Rules Reveals from the Oblivion Oath Twitch game! (was sleepy sea cat)


Second Edition

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Dark Archive

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Nice, two new "reveals" that I absolutely loved at first "sight": how 'Twin Feint' works, and how natural 20 and 1 give you +1/-1 rank of success. Especially the latter rule just makes sense! Great work, guys! :)


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Joe M. wrote:
JasonBulmahn: @danielmercelessNope, it is just a Athletics check, Acrobotics check, or an unarmed attack vs the grappler's Fort DC.

Calling it based on this: All characters are going to be trained in unarmed (or did we already know that?). That's how the system will deal with untrained being no bonus; unarmed strike was added as a way to break a grapple so that characters untrained in both Athletics and Acrobatics can still have a chance to escape.

Liberty's Edge

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MaxAstro wrote:
Calling it based on this: All characters are going to be trained in unarmed (or did we already know that?).

We did indeed already know that (or, at least, that was true in later playtest iterations). The new info there is that you can use an unarmed attack to break a grapple (something that was not true of the playtest).

I agree that it's a nice solution, too.

Dark Archive

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Oblivion Oath campaign has reminded me how much I respect and love Jason as a GM. Not only is he (IMHO) one of the best map and adventure designers in the business, he's also great at pacing and descriptions. And Jason absolutely shines at roleplaying, I just love his style at portraying various NPCs and also his impeccable "dramatic sense" (if that is the proper word I'm looking for) when it comes to cliffhangers.

I know a lot of people respect Matthew Mercer, but his style is too frantic and breath-taking for me; as a non-native English speaker I always miss something crucial in his descriptions (and his habit to always use real-world accents with NPCs irritates me a bit).

As for Chris Perkins, in my opinion he's fantastic when it comes to maps and adventure design, but he appears to be a bit uncertain and indecisive when it comes to improvising and roleplaying.

Jason really is the "total package" as a GM! :)


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Jason's a good GM and fun to listen to. The way he's excited about telling everyone the next dramatic plot development really shines through, and it reminds me of my older brother GMing for us when I was a little kid. Sort of excited to tell the story, but also enjoying teaching us how to play too.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Aww.. shucks folks. I am just happy to have the opportunity to share my stories with all of you. This really is the first chance I have ever had to tell a long-form story and share it with a wide audience. And I really have to give credit to all of the great players I have had a chance to play with over the years, and this group is no exception. Great players make GMs better!


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Aww.. shucks folks. I am just happy to have the opportunity to share my stories with all of you. This really is the first chance I have ever had to tell a long-form story and share it with a wide audience. And I really have to give credit to all of the great players I have had a chance to play with over the years, and this group is no exception. Great players make GMs better!

You're saying having an evil lich inviting hero parties into his dungeon and having his hapless minions (ie: the players) setup traps so that he can impress the vampress two dungeons over isn't long-form story-telling? ;)

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Gregg Reece wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Aww.. shucks folks. I am just happy to have the opportunity to share my stories with all of you. This really is the first chance I have ever had to tell a long-form story and share it with a wide audience. And I really have to give credit to all of the great players I have had a chance to play with over the years, and this group is no exception. Great players make GMs better!
You're saying having an evil lich inviting hero parties into his dungeon and having his hapless minions (ie: the players) setup traps so that he can impress the vampress two dungeons over isn't long-form story-telling? ;)

Well.. I mean, other than that one!


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Gregg Reece wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Aww.. shucks folks. I am just happy to have the opportunity to share my stories with all of you. This really is the first chance I have ever had to tell a long-form story and share it with a wide audience. And I really have to give credit to all of the great players I have had a chance to play with over the years, and this group is no exception. Great players make GMs better!
You're saying having an evil lich inviting hero parties into his dungeon and having his hapless minions (ie: the players) setup traps so that he can impress the vampress two dungeons over isn't long-form story-telling? ;)
Well.. I mean, other than that one!

