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Hi.
I like to min max.
I’m going to post this build as a google document and explain a bit about it here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R_RG5-aA_w9Hyc8xWnSPOVRCYma4YJXWxKYfJ1X 81ZM
Disclaimer(s)
We are using all rule books, as in any material on D20PFSRD.
My DM argued with me about the ring of acceleration in this build, but I think it’s totally allowed within the crafting rules of the game and we ended up settling on a house rule of crafted item per character.
It’s possible I did something wrong. I’ve only played with one DM and I’m not perfect.
Race: human: favored class bonus for rogue is nuts and a so is a bonus feat. Humans are also just sweet. The human spirit come on guys!!!
Classes: surprisingly, there is a huge selection of classes that give grapple bonuses, but most of them become redundant over time.
Cavalier and rogue are not the most obvious examples of a grabber, but with archetypes and a quick dip of multi-classing the character has some traits that frankly should not be able to be combined. In the end, the speed of the grappler is what truly makes the difference, so seeing that the cavalier and rogue end up being the best has at least a little thematic resonance.
The constable cavalier class sacrifices the near useless mount gives a subtle yet massive boost to the speed of the grappler. We will address later why speed is so important for grappling in a moment, but the ability to chain a charge to a grapple is only offered in this singular avenue, and eventually in this build move actions and attack actions blend together to form a swift grapple and tie. The constable also gains an untyped (stacks with anything) bonus to grapple.
The penitent order gives another level of ungodly speed that should never have been allowed. Expert captor allows one to tie an opponent up without pinning them first. This removes the need to succeed at a second grapple check to completely subdue an enemy. You also get +0 to tie up an opponent where normally you receive -10 to combat maneuver check. The icing on the cake is a +1 bonus to your escape bonds check after the opponent is tied. The only exchange is that you won’t be able to kill humans, and will have to try to encourage party members to do the same. It’s really not bad, especially when fighting demons, and eventually someone in the party should get phase locking, but it’s hard if not impossible to cast when completely tied anyway.
Wow... Let’s just get this straight. That’s all from a two level dip into cavalier. Now we renounce our ways. What a terrible person we’ve been locking all these poor innocents away in jails. From now on we will use our tie ups for good! We will kidnap demons and bind them with spider silk! We will grapple dragons and tie their mouths to their tails! We’ll carey them back home on our backs! Er...
Yes... okay.
So next we reform and go kidnapper.
A bonus within the kidnapper archetype gives a stacking reduction to the tie up penalty. Depending on if you house rule this, this may not stack with the similar thing in expert captor and net you a bonus. Can you reduce a penalty below 0? What does it mean to “not take the usual -10 penalty”? Who knows.
With abductor We get a stacking bonus to grapple combat maneuver checks as well.
Rogue also has amazingly weird combinations of bonuses. We end up taking a familiar from speccing into minor/major magic for a +2 grapple bonus. Then we make that crab a figment of our imagination. Then we make that crab sticky! Then we make that crab make US sticky!!! LMFAOWTF?
Short and sweet baby.
Actions:
Pathfinder has a general rule that you can trade a standard action for a move action.
The developers have stated they envision grapple as a one hand free kind of deal, more akin to having a guy by the collar of his shirt than full on high school wrestling grapple.
Technically you still have one hand free
You can grapple an opponent and use the other hand to block arrows with deflect arrows or grapple another opponent who misses in melee with snapping turtle clutch as an immediate action.
Grapple is very complicated and not well explained. I spent a long time researching how grapple works, piecing together various critiques of players explanations of the mechanic.
Let’s start simple.
From what I understand, if you grapple successfully, the person grappling and the person grappled both enter the “grappled state” (gs).
In the gs you receive a huge penalty to basically anything that isn’t grapple or resist grapple for the duration
You cannot grapple after a move action.
1You must grapple the opponent, which takes a full round ( we reduce this with feats and such)
2 the opponent gets a turn to break the grapple and the whole enemy team gets their turn while grappler and grappled suffer grappled state.
