Rules Reveals from the Oblivion Oath Twitch game! (was sleepy sea cat)


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

Would "Focus points = ChaMod+OtherStatMod" be too many focus points?

For the already Cha-based classes, we could have the Sorcerer's other focus stat be determined by their bloodline, the Bard's other focus stat be determined by their muse, and just let the Paladin do Str+Cha.

More focus points seems more fun, particularly since some powers cost 2 or 3 focus to use.

It depends on how strong focus spells are, I guess. Paizo seems to have very particular ideas on what would be too much. The Resonance test really ramped up how potent powers were, but made Focus points a much more limited resource. So you got weak powers with lots of spell points, or strong powers with few focus points.


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I’d rather have the second, honestly. Most of those “3+stat uses” powers in P1 never saw the light of day past level one.


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I really hope the final rules will be like the Resonance Test variant.

1) Focus based on main stat is boring. Its bonus will always be +3 or +4 at first level and you will always max your main stat on ability increases. At this rate they could as well fix Focus to 4+whatever. Basing it on CHA will at least have some variance.

2) Weak abilities with many uses are just not as spectacular and rewarding than strong abilities with few uses.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I strongly preferred the Focus powers from the Resonance Test as well. A more limited pool (that isn't guaranteed to be big because it's tied to your main stat) of more meaningful powers is what I am hoping we get.

Liberty's Edge

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I'm totally on board with a small pool of potent powers. I remain unconvinced that being Cha-based is a good way to achieve that. Or a good way to make Cha relevant.

It only applies to four Classes, after all. Monk, Cleric, Wizard, and Druid. It technically applies to Paladin, Bard, and Sorcerer as well, but for them it's Cha-based either way, and they already have incentives for high Cha.

So...this reduces Focus for Druids and Wizards and slightly for Clerics (since they were already incentivized via Channeling to buy Cha), and forces Monks to be Cha-based rather than Wis based. It's basically just a power down for Wizards and Druids. I don't think that's necessary, personally, and thus don't find this solution compelling.

I'd much rather stick with Prime Stat based Focus, but see something else entirely different added to Cha. We'll see whether that happens or not.


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Part of the problem with having focus spells be powerful but few and far between is that these things cost feats. I don't really like the idea of spending a class feat on a focus spell that I will get to use maybe once a day when I could instead pick something I can use in every combat.

Like sure, in PF1 a lot of the domain powers never got used past the low levels, but a whole lot of the ki powers did. It's hard to justify taking Abundant Step over a style feat when you just won't be able to use Abundant Step more than a couple times a day.


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Just my 2 cents but I really don't want focus spells to be powerful but only a few uses per day. That's the role of top tier spell slots.

Focus spells are the things that differentiate the sub-classes by giving them something unique to them. Only a Fire Domain cleric can cast Fire Ray, Only Angelic sorcerers can cast Angelic Halo. Since it is such a character defining mechanic I would prefer it be usable more often.

Similarly for focus spell only classes I think it is better for them to have more, less powerful, focus spells that they can use multiple times per day so that they don't have such drastic changes in their play style between the few combats where they have focus points and the rest of the time. The Monk who invests in ki should play like a ki wielding warrior most of the time not only during a boss fight.


And this is what the balance point is tricky. Lots of different desires for what focus spells are. I do thibk they need to be stronger than they were in the playtest, because many were quite bad, but maybe top tier spell slot strong. However, some were that strong. The Paladin channel life springs to mind. And you can't necessarily just give one class better powers because of Multiclassing.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
And this is what the balance point is tricky. Lots of different desires for what focus spells are. I do thibk they need to be stronger than they were in the playtest, because many were quite bad, but maybe top tier spell slot strong. However, some were that strong. The Paladin channel life springs to mind. And you can't necessarily just give one class better powers because of Multiclassing.

Couldn't that be solved by having the more powerful focus spells use 2 points? If channel life cost 2 points instead of 1 it wouldn't be so abuseable.

Of course all the theory-crafting is rather mute at this point since the books are off to the printers already.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

I think focus powers with scaling results based on how many points you spend would be great. We shall see how the devs solved this


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The Raven Black wrote:
I think focus powers with scaling results based on how many points you spend would be great. We shall see how the devs solved this

Psion?


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I hope I'm wrong, but it seems from the wording of the DM that you still have to prepare each individual casting of a spell, and that you have to decide at the beginning of the day whether or not you want to prepare a spell at a higher spell level.
Again, I hope I'm wrong, but if this is the case... that is SO BAD!!! >_<

Silver Crusade

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ClanPsi wrote:

I hope I'm wrong, but it seems from the wording of the DM that you still have to prepare each individual casting of a spell, and that you have to decide at the beginning of the day whether or not you want to prepare a spell at a higher spell level.