Wait what??? What is this other one??? Where is it??? Where can I find it????? I NEED MORE JASON BULMAHN IN MY LIFE!!!!!! Once a week isn't enough for me... :'(


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R0b0tBadgr wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Gregg Reece wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Aww.. shucks folks. I am just happy to have the opportunity to share my stories with all of you. This really is the first chance I have ever had to tell a long-form story and share it with a wide audience. And I really have to give credit to all of the great players I have had a chance to play with over the years, and this group is no exception. Great players make GMs better!
You're saying having an evil lich inviting hero parties into his dungeon and having his hapless minions (ie: the players) setup traps so that he can impress the vampress two dungeons over isn't long-form story-telling? ;)
Well.. I mean, other than that one!
Wait what??? What is this other one??? Where is it??? Where can I find it????? I NEED MORE JASON BULMAHN IN MY LIFE!!!!!! Once a week isn't enough for me... :'(

It's a session game he's been slowly developing over the years to torture/amuse convention-goers. I got to play it at PaizoCon one year. It's gloriously silly.

Paizo Employee Designer

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R0b0tBadgr wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Gregg Reece wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Aww.. shucks folks. I am just happy to have the opportunity to share my stories with all of you. This really is the first chance I have ever had to tell a long-form story and share it with a wide audience. And I really have to give credit to all of the great players I have had a chance to play with over the years, and this group is no exception. Great players make GMs better!
You're saying having an evil lich inviting hero parties into his dungeon and having his hapless minions (ie: the players) setup traps so that he can impress the vampress two dungeons over isn't long-form story-telling? ;)
Well.. I mean, other than that one!
Wait what??? What is this other one??? Where is it??? Where can I find it????? I NEED MORE JASON BULMAHN IN MY LIFE!!!!!! Once a week isn't enough for me... :'(

You can always watch him play the Kingmaker video game in his twitch stream! There's a loyalty reward for watching enough where he runs you through a deadly chat dungeon.


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Mark Seifter wrote:

You can always watch him play the Kingmaker video game in his twitch stream! There's a loyalty reward for watching enough where he runs you through.

!

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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So.. just to nip this tangent, here is stuff about my other videos and games... but let's drop it after this and return to Oblivion Oath speculation.

Spoiler:

There is a single video of me GMing a number of luminaries at Dragoncon a few years back, including Jim Butcher and Richard Garriot. You can find it over on my YouTube channel. It is, in fact, a similar story set up to the adventure mentioned here (working a the minion of a lich).

As for the Kingmaker stream, that is just me playing the CRPG, with the occasional interlude of running someone in chat through a persistent world dungeon.. and usually killing them. I stream on Tuesdays at 8pm (pacific) and Saturdays at 4pm (pacific) over on my Twitch channel.


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The +1/-1 tier of success dealio I definitely like. Automatic successes have a tendency to get players assuming that a 20 gets them anything they want, and I've played at many tables where a player would just immediately roll for something without prompting from the GM. The old systems had rules about not rolling for things in the first place if they're obviously impossible, but then it becomes an argument about whether it'd be possible or not and it still sort of traps a GM who mistakenly allowed a roll without fully understanding what it was the player was trying to accomplish.

With the new system, anything that's obviously a very high DC is just mechanically impossible to succeed at, the best you can hope for is to not critically fail. A player doesn't necessarily know what is and isn't possible in PF2, so being able to read how crits work and not even get the idea in your head that anything is possible with a nat 20 sets the right expectations. If you try to jump over a three-story building and your 20 doesn't even get you up to the windows on the second story, you don't assume that the GM is being arbitrary, you just assume the DC is just too high.

Or, more commonly, a 20 on a social roll doesn't immediately allow you to convince the king to give you the kingdom unless you've actually got the Diplomacy ranks to back that up. The old rule of thumb that something that is literally impossible shouldn't be rolled kind of breaks down in these sorts of scenarios, as people can very easily imagine people behaving irrationally in the presence of a sufficiently charismatic personality without really considering all the factors that have to go into convincing someone to truly act against their own interests in such an extreme manner. A GM stuck in that scenario has a harder time arguing why it's "jump to the moon" impossible, so altering it so the rules don't imply it's possible helps.