3You must pin the opponent with a successful grapple check.
4 another enemy turn but no reduction to your guard and a severely reduced chance to break grapple since he’s pinned.
5tie yo enemy.
Grapple sucks.
We end up reducing this to.
Charge+grapple-bonus move action from ring of acceleration, (which can be used as a grapple thanks to greater grapple feat) tie up from gs without needing to pin because of expert captor.
WHAT ?
Min. Max.
Grapple checks are simple. They take your Combat maneuver bonus for grapple and general CMB and match it against that of your opponent.
A pinned opponent is technically the same as a tied opponent, except one an opponent is tied you no longer need to maintain the grapple.
Escaping a pin is the same as escaping a grapple, differentiated by any bonuses you have to pinning.
Escaping a tie is the same as escaping a grapple, plus tie bonuses, plus 20.
If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target’s CMB, the Target can’t try to escape at all.
I interpret this to mean they cannot even try to break the ropes. If I tied a dragon like this, he would be bound by his head to his foot and his wings to his tail so his muscles wouldn’t even allow him to try to burst his bonds. Especially when we get to spider silk ropes.
Stats:
We started with a stat array and I pumped strength to increase grapple bonus since grapple is a combat maneuver.
Dex an obvious second and con for survivability. (My dm likes to throw big challenges where I end up needing to tie up a single creature 4-6 times to deal with its size or something.)
Items:
The ring was controversial only to my DM, and I didn’t understand why. I just followed the item creation rules for enchanting an item with a spell. It is the key to this build in a way. The most important thing is to be able to tie an opponent in one turn, and you can only do this if you grapple, then grapple two more times in a turn. We skip one with expert captor, tying without needing to pin and end up turning the move action we get from this ring into a grapple with rapid grappler.
The formula for the cost of purchasing an item enchanted with a spell permanently is available below. (acceleration is a word of power, which we have played with before, and are typically thought to be weaker than spells, since they are simply components or weaker versions of other spells that exist, such as haste)
4 x multiplier for making a spell with a duration in rounds permanent,
Acceleration must be cast by a level 3 caster level 2 word of power Multiply 2*3*2000*4 per level * 2 for purchase price rather than craft= 96000 gp.
I really don’t see the issue. The ring is not op, it just makes this build viable.
Dan bong is the only interesting item besides the ring. It gives a +2 to grapple bonus, but you can’t grapple with a weapon. So do you need exotic weapon proficiency to get the bonus? Who knows. My dm says yes so I go with it. My gut says no since the only thing proficiency does is negate the-4 penalty to attack rolls with weapons but multiple sources confirm you don’t make attack rolls with weapons when you grapple. If you did then you would just get a +5 weapon and get +5 to CMB with grapple and this wouldn’t be an issue.
A mithril breast plate makes us the most maneuverable with the most armor class. We also make it adhesive and for a few rounds a day we can make our palms gluey for an extra grapple bonus.
Traits: bred for war. I’m a six for tall girl IRL, so I don’t see a problem with the amazing rope girl being an Amazon. Gets you a +1 to CMB which is also for grapple!
Exhange the other traits for feat
Feats:
The feats are explained pretty well in the build. They basically work to change a move action into a grapple action (but only if you are already in grappled state), generally increase grapple power through CMB or grapple CMB an otherwise hit some interesting survivability feats since we have one hand completely free.
You can grapple with your swift action or move action in different scenarios. Grapple actions can be used to tie whenever you have someone e grappled.
Rapid grappler shouldn’t exist either.
Weapon focus can be taken with grapple.
My dm also said I need exotic weapon mastery to get the +2 bonus so I’ll take it.
Snapping turtle style is fun, can sometimes net you a free grapple but almost never in a useful way since you will still only be able to tie up one person. I love the flavor of this and it can stop a chain of attacks if you dodge the first one, and this build ends with a pretty decent AC.