Again, I hope I'm wrong, but if this is the case... that is SO BAD!!! >_<

aka, PF2 Wizards still use Vancian casting. We've known that for a long time.

BUT, keep in mind Update 1.6 gave all Wizards the Quick Preparation class feature at level 1: take 10 minutes (the same short-rest increment as a bunch of between-combat abilities) to swap out one of your spell slots. It seems likely that remains in the final.


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I'm mostly with Bardarok on focus spells. I liked the design space I feel they were meant to cover, with 1-point spells being sort of a staple ability but not an at-will thing like Cantrips (and consequently being stronger) while also being thematic to your specific choices. And higher cost powers should be serious flexes of your specialization. That said I do think a lot of focus spells needed a bit of work but I really don't want to see the amount of spell points/focus we get reduced.

Tempest Surge was a good example of what I liked about them. It has damage comparable to a full level blast spell or at least close and can give a minor debuff and is usable several times per day. Having something like this encourages diversifying your actual spell choices a bit because you've got multiple uses of a solid magic attack, something a Storm Druid likely wants. I also like powers that are quite good but somewhat situational like Ki Rush. I think it's good that it's not an obvious choice for every situation because you only have so many uses and this lends itself to more naturally pacing them out, if that makes any sense.

TL;DR I hope we can get both our several per day staple moves and our major specialization flexes out of Focus Spells in the final book.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Cleaned up a post complaining about Vancian casting. Survey responses told us to keep the system, so we did.

As for focus spells, the new system works really well and I am sure you will all find out more about it in the coming streams.


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Not surprised on above. The majority of RPG systems don't have Vancian casting, so there is plenty of options for those who don't like it. The audience who do like it or don't have a problem with it have been served by D&D and Pathfinder. Fiddling around the edges of it seems to have been well accepted by this crowd, but expecting it to disappear ignores that is what the audience of this game has self-selected for. Vancian magic meta-physics are part of Golarion, and anybody's failure to embrace that conceit as part of role-playing does not detract from it's value and functionality for those who do embrace the system (with alternatives to classic prepared Casting of course also existing in the game world).

I am curious to see what happened to Quick Prep... It was handed out for free in 1.6 update as mentioned above, with rationale that it was very widely/disproportionately chosen... But then the board feed-back response seemed to be "It was heavily taken because it was powerful option, just giving it for free to everybody isn't necessary. Raising power of other options and/or lowering Quick Prep's power could both service goal of equally attractive choices." With weak points of spells otherwise buffed, it doesn't seem like there remains a clear need to hand out this "powerful option" for free to every Wizard. /shrug

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Reminder: this thread is probably going to be easier to follow long term if we stick to rules spoilers and take deeper rules debate to a new thread (feel free if you create one to link it in here to draw other people to the discussion). One way to tell if you should move a discussion to it's own thread is if you find yourself posting more than one or two replies debating rules theory and you've moved away from discussing it's application or reveal in Oblivion Oath.

Silver Crusade

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Cleaned up a post complaining about Vancian casting. Survey responses told us to keep the system, so we did.

As for focus spells, the new system works really well and I am sure you will all find out more about it in the coming streams.

Shamen about the Vancian casting, looking forward to alternatives to appear over the next couple of years.

Powers worked pretty well for me during the playtest, so I am looking forward to more details.


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Was watching the episode 2 in YouTube, don't know if it was mentioned but Lay on Hands is a power and it healed 6 points of damage and didn't have any dice roll.


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Dante Doom wrote:
Was watching the episode 2 in YouTube, don't know if it was mentioned but Lay on Hands is a power and it healed 6 points of damage and didn't have any dice roll.

Missed the lack of dice rolling. I wonder how the value is determined. The spell proficiency on Karina would only be 4. Level+2 for trained is 3, and I think she only has a +1 charisma mod.


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I hope they keep Quick Prep intact. Really helps handle Vancian in this edition where slots are more valuable.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Dante Doom wrote:
Was watching the episode 2 in YouTube, don't know if it was mentioned but Lay on Hands is a power and it healed 6 points of damage and didn't have any dice roll.
Missed the lack of dice rolling. I wonder how the value is determined. The spell proficiency on Karina would only be 4. Level+2 for trained is 3, and I think she only has a +1 charisma mod.

5 + SAM, with it going up each new spell level, perhaps? If that follows the same increase rate as the Playtest, theoretically that'd be +10 every spell level for 15+SAM at level 3.


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Cleric spent 10 minutes praying to regain focus point. It did not require a night of rest. It seems they only have 1 point?


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ChibiNyan wrote:
Cleric spent 10 minutes praying to regain focus point. It did not require a night of rest. It seems they only have 1 point?

She is a Cha 12 Paladin so 1 point makes sense if its based on Cha mod.