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Been loving the conversation here, but I'm really looking forward to discussing the inclusion of rules about how to honor my soup oath in 2e.:-D

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Erpa wrote:
Been loving the conversation here, but I'm really looking forward to discussing the inclusion of rules about how to honor my soup oath in 2e.:-D

You are going to love the 84 page chapter on soup oaths in the core rulebook! ;)


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

But, that either means the soup oath was a pre-arranged script, or you've re-opened the rule book for edits... :)


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
NielsenE wrote:
But, that either means the soup oath was a pre-arranged script, or you've re-opened the rule book for edits... :)

If you talk about Zel’s, it’s a Stew Oath. Not the same thing.. that will come in a following book.

It was home brewed for him.

Dark Archive

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Elfteiroh wrote:


It was home brewed for him.

Pretty sure it was brewed for the entire party ;)


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Gregg Reece wrote:
You're saying having an evil lich inviting hero parties into his dungeon and having his hapless minions (ie: the players) setup traps so that he can impress the vampress two dungeons over isn't long-form story-telling? ;)

Isn't "evil lich" redundant? :-)


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Matthew Downie wrote:
Note, though, that 300 archers with +7 to hit fighting an ancient dragon with 37AC would land 15 hits per round. (Exactly the same as if it had 28AC.) There are going to be certain weird tipping points between 'invincible' and 'has to fight extremely cautiously to survive'.

Actually, in this case, the archers would all still miss.

20+7 = 27. Which misses by 10. A critical miss. The nat 20 upgrades it to a miss. The AC would have to be 36 for your example.

But I loved this rule reveal when I heard it.
The span of critical fail to critical success on most things is one of my fav PF2 rules things.


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Ed Reppert wrote:
Gregg Reece wrote:
You're saying having an evil lich inviting hero parties into his dungeon and having his hapless minions (ie: the players) setup traps so that he can impress the vampress two dungeons over isn't long-form story-telling? ;)
Isn't "evil lich" redundant? :-)

"Are you a good lich or a bad lich?"

-- Glenda the Good Lich of the North

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

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Any ruler who hires 10,000 1st-level archers to deal with a dragon problem is horrible at allocating resources and deserves a scorched kingdom.


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Charlie Brooks wrote:
Any ruler who hires 10,000 1st-level archers to deal with a dragon problem is horrible at allocating resources and deserves a scorched kingdom.

Oh I don't know. The way wealth by level scales, 10,000 1st level characters might still be cheaper than 4 20th level characters. Especially if the contract didn't include payments to next of kin.


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Settle the difference? 8,000 2nd lv archers. More realistically?, ~7,000 archers, ~700 clerics, ~200 bards and ~100 siege engine crew members.

Any way the power level is over 7000! (jk)


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Charlie Brooks wrote:
Any ruler who hires 10,000 1st-level archers to deal with a dragon problem is horrible at allocating resources and deserves a scorched kingdom.

If you already have a military with 10,000 archers, it's pretty efficient. The ones who die, you don't have to pay.

Of course, before risking your entire force, you should probably check if you're in a bounded accuracy system, if dragons have DR10/Magic, and if 20 is an auto-hit. Also, if you're using critical miss effects, you might lose a significant proportion of your army with every volley.

Or, if you're in Game of Thrones, you'll find ship-mounted siege engines are extremely easy to aim.

Silver Crusade

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I didn't notice too much rules content in today's session. But they did announce the schedule for the next few weeks so I figured I'd post that here.

