Rules Reveals from the Oblivion Oath Twitch game! (was sleepy sea cat)


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

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Thomas the Gank Engine wrote:
Thinking about it more, untrained perception (with its ubiquity) would mean +1 feat tax essentially so I retract my previous statement about liking it for what it's worth.

Or, in Qundle's case, a feet tax.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
I'm not sure adding casting stats makes up for not targeting TAC. An optimized caster could have 18 in their casting stat and 16 in Dex at level 1. Switching their casting stat in for accuracy only represents a 1 point bump in to hit, and potentially nothing at all from levels 5-9.

I think of more "using casting stat" as a positive since it increases the creative space for spellcasters. After all, there is no reason all evokers need to be dextrous individuals... many of them should be average and there should be some clumsy ones.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
There are of course various ways they could have fixed this. Having cantrips target AC while spells target reflex or reflex DC spring to mind. I'd assume since they specifically were increasing spell chances of success that they are factoring in attack roll spells and not just monster saving throws.

There could be something here, because Chill Touch is now only a save, no more "Touch attack" roll required. As seen with the Wizard.


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Elfteiroh wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
There are of course various ways they could have fixed this. Having cantrips target AC while spells target reflex or reflex DC spring to mind. I'd assume since they specifically were increasing spell chances of success that they are factoring in attack roll spells and not just monster saving throws.
There could be something here, because Chill Touch is now only a save, no more "Touch attack" roll required. As seen with the Wizard.

Which seems kinda weird from an ingame standpoint if it's still Chill Touch. No matter how good at dodging you are, a wizard can always just reach out and touch you, no prob. What if you're invisible?


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#PicklesAreMagic

The GM called Jason was sat
At the head of the table for that
We all heard him say
Next week's giveaway
Is the map of the Sleepy Seacat.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
There are of course various ways they could have fixed this. Having cantrips target AC while spells target reflex or reflex DC spring to mind. I'd assume since they specifically were increasing spell chances of success that they are factoring in attack roll spells and not just monster saving throws.
There could be something here, because Chill Touch is now only a save, no more "Touch attack" roll required. As seen with the Wizard.
Which seems kinda weird from an ingame standpoint if it's still Chill Touch. No matter how good at dodging you are, a wizard can always just reach out and touch you, no prob. What if you're invisible?

You could probably just rationalize it as a feeling of being touched by cold, or a spectral hand that does the reaching for you.

It was a staple of the Magus Spellstrike though, so that aspect of it is a casualty I'm not in love with, but not a huge loss.


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I've always liked the complicated interplay of ability scores, but I will concede that the number of times I've had to gently coerce a new player who wanted to play a caster into picking up Dex to actually hit with certain spells was a bit much.

I'll be happy if there are still plenty of spells that summon something that you can wield like a weapon, like produce flame or that flame blade spell.

It certainly does enable more character concepts if you can play a 10 str 10 int wizard who can hit with their magical attacks.


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Reflex Save as a replacement to TAC isn't a bad deal. Since they're all on the same scale now and reflex ignores armor it should be a pretty fair number to shoot Ray spells at even if it's a big paradigm shift from 1e.

Now big creatures should probably have some penalty to this, don't see how they dodge fireballs.

Liberty's Edge

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ChibiNyan wrote:
Now big creatures should probably have some penalty to this, don't see how they dodge fireballs.

One of the advantages of PF2 monster design is the lack of explicit things like this, or a need for such things. I do, however, suspect that Reflex will generally be the low Save for larger creatures.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
Now big creatures should probably have some penalty to this, don't see how they dodge fireballs.
One of the advantages of PF2 monster design is the lack of explicit things like this, or a need for such things. I do, however, suspect that Reflex will generally be the low Save for larger creatures.

Wouldn't say it's always an advantage. There's a lot things in the game that could benefit from finicky exception-based rules to be just right.