General:
This build doesn’t aim to do damage. It just ties a guy up guaranteed every turn from across the map if it needs to. In the end I either walk away and let my team do the dirty work while I repent in the woods for not being able to help, or load the fellas up in a cart and take their bodies back home. I also have a pretty big carry capacity with mule back cords and massive strength so I can haul a big one.
Let me know anything I got wrong, if you hate me or my build, or if you just wanna use it :)
the link you provided isn't working, but from what I gather the jist of the build is
Race: human
Traits: Bred for War
Classes: Cavalier(2), Rogue(x)
Archetypes: Constable(cavalier), kidnapper(rogue)
Order: Penitent Order
Item: A Ring that gives you a free move action at will for only 96k
The rest of your build I'm a bit fuzzy on. Not sure how minor magic is giving you a familiar for example. Not sure what you mean by having a sticky crab.
Using a dan bong results in a net -2 to your grapple checks since you're only using one hand. The penalty for using one hand is -4 and the dan bong gives you a +2. There are feats that remove the penalty for only using one hand and I have no idea if you've taken them or not. Also, if you're using a weapon to grapple your options are limited to moving and doing damage. You wouldn't be able to pin or tie up an opponent without dropping said weapon.
The ring seems OP to me, just because its the sort of thing that every single class/build in the game would benefit from. The magic item creation rules are written in a way that they are easy to abuse even if you're not trying to abuse them. This is why DMs generally need to be very careful introducing custom items. It may not be OP the way you're planning on it using it, but your character isn't the only one to consider. If you have to use such a powerful item to make your build viable it suggests that the build as is needs improvement.
I would love to help you further, but I don't want to rehash a bunch of stuff you're already aware of and suggest feats, items, etc that either you've already taken or would be redundant.
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Yes but.... what happens when she grapples a Succubus?
Jurassicka wrote: ...details about the amazing rope girl... I listed links and comments. There are some issues,
The Amazing Rope Girl
Accelerate (time)
Words of Power Magic Item Creation
Magic Item Creation wrote: A wordcaster can create potions, scrolls, and wands using wordspells. Your ring cannot be made in this manner, as it is not mentioned as craftable.
There is a Quick Runner’s Shirt that gives a 1/day move action for a swift. I don't know of anything else that does this kind of thing as a magic item.
Human
Favored Class Options wrote: Rogue: The rogue gains +1/6 of a new rogue talent. Constable's Apprehend
Order
Something to watch out for:
Quote: If he violates any of these edicts, he loses the benefits from his order’s challenge ability for 24 hours. The violation of an edict is subject to GM interpretation. Penitent's Expert Captor
Kidnapper
Minor Magic
Major Magic
Familiar
List of creatures
Crab, king wrote: Master gains a +2 bonus on CMB checks to start and maintain a grapple King Crab
Quote: Aquatic scavengers, crabs can also survive on land for some time, but must return to the water or suffocate. Be sure to carry a bucket of water for your crab.
Figment Familiar
Manifest Dreams (Su) wrote: At 3rd level, a figment is shaped by its master’s dreams. Each time the master awakens from a full night’s rest, he can apply to the figment 1 evolution point’s worth of eidolon evolutions that don’t have a base form requirement. At 7th level, he can apply 2 points’ worth of eidolon evolutions; at 13th level, he can apply 3 points’ worth of eidolon evolutions. Sticky
Not sure how to get the character sticky
Dan Bong
Quote: They provide the wielder with the ability to lock an opponent and target pressure points that grant her a +2 bonus on her combat maneuver to grapple. You must be using the weapon to get the bonus.
Jurassicka wrote: My gut says no since the only thing proficiency does is negate the-4 penalty to attack rolls with weapons but multiple sources confirm you don’t make attack rolls with weapons when you grapple. Grasshopper, that is the way of the munchkin.
Performing a Combat Maneuver
Quote: When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target’s Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll. Grapple
If you want the weapons bonus for the grapple, you must use it in the grapple, and therefore apply non-proficiency penalties as appropriate.