Because of conventions coming up (PaizoCon, UK Game Expo), for the next month or so the schedule will be:

Thurs 16 May: Ep. 7 (pre-recorded)
Thurs 23 May: no episode
Sun 26 May: Oblivion Oath panel at PaizoCon
Thurs 30 May: Ep. 8 (pre-recorded)
Thurs 06 June: marathon of all episodes, starting earlier
Thurs 13 June: Ep. 9 (pre-recorded)
Thurs 20 June: Ep. 10 (back to live play)

Jason also said they'll try to have Paizo folks in the chat for the prerecorded episodes.


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The disease stuff was 'new' (think it was the same as the playtest) but newly confirmed for 2e?


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I think I heard Jason say that any skill can be used to recall knowledge, allowing heal to be used as such

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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We were able to finish all three pre-recorded episodes today! It's not often I get to spend 4 hours at work gaming, and today turned out to be pretty fun.


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Sara Marie wrote:
We were able to finish all three pre-recorded episodes today! It's not often I get to spend 4 hours at work gaming, and today turned out to be pretty fun.

Yeah!

Can't wait to watch them! :D

Vorsk, Follower or Erastil wrote:
I think I heard Jason say that any skill can be used to recall knowledge, allowing heal to be used as such

... Now that you say this, I don't think that was the assumption in the playtest book, but my mind was already on that track, and didn't realize it was something "new". o_o

(And it's medecine btw. :P Heal is the spell.)


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Medicine and Craft got an extra recall knowledge use halfway through the playtest - it wouldn’t surprise me if more if not all skills got the same treatment.


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Interesting. Does anyone recall any of the OO characters using or referencing a Lore skill? Because if any skill can be used for Knowledge, then Lore can easily be replaced by doing the same for Practice a Profession.


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FedoraFerret wrote:
Interesting. Does anyone recall any of the OO characters using or referencing a Lore skill? Because if any skill can be used for Knowledge, then Lore can easily be replaced by doing the same for Practice a Profession.

I don’t think they’re going to scrap the ability to be a good cook. A lot of people like that sort of thing, myself included.


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FedoraFerret wrote:
Interesting. Does anyone recall any of the OO characters using or referencing a Lore skill? Because if any skill can be used for Knowledge, then Lore can easily be replaced by doing the same for Practice a Profession.

Lore skills can already be used to Recall Knowledge. What change exactly do you think is relevant here?

Silver Crusade

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For reference, the ghoul fever bit starts about HERE.

The portion relevant to this discussion starts about 3 minutes later, HERE:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Go ahead. This is a Knowledge check using Medicine. Most skills you can now use them to seek knowledge in their area of expertise ... You can also try a Religion check ... because the ghoul is undead, Religion also covers things about it. So if you like you can make a Religion check instead of a medicine check.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Interesting. Does anyone recall any of the OO characters using or referencing a Lore skill? Because if any skill can be used for Knowledge, then Lore can easily be replaced by doing the same for Practice a Profession.
Lore skills can already be used to Recall Knowledge. What change exactly do you think is relevant here?

The change where the thing that Lore was used for, having specialized knowledge without having to invest in the appropriate knowledge skill, is now covered by having any appropriate skill (e.g. you no longer need to invest in Nature to know about medicinal herbs, nor have Lore (herbalist/doctor/whatever) because you can use the Medicine skill instead). However, as Quid pointed out that doesn't cover the use of skills for certain professions. So I'll amend and say "hey, maybe this means they can rename Lore to Profession so I can stop hating the skill name so much."

Silver Crusade

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Sara Marie wrote:

We were able to finish all three pre-recorded episodes today! It's not often I get to spend 4 hours at work gaming, and today turned out to be pretty fun.

Are all the hero points gone? Just so I know if I need to keep gifting subs to keep you guys stocked!


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Joe M. wrote:

For reference, the ghoul fever bit starts about HERE.

The portion relevant to this discussion starts about 3 minutes later, HERE:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Go ahead. This is a Knowledge check using Medicine. Most skills you can now use them to seek knowledge in their area of expertise ... You can also try a Religion check ... because the ghoul is undead, Religion also covers things about it. So if you like you can make a Religion check instead of a medicine check.