Things like Size Modifiers and Lance being able to be used 1h while mounted, for example. The new design philosophy is to make anything work by universal systems/rules/keywords, but as a result you do lose out on some logical interactions because of this rigidity.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
There are of course various ways they could have fixed this. Having cantrips target AC while spells target reflex or reflex DC spring to mind. I'd assume since they specifically were increasing spell chances of success that they are factoring in attack roll spells and not just monster saving throws.
There could be something here, because Chill Touch is now only a save, no more "Touch attack" roll required. As seen with the Wizard.
Which seems kinda weird from an ingame standpoint if it's still Chill Touch. No matter how good at dodging you are, a wizard can always just reach out and touch you, no prob. What if you're invisible?

By pretty much the same reasoning, why would you need an attack roll in PF1 ?

I think it is only the paradigm changing, ie the story that was created to explain in character the design choices for the game's math.


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Wild speculation:
touch spells (like Heal or Harm) no longer require an attack, but are instead uniformly save-based.
The only things to target Touch AC are rays, bombs and a few similar effects.
This way we stop having spells that switch between systems (like Harm) and just stick to one.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
I'm not sure adding casting stats makes up for not targeting TAC. An optimized caster could have 18 in their casting stat and 16 in Dex at level 1. Switching their casting stat in for accuracy only represents a 1 point bump in to hit, and potentially nothing at all from levels 5-9.
I think of more "using casting stat" as a positive since it increases the creative space for spellcasters. After all, there is no reason all evokers need to be dextrous individuals... many of them should be average and there should be some clumsy ones.

I think it makes more sense for evokers to be dexterous than almost any other caster. They need that high ref save to survive their own studies into adulthood.

Definitely agree with your point as it applies to casters in general.


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I foresee a future of Golarion where most wizards wear heavy armor, at least for lower levels.

Casters are now incredibly SAD.
There is no arcane spell failure.
boosting wisdom (with the added benefit of having a monster will save) or charisma (for more flexibility in additional spell lists) to 16 now opens up multi-classing feats that significantly increase spells per day (especially with the general decrease in spells per day).

Liberty's Edge

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Unicore wrote:

I foresee a future of Golarion where most wizards wear heavy armor, at least for lower levels.

Casters are now incredibly SAD.
There is no arcane spell failure.
boosting wisdom (with the added benefit of having a monster will save) or charisma (for more flexibility in additional spell lists) to 16 now opens up multi-classing feats that significantly increase spells per day (especially with the general decrease in spells per day).

Uh...armor verges on the utterly useless real quick without Proficiency (since, in the final version, that amounts to giving up a free +3 AC even at 1st level). Add in ACP and movement penalties and this is just not a great plan, for the most part.

A 1st level Wizard with Dex 10 has AC 13 naked. AC 14 at Dex 12. And let's face it, Dex 12 is a good idea even with armor, so let's assume it as a minimum.

Splint Mail will give a Dex 12 Wizard AC 16 instead. That's technically +2 AC, but it's also most of their starting money (125/150), and gives horrific movement penalties, as well as the ACP which will likely result in auto-failure on Athletics checks (which matter at this level).

By 3rd level, the unarmored Wizard can have Bracers of Armor and has an AC of 17. The armored one has a max AC of 17 as well (in Full Plate, which costs as much as the Bracers). The difference is that the unarmored one's AC will go up as they level, while the armored one's will only do so if they get Proficiency somehow (which is a heavy investment of one sort or another).

So this is advantageous in terms of AC at only 1st and maybe 2nd level, monetarily expensive at those levels, and comes with serious down sides. I don't see it as becoming the norm. There's certainly a viable armored Wizard build, and starting off in armor at 1st seems viable (since you can get Proficient in at least Medium Armor by 2nd or 3rd via Archetypes and General Feats)...but does not seem worth the costs for a Wizard who will be deserting armor.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
The difference is that the unarmored one's AC will go up as they level

Do we know this as an absolute fact?

Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty confident you are correct. But the wonkiness of AC if everyone is adding level but might suddenly lose that significant bonus when putting on even light armor has been noted several times.

So it seems possible they have further changed the AC system to account for the change in untrained proficiency.

It is also still very likely that I simply missed the comment somewhere.

Anyway, I'd love to know if this is truly fact, or if it is just really likely.

Thanks

Liberty's Edge

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BryonD wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
The difference is that the unarmored one's AC will go up as they level

Do we know this as an absolute fact?

Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty confident you are correct. But the wonkiness of AC if everyone is adding level but might suddenly lose that significant bonus when putting on even light armor has been noted several times.

So it seems possible they have further changed the AC system to account for the change in untrained proficiency.

It is also still very likely that I simply missed the comment somewhere.

Anyway, I'd love to know if this is truly fact, or if it is just really likely.

Thanks

We do indeed know this. They've explicitly clarified how it works (I believe it was Mark Seifter who did so, actually). AC still goes up by level as you'd expect by Proficiency.

What they did to account for Untrained is that now you can choose which you use when in non-proficient armor:

Your raw Dex Mod + Armor Bonus or the AC you'd have unarmored.

So putting a 10th level person in armor they're non-proficient in remains a straight debuff (since they get no AC bonus but suffer ACP and movement issues), but doesn't cripple them (since they also don't lose any AC).


Thanks much

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Replay starts at 3pm Pacific today and some of us are going to log in and watch! Join us!

Liberty's Edge

BryonD wrote:
Thanks much

No problem, I'm always happy to be of assistance. :)


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Just wanted to say that Jason confirmed during the rewatch of the stream that Touch AC is completely gone. (proof.)


What is this replay and can I watch it after the fact? I see nothing on the twitch site.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
What is this replay and can I watch it after the fact? I see nothing on the twitch site.

I can't say that for sure but I don't think you can. It's just an automatic replay of the stream with live comments in the chat.

Also another interesting tidbit I got from Jason. The standard rule for rolling crits is now rolling once and doubling the total result. I was wondering if this was a houserule, but it is not.


dmerceless wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
What is this replay and can I watch it after the fact? I see nothing on the twitch site.

I can't say that for sure but I don't think you can. It's just an automatic replay of the stream with live comments in the chat.

Also another interesting tidbit I got from Jason. The standard rule for rolling crits is now rolling once and doubling the total result. I was wondering if this was a houserule, but it is not.

Does it also multiply all the mods from Strength and such? I feel that without crit confirms and the +10 rule, these can be extremely swingy. I like how 5E just doubled the weapon dice to prevent the explosion.


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I think doubling is a good rule. Faster in play and more consistent with doubled or halved damage from a critical fail or success on an AoE spell.


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ChibiNyan wrote:
dmerceless wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
What is this replay and can I watch it after the fact? I see nothing on the twitch site.

I can't say that for sure but I don't think you can. It's just an automatic replay of the stream with live comments in the chat.

Also another interesting tidbit I got from Jason. The standard rule for rolling crits is now rolling once and doubling the total result. I was wondering if this was a houserule, but it is not.

Does it also multiply all the mods from Strength and such? I feel that without crit confirms and the +10 rule, these can be extremely swingy. I like how 5E just doubled the weapon dice to prevent the explosion.

Apparently yes, the thief in the stream rolled 1d6+Dex and doubled the total, then added deadly in the end. And yes, this is really swingy, but... apparently they have chosen to go with swingyness.

Silver Crusade

dmerceless wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
dmerceless wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
What is this replay and can I watch it after the fact? I see nothing on the twitch site.

I can't say that for sure but I don't think you can. It's just an automatic replay of the stream with live comments in the chat.

Also another interesting tidbit I got from Jason. The standard rule for rolling crits is now rolling once and doubling the total result. I was wondering if this was a houserule, but it is not.

Does it also multiply all the mods from Strength and such? I feel that without crit confirms and the +10 rule, these can be extremely swingy. I like how 5E just doubled the weapon dice to prevent the explosion.
Apparently yes, the thief in the stream rolled 1d6+Dex and doubled the total, then added deadly in the end. And yes, this is really swingy, but... apparently they have chosen to go with swingyness.

You can see the crit in question right about HERE (it's as dmerceless says).

Silver Crusade

dmerceless wrote:
Just wanted to say that Jason confirmed during the rewatch of the stream that Touch AC is completely gone. (proof.)