Breastplate
Weight 30 lbs.; Armor Bonus +6; Max Dex Bonus +3; Armor Check Penalty -4; Arcane Spell Failure Chance 25%; Speed 20 ft./15 ft.
Mithral
Weight 15 lbs.; Armor Bonus +6; Max Dex Bonus +5; Armor Check Penalty -1; Arcane Spell Failure Chance 15%; Speed 20 ft./15 ft.
Celestial Armor might be better as it allows for a higher Dex bonus. And it has Fly!
Weight 20 lbs.; Armor Bonus +9*; Max Dex Bonus +8; Armor Check Penalty -2; Arcane Spell Failure Chance 15%; Speed 30 ft./20 ft.
*This is the base +6 with the +3 enhancement. It matches the base for Breastplate.
Bred for War
Jurassicka wrote: +1 feat for trading traits There is no such thing as far as I am aware. This must be a houserule, since traits are usually considered half a feat.
Alternate-Racial-Traits
Military Tradition: wrote: Several human cultures raise all children (or all children of a certain social class) to serve in the military or defend themselves with force of arms. They gain proficiency with up to two martial or exotic weapons appropriate to their culture. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait. Be sure to note your culture, as the weapon choices are specific to the culture. You cannot make up your own.
Improved Unarmed Strike
Prerequisite(s): none
Rapid Grappler
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 9th.
Improved Grapple
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Dodge
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13.
Greater Grapple
Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6, Dex 13.
Deflect Arrows
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Snapping Turtle Style
Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +1 or monk level 1st.
Snapping Turtle Clutch
Prerequisite(s): Snapping Turtle Style, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +3 or monk level 3rd.
Weapon Focus(grapple)
Prerequisite(s): Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Dan Bong)
Prerequisite(s): Base attack bonus +1.
Solo Maneuvers
Prerequisite(s): none
Rubble Skirmisher
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Nimble Moves, base attack bonus +2.
Nimble Moves This is required for Rubble Skirmisher
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13.
Mobility
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Dodge.
Anticipate Dodge This requires brawler level 4th, or monk level 4th, so you can't get it.
Prerequisite(s): Dodge, Mobility; base attack bonus +7, brawler level 4th, or monk level 4th.
/cevah
The Penitent Constable's charge certainly works, but the Kidnapper's bonus would not. The language used for Clean Capture means that you reduce the same penalty that Expert Captor lets you ignore; Clean Capture in particular adds nothing to the build.
Moreover, while the Rogue's slower BAB progression is off-set by Abductor's scaling bonuses, I consider this is shoring up a weakness rather than scaling a strength. A full BAB class with bonuses to grapple would carry more weight, at least without clever use of Rogue Talents.
I would recommend looking into feats and effects that modify charges, such as Dragon Style that makes charging easier or Vigilant Charger that makes charging more flexible.
The ring is, to put it bluntly, nonsense. Have an 11th-level Pathfinder Chronicler give you a move action instead, whether through party synergy or Leadership.
EDIT: Links and new information.
I didn't read through everything, just wanted to point out where I got to a point where you we're factually wrong.
Quote: Prerequisite(s): Improved Grapple; base attack bonus +6, brawler’s flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.
Benefit: When you use this style, you do not take a –4 penalty on combat maneuver checks to grapple a foe with only one hand. Additionally, you do not lose your Dexterity bonus to AC while pinning an opponent.
Normal: Without two hands free, you take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll to grapple a foe. While pinning a foe, you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Grappling requires both hands, or else you get a penalty.
Also, the ring is complete nonsense.
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Jurassicka wrote: My DM argued with me about the ring of acceleration in this build, but I think it’s totally allowed within the crafting rules of the game The first, and last, rule of item creation is that custom items are completely under the purview of the GM on both pricing and whether they are appropriate and available at all.
thank you Cevah
The corrected link helps answer some questions I had about the build.