Ah! Most! Not "every" then. And yeah, pretty sure that by the end of the playtest, "most" could be used too. But yeah, Lore doesn't just let you know about a subset of a knowledge base, it makes you "specialized" in that subset, often getting the DC lower, while an "appropriate, but not used for that usually" skill would have an higher DC, like Jason said in the same stream. I don't remember exactly when, but at one time he proposed another skill for a roll, but at an higher DC (prompting Owen and Sara Marie to switch to that skill.)

Dataphiles

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Ghoul Fever (PF2e Playtest):

Ghoul Fever (disease)
Elves are immune.
Saving Throw Fortitude DC 13;
Stage 1 carrier with no ill effect (1 day);
Stage 2 2d6 damage and regains half as many Hit Points from all healing (1 day);
Stage 3 as step 2 (1 day);
Stage 4 2d6 damage and gains no benefit from healing (1 day);
Stage 5 as step 4 (1 day);
Stage 6 dead, and rises as a ghoul the next midnight.

Random note, Elves were also immune to ghoul paralysis.
Paralysis (arcane, necromancy) Any non-elf, living creature hit by a ghoul’s attack must succeed at a DC 12 Fortitude save or become paralyzed. It gets a new save at the end of each of its turns, and the DC decreases by 1 cumulatively on each such save.

Paizo Employee Starfinder Design Lead

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Cori Marie wrote:
Sara Marie wrote:

We were able to finish all three pre-recorded episodes today! It's not often I get to spend 4 hours at work gaming, and today turned out to be pretty fun.

Are all the hero points gone? Just so I know if I need to keep gifting subs to keep you guys stocked!

Qundle has ONE left after all of that.

Paizo Employee Starfinder Design Lead

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Joe M. wrote:
Jason also said they'll try to have Paizo folks in the chat for the prerecorded episodes.

That's certainly my *plan*, subject to the impact of reality.

Silver Crusade

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Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Sara Marie wrote:

We were able to finish all three pre-recorded episodes today! It's not often I get to spend 4 hours at work gaming, and today turned out to be pretty fun.

Are all the hero points gone? Just so I know if I need to keep gifting subs to keep you guys stocked!
Qundle has ONE left after all of that.

So you're saying you WOULD have two had you not angered the gods

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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I plan to stay in the twitch chat when the pre recorded episodes go up. I'm looking forward to being able to see the chat reactions as things happen!

And THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU to the folks who've gotten me Hero Points. I feel like I have not adequately expressed on camera how much I appreciate it. I've put a lot of thought into Carina and it feels really validating and cool to have folks enjoy the experience enough to gift me/her Hero Points. I hope I use them, or have used them >:-) , in a worthy way!

Silver Crusade

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Sara Marie wrote:

I plan to stay in the twitch chat when the pre recorded episodes go up. I'm looking forward to being able to see the chat reactions as things happen!

And THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU to the folks who've gotten me Hero Points. I feel like I have not adequately expressed on camera how much I appreciate it. I've put a lot of thought into Carina and it feels really validating and cool to have folks enjoy the experience enough to gift me/her Hero Points. I hope I use them, or have used them >:-) , in a worthy way!

Happy to help! Eventually I'll get one to everyone, but it takes time to build up that GP!

Silver Crusade

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Well everyone except Jason, NightTrace does enough of that already

Liberty's Edge

Didn't someone use GP in an earlier session to name an NPC? I can't remember if that has happened yet.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Pawns Subscriber

NightTrace did (when he wasn't adding to Jason's villain points). I believe Dan said that his NPC showed up this week.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cori Marie wrote:
NightTrace did (when he wasn't adding to Jason's villain points). I believe Dan said that his NPC showed up this week.

Yep, the named started with "K" and DIDN'T finish with "ina", at the complete surprise of the whole chat!


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Karma the priestess of Desna?

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