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Bardarok wrote:
She is a Cha 12 Paladin so 1 point makes sense if its based on Cha mod.

Who, Carina? Just nitpicking, but she's a redeemer, not a pally...


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Roswynn wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
She is a Cha 12 Paladin so 1 point makes sense if its based on Cha mod.
Who, Carina? Just nitpicking, but she's a redeemer, not a pally...

Yes you are of course correct. I need to learn the new terminology.


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Bardarok wrote:
Roswynn wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
She is a Cha 12 Paladin so 1 point makes sense if its based on Cha mod.
Who, Carina? Just nitpicking, but she's a redeemer, not a pally...
Yes you are of course correct. I need to learn the new terminology.

Yeah, this is gonna be a fun new terminology cycle to re-learn. Paths, Champions, Proficiency, the 4 degrees of success... Woohoo, new words to use and old words to throw away!


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nick1wasd wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
Roswynn wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
She is a Cha 12 Paladin so 1 point makes sense if its based on Cha mod.
Who, Carina? Just nitpicking, but she's a redeemer, not a pally...
Yes you are of course correct. I need to learn the new terminology.
Yeah, this is gonna be a fun new terminology cycle to re-learn. Paths, Champions, Proficiency, the 4 degrees of success... Woohoo, new words to use and old words to throw away!

You must unlearn what you have learned!

Seriously, how many times say this I must?


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Gnomes (or at least some) are like chameleons and can change at least their hair color.
(as 1 action, not clear if daily thing or as many times as they want)

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

For anyone checking this thread for updates from today's stream, the Focus thing and chameleon gnome hairdye were really it.


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There was treat wounds again but I don't think it was any different from before DC 15 heals 2d8 takes 10 min.

The Fatigue condition that Jason mentioned was a little less bad than in the playtest. Only -1 to AC and saves no mention of Hampered 5 or of the penalties increasing with every action you take.... but they didn't get into combat so maybe those are still there and just didn't come up.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber
Bardarok wrote:

There was treat wounds again but I don't think it was any different from before DC 15 heals 2d8 takes 10 min.

The Fatigue condition that Jason mentioned was a little less bad than in the playtest. Only -1 to AC and saves no mention of Hampered 5 or of the penalties increasing with every action you take.... but they didn't get into combat so maybe those are still there and just didn't come up.

They also didn't benefit from exploration tactics, if I recall (due to fatigue).

Silver Crusade

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Bardarok wrote:

There was treat wounds again but I don't think it was any different from before DC 15 heals 2d8 takes 10 min.

The Fatigue condition that Jason mentioned was a little less bad than in the playtest. Only -1 to AC and saves no mention of Hampered 5 or of the penalties increasing with every action you take.... but they didn't get into combat so maybe those are still there and just didn't come up.

I'm not sure if this was in the playtest, but here Jason mentioned that "since you're Trained, you can only aim for the lowest DC, which is 15" (paraphrase, but accurate and I think pretty close to exactly how he said it). So it sounds like increasing proficiency allows you to attempt higher DCs (presumably for more healing).

As for combat, the closing scene sets up what might be a fight for next week. So we might learn more.

Mostly, though, I'm hoping that the party levels up soon. One hour a week is slow, let's push the game along to some higher-level content!

Liberty's Edge

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Joe M. wrote:
I'm not sure if this was in the playtest, but here Jason mentioned that "since you're Trained, you can only aim for the lowest DC, which is 15" (paraphrase, but accurate and I think pretty close to exactly how he said it). So it sounds like increasing proficiency allows you to attempt higher DCs (presumably for more healing).

This is precisely consistent with the previous reveals on how Treat Wounds works now. Still, it's definitely good to have confirmation.


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Bardarok wrote:

There was treat wounds again but I don't think it was any different from before DC 15 heals 2d8 takes 10 min.

The Fatigue condition that Jason mentioned was a little less bad than in the playtest. Only -1 to AC and saves no mention of Hampered 5 or of the penalties increasing with every action you take.... but they didn't get into combat so maybe those are still there and just didn't come up.

He also said "you don't get the benefits from any Exploration actions". That's a pretty big penalty of a different sort - might stop you from using something like Stealth for initiative.


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There's a couple points where you can see someone's character sheet, from a not very close perspective. Zel's sheet can be seen at 14:27, for example. But it's not nearly zoomed in enough for me to read anything on it-- someone with a bigger high rez screen could try and go all CSI on it if they felt motivated to.

As is, all you can really tell is the general look of the sheet, and since I'm pretty sure Jason said they weren't using the final version anyway, that's probably not worth digging into.


Also I might add that Playtest Fatigued does exactly the same as this version of fatigued, just a note...