Thanks for grabbing this. I'm flipping through the stream but I'm not seeing any additional comments in the chat from the rewatch. Do you know if those are logged anywhere? Or am I just missing them? (Since your screenshots don't show timestamps I'm just browsing in the general area of where I think they're likely to be)


Joe M. wrote:
dmerceless wrote:
Just wanted to say that Jason confirmed during the rewatch of the stream that Touch AC is completely gone. (proof.)
Thanks for grabbing this. I'm flipping through the stream but I'm not seeing any additional comments in the chat from the rewatch. Do you know if those are logged anywhere? Or am I just missing them? (Since your screenshots don't show timestamps I'm just browsing in the general area of where I think they're likely to be)

I'm not sure, but apparently they are not logged anywhere. They don't appear in the chat of the normal VOD, and I don't see any way of acessing the replay itself.

Silver Crusade

dmerceless wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
dmerceless wrote:
Just wanted to say that Jason confirmed during the rewatch of the stream that Touch AC is completely gone. (proof.)
Thanks for grabbing this. I'm flipping through the stream but I'm not seeing any additional comments in the chat from the rewatch. Do you know if those are logged anywhere? Or am I just missing them? (Since your screenshots don't show timestamps I'm just browsing in the general area of where I think they're likely to be)
I'm not sure, but apparently they are not logged anywhere. They don't appear in the chat of the normal VOD, and I don't see any way of acessing the replay itself.

Great, good to know. Extra thanks for the screenshots then!

Liberty's Edge

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They said it will go up on the Paizo YouTube channel soon. That’s when I intend to check it out (I can’t stand Twitch)


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Marc Radle wrote:
They said it will go up on the Paizo YouTube channel soon. That’s when I intend to check it out (I can’t stand Twitch)

Yep, usually goes to YouTube around Mon or Tues.

I don't get the Twitch hate, it is basically just like YouTube.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber
Marc Radle wrote:
They said it will go up on the Paizo YouTube channel soon. That’s when I intend to check it out (I can’t stand Twitch)

I don't watch the youtube version, but wouldn't the twitch chat be absent from the youtube version?


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dmerceless wrote:
Just wanted to say that Jason confirmed during the rewatch of the stream that Touch AC is completely gone. (proof.)

That's interesting. Thanks for pointing that out!

Kinda makes you wonder how that influences stuff like armors. If light armor still only goes up to 2 AC, losing potential additional TAC as a potential distinguishing (and balancing) factor looks like ot will result in either redundancy or a clear "best" armor for any situation.


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Blave wrote:
dmerceless wrote:
Just wanted to say that Jason confirmed during the rewatch of the stream that Touch AC is completely gone. (proof.)

That's interesting. Thanks for pointing that out!

Kinda makes you wonder how that influences stuff like armors. If light armor still only goes up to 2 AC, losing potential additional TAC as a potential distinguishing (and balancing) factor looks like ot will result in either redundancy or a clear "best" armor for any situation.

Potentially, but a lot of people were calling for positive armor traits like weapons have, rather than only negative traits like the playtest armor had. It is possible something like that is being implemented. Honestly, while I liked Touch AC, I don't think it made for a super convincing reason to pick one armor over another. I never saw anyone pick a chain shirt over studded leather, because everyone who used light armor wanted to be sneaky.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Episode 2 starting in an hour at 12pm PST!


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Sara Marie wrote:
Episode 2 starting in an hour at 12pm PST!

Good luck Sara, and to all the party!

KILL THE GHOUL KILL THE GHOUL KILL THE DAMN GHOUL (>'-')> <('-'<) ^(' - ')^ <('-'<) (>'-')>

Scarab Sages Starfinder Design Lead

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Thomas the Gank Engine wrote:

Qundle, early on, made a perception check -- he rolled a 1 and his result was a 2.

Qundles Wisdom is 12

This suggests sorcerers are untrained in perception.

It also reveals that certain classes generally are untrained in perception.

Yeah, I caught that afterwards. It was a mistake...

Yep! Even as pros, we miss-notate sometimes.

That said, that means I would have gotten a 5... I mean maybe I would have noticed EVERYONE's feet instead of just one persons, but it wouldn't have changed gameplay. :)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Thomas the Gank Engine wrote:

Qundle, early on, made a perception check -- he rolled a 1 and his result was a 2.