If you want to use a dan bong then you'll need to take the feat grabbing style. It will allow you to grapple one handed without penalty. I'm not sure that the penitent order really gives you anything since you're already getting a similar ability via kidnapper. This means you'll be able to pick an order that won't conflict with your playstyle.
the only way I know of to charge and grapple and pin an enemy in a single round is using the feat bushwhack. The challenging bit with this feat is that you can only use it against enemies who are flat footed and unaware of you. So, you would need some way of doing this something like vanish + Order of the Land(Cavalier). In order to pull it off after the surprise round.
Quick recap of the notes from my post:
According to the Words of Power Magic Item Creation, your ring is not mentioned as craftable.
There is a Quick Runner’s Shirt that gives a 1/day move action for a swift. I don't know of anything else that does this kind of thing as a magic item.
A Cavalier must maintain the Order's edict or they loose access to its benefits.
The King Crab Familiar must return to the water or suffocate. So keep a bucket of water around.
The figment familiar can get Sticky, but I am not sure how to get the character sticky
You must use the Dan Bong to get its benefit.
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls.
If you want the weapons bonus for the grapple, you must use it in the grapple, and therefore apply non-proficiency penalties as appropriate.
Celestial Armor is better than Mithral Breastplate
There is no such thing as trading a trait for a feat as far as I am aware.
Military Tradition: requires a specific culture; you cannot make up your own.
Rubble Skirmisher requires Nimble Moves, which you don't have listed.
Anticipate Dodge This requires brawler level 4th, or monk level 4th, so you can't get it.
/cevah
Cevah wrote: Anticipate Dodge This requires brawler level 4th, or monk level 4th, so you can't get it.
/cevah
Anticipate Dodge has its prerequisites listed in a particular way:
Dodge, Mobility; base attack bonus +7, brawler level 4th, or monk level 4th.
Notably, there is a semicolon dividing Dodge and Mobility from the rest of the prerequisites. Due to the semicolon, the prerequisites can be interpreted as:
(Dodge), (Mobility), (BAB +7, Brawler 4, or Monk 4)
I believe the intent is that a character needs to satisfy one of the last three conditions, but that is hard to portray with only commas.
You can fix a lot of problems with this build by using Brawler and Barbarian dips instead of Rogue.
But as always, no matter what you do, a Druid wild shaped into a Giant Octopus is always better than every other grappler, without even trying.
And here's what happens when you do try
Cevah wrote: The figment familiar can get Sticky, but I am not sure how to get the character sticky Two levels of Mutated Defender Vigilante would give you that, but I'm pretty sure OP has like many others (me included) been tricked by SRD.
The idea is for the Figment familiar to take both the Sticky and Shared Evolution... Evolutions, then give Sticky to the master. Now, if you read the description of Shared Evolution in the source book or on Archives you can see that the evolution requires having the Twinned Summoner archetype.
SRD lacks this vital piece of information, which means many people get the wrong idea and think they can get Pounce/Flight/Skilled this way.
I can't load Google docs from here, but all I can say is that if your character doesn't wear a robe of infinite twine then I'll be very, very sad.
Covert Operator wrote: You can fix a lot of problems with this build by using Brawler and Barbarian dips instead of Rogue.
But as always, no matter what you do, a Druid wild shaped into a Giant Octopus is always better than every other grappler, without even trying.
And here's what happens when you do try
Snakebite Striker is incompatible with both Strangler (Class Skills) and Verdant Grappler (Maneuver Mastery). While Snakebite Striker replaces only Maneuver Trainings after the first, Verdant Grappler alters the Maneuver Training class feature as a whole.
The broad strokes are sound enough, but there seems to be a lot of prep time involved between Wild Shape and whatnot. I would need more time to look into the mechanics, but the conflicting archetypes would need to be addressed first anyway.
Brawler (Constructed Pugilist / Strangler) 4 / Monk (Tetori) X is one of the ultimate grapplers IMHO.