Silver Crusade

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Captain Morgan wrote:
As is, all you can really tell is the general look of the sheet, and since I'm pretty sure Jason said they weren't using the final version anyway, that's probably not worth digging into.

I have the contrary impression. If I recall correctly, in the replay chat last Saturday Jason heavily implied that the character sheets were the final version. (And why wouldn't they be? The book's off to the printer, I'm sure the character sheet is finalized.)


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Joe M. wrote:
I'm not sure if this was in the playtest, but here Jason mentioned that "since you're Trained, you can only aim for the lowest DC, which is 15" (paraphrase, but accurate and I think pretty close to exactly how he said it). So it sounds like increasing proficiency allows you to attempt higher DCs (presumably for more healing).

I just watched episode 3, but one thing I noticed is the "but that's all you can do for right now" after the treat wounds was done. I don't know if that's just due to the circumstances, given what happened next, or not, but it seems that maybe, as opposed to the playtest, the treat wounds ability bolsters the target for some period of time (just speculation, but probably less than the 1 day that the critical fail of the playtest had). So maybe this is a change from the latter days of the playtest, in that mundane healing (and again speculation, but possibly other 10 minute activities) is limited by time, more than just the time required for the activity (speculation, again, but I'd wager maybe, whether it be healing or regaining focus spells, ow what not, it might be once an hour, or something like that?)


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1hr bolstering on success. It’s been confirmed a while ago.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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As a reminder, episodes 1, 2, and 3 are up on the Paizo YouTube, and we are streaming episode 4 today on the Paizo twitch at noon pacific! See you all there!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber
Tholomyes wrote:
So maybe this is a change from the latter days of the playtest, in that mundane healing (and again speculation, but possibly other 10 minute activities) is limited by time, more than just the time required for the activity (speculation, again, but I'd wager maybe, whether it be healing or regaining focus spells, ow what not, it might be once an hour, or something like that?)

This resonates nicely with the 1 hour waiting time casually mentioned in the Iconic story about the Cleric who seems to have regained focus points through some time and appropriate actions :-)


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
As a reminder, episodes 1, 2, and 3 are up on the Paizo YouTube, and we are streaming episode 4 today on the Paizo twitch at noon pacific! See you all there!

ALL HAIL THE LIVING GOD!

Jokes aside, I'm doing the "Masks of Living God" converted for 2ed playtest rules, while we are waiting for the final rules.

Seeing you play a Herald of Razmir was so cool that I msure that will steal some of the dogmas and ideas for my game.

And the cool thing is that it's the first time my players are in Golarion, so they do not even know much more than the characters about Razmir!

Silver Crusade

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The Raven Black wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
So maybe this is a change from the latter days of the playtest, in that mundane healing (and again speculation, but possibly other 10 minute activities) is limited by time, more than just the time required for the activity (speculation, again, but I'd wager maybe, whether it be healing or regaining focus spells, ow what not, it might be once an hour, or something like that?)
This resonates nicely with the 1 hour waiting time casually mentioned in the Iconic story about the Cleric who seems to have regained focus points through some time and appropriate actions :-)

In case you missed it—in episode 2 the Paladin regained 1 focus point by praying for 10 minutes. So that explains the mention in the iconic story.


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Fast Track experience is 800 xp per level up.

Other than that I didn't catch any new mechanics in this weeks episode. Confirmation of the 10 min focus regen for champions and the 1 hour bolstered for treat wounds.


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Bardarok wrote:

Fast Track experience is 800 xp per level up.

Other than that I didn't catch any new mechanics in this weeks episode. Confirmation of the 10 min focus regen for champions and the 1 hour bolstered for treat wounds.

One other thing that was confirmed is that Champions can regen their focus multiple times between rests.


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Ventnor wrote:
Bardarok wrote:

Fast Track experience is 800 xp per level up.

Other than that I didn't catch any new mechanics in this weeks episode. Confirmation of the 10 min focus regen for champions and the 1 hour bolstered for treat wounds.

One other thing that was confirmed is that Champions can regen their focus multiple times between rests.

Hopefully, one can extrapolate from this that other classes with focus can recharge that focus multiple times per day. Abundant Step is much more attractive if you can use it many times per day but only a few times in quick succession, rather than only a few times per day.


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Tectorman wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Bardarok wrote:

Fast Track experience is 800 xp per level up.

Other than that I didn't catch any new mechanics in this weeks episode. Confirmation of the 10 min focus regen for champions and the 1 hour bolstered for treat wounds.

One other thing that was confirmed is that Champions can regen their focus multiple times between rests.
Hopefully, one can extrapolate from this that other classes with focus can recharge that focus multiple times per day. Abundant Step is much more attractive if you can use it many times per day but only a few times in quick succession, rather than only a few times per day.

I agree but maybe we should take focus point discussion to another thread if that is something people want to talk about.

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