Qundles Wisdom is 12

This suggests sorcerers are untrained in perception.

It also reveals that certain classes generally are untrained in perception.

Yeah, I caught that afterwards. It was a mistake...

Yep! Even as pros, we miss-notate sometimes.

That said, that means I would have gotten a 5... I mean maybe I would have noticed EVERYONE's feet instead of just one persons, but it wouldn't have changed gameplay. :)

The GM should give you a +3 bonus on your next roll ;-)

Liberty's Edge

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Ghouls appear to have a reaction they can use when they drop someone to 0 that allows them to rend the flesh (and eat it) of a nearby down creature.

Hero points have changed: 1 point allows a reroll of a d20, while all your hero points (minimum 1) allows you to recover from dying - putting you at zero and unconscious - without gaining the wounded condition.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Other than the hero point change (above), dying rules appear to be the same as from the playtest updates.


Shisumo wrote:
Other than the hero point change (above), dying rules appear to be the same as from the playtest updates.

Couldn't catch the live show, but do you know if they went Recovery Roll or Fortitude Save?


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Flat check DC10 + 1 per dying condition level. And you don't want to get a 1.

Silver Crusade

Shisumo wrote:
Hero points have changed: 1 point allows a reroll of a d20, while all your hero points (minimum 1) allows you to recover from dying - putting you at zero and unconscious - without gaining the wounded condition.

While that was what I thought Jason said at first, when it actually happened didn't the character remain unconscious?

So, burn all your hero points for: stable @ 0hp, unconscious, no wounded condition.

I may not have tracked the stream correctly there.


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I think this thread will need renaming...

Also, we've seen how Glimpse of Redemption (the special Redeemer's interrupt) works: the attacker has the choice of either failing their attack or being enfeebled and granting damage reduction (3 in Carina's case, probably depends on Cha) to their target (do say if I got it wrong).

"Life choices" XD

Another one - Diplomacy apparently doesn't affect a single person anymore (this is great news for me). Unless Qundle has a related skill feat, but I doubt that.


Joe M. wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Hero points have changed: 1 point allows a reroll of a d20, while all your hero points (minimum 1) allows you to recover from dying - putting you at zero and unconscious - without gaining the wounded condition.

While that was what I thought Jason said at first, when it actually happened didn't the character remain unconscious?

So, burn all your hero points for: stable @ 0hp, unconscious, no wounded condition.

I may not have tracked the stream correctly there.

Yes, you remain unconscious, as Shisumo said. I think it was Carina who healed up Zel and brought him back to consciousness?


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Roswynn wrote:

I think this thread will need renaming...

Also, we've seen how Glimpse of Redemption (the special Redeemer's interrupt) works: the attacker has the choice of either failing their attack or being enfeebled and granting damage reduction (3 in Carina's case, probably depends on Cha) to their target (do say if I got it wrong).

"Life choices" XD

Another one - Diplomacy apparently doesn't affect a single person anymore (this is great news for me). Unless Qundle has a related skill feat, but I doubt that.

Playtest update version scaled as something like 2+level for the damage reduction of paladin actions and Qundle absolutely does not have a skill feat for it, since his background being being a field medic grants him the ability to treat wounds in combat.


MusicAddict wrote:
Playtest update version scaled as something like 2+level for the damage reduction of paladin actions and Qundle absolutely does not have a skill feat for it, since his background being being a field medic grants him the ability to treat wounds in combat.

Thanks for the clarification!

Silver Crusade

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Roswynn wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Hero points have changed: 1 point allows a reroll of a d20, while all your hero points (minimum 1) allows you to recover from dying - putting you at zero and unconscious - without gaining the wounded condition.

While that was what I thought Jason said at first, when it actually happened didn't the character remain unconscious?

So, burn all your hero points for: stable @ 0hp, unconscious, no wounded condition.

I may not have tracked the stream correctly there.

Yes, you remain unconscious, as Shisumo said. I think it was Carina who healed up Zel and brought him back to consciousness?

I swear that post was edited between when I read it and when I clicked "reply", lol

Anyway, glad we're getting a picture of how these rules work

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