The Constructed Pugilist says it modifies class skills, but the modification is null since it is trying to add something that is a part of the core class skills for brawler anyways...Craft(Weapons), brawlers already have all craft skills as class skills. Pretty much every GM I have spoken to says the 2 archetypes can stack (even PFS GMs).
Constructed Pugilist gives you a constructed limb, choose the Grapnel Arm modification to allow you to fire a grappling hook 40 feet for a ranged grapple. If you go 6 levels you could also take the Tight Grip modification for an additional +1 CMB on grapple...but I feel the 2 extra levels of Tetori are a better option.
Strangler gets you sneak attack dice to your grapple damage, you don't lose your dex while grappling, and you can knockout anyone you have pinned.
Tetori monk gets you most of the grappling feats as bonus feats, gives you automatic Grab on unarmed strikes, lets you reverse it if someone tries to grapple you, bonus to break grapples, lets you apply dimension lock to those you grapple so they can't teleport out of your grip, ghost touch grapples so you can wrestle ghosts, form lock shapeshifters so they can't wriggle out of your grip.
Slyme wrote: Brawler (Constructed Pugilist / Strangler) 4 / Monk (Tetori) X is one of the ultimate grapplers IMHO.
...lets you apply dimension lock to those you grapple so they can't teleport out of your grip, ghost touch grapples so you can wrestle ghosts, form lock shapeshifters so they can't wriggle out of your grip.
I do like the swift action Dimensional Anchor, but it turns on a bit late at 17th-level (if going Brawler 4) for my tastes. Then again, a Phase Locking weapon can reproduce this effect earlier and be sold later.
Constructed Strangler feels like a two-level dip to me. Negating grappled penalties and grappling at 40 feet are hard-to-replicate abilities, but the 1/day Knockout and grapple bonuses are lower priority. Knockout also scales poorly without Brawler levels, stalling at DC (12 + Str or Dex modifier). Optimistically around DC 20 at 13th-level or so, and has to deal with a fair list of immune enemies.
EyePatchNotes wrote: Optimistically around DC 20 at 13th-level or so, and has to deal with a fair list of immune enemies. You do realize that the same can be said for Grapple? Any creature 2 size categories larger than you, any insubstantial creature, swarms, oozes, most plants, and any enemy that can gain the benefit of Freedom of Movement. Then there are the flying creatures. They aren't immune, but it could be very difficult to grab them if you don't fly. Also some creatures just have an insane CMD for no good reason.
But if you are entering a campaign where you mostly fast humanoids, it should be a good tactic, most of the time.
Meirril wrote: You do realize that the same can be said for Grapple? Any creature 2 size categories larger than you Check again!
Meirril wrote: You do realize that the same can be said for Grapple? Any creature 2 size categories larger than you, any insubstantial creature, swarms, oozes, most plants, and any enemy that can gain the benefit of Freedom of Movement. Then there are the flying creatures. They aren't immune, but it could be very difficult to grab them if you don't fly. Also some creatures just have an insane CMD for no good reason. Grapple characters are already building themselves into a pit, by my count. Having a list of enemies immune to grapple is one more reason not to put two more class levels into an ability that has a lower applicability and success rate.
And apparently grapple lacks the size stipulation of other combat maneuvers. I was surprised to find that out recently, but no complaints here.
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I was able to get a grapple focused Brawler/Monk up to consistently hitting ~+30 CMB at level 10, with their CMD for resisting or maintaining a grapple ~+50. Tetori also allows you to grapple things that are normally immune, or super difficult to grapple (incorporeal and shapeshifters).
One other bonus of the Constructed Pugilist archetype is you can enchant your limb like a weapon, and make it out of special materials, which frees up your neck slot from the typical AoMF.
The Construced Pugilist/Strangler Brawler would be at least a 2 level dip to get you +2d6 sneak damage on your grapples, penalty reductions, and that sweet grappling arm, 4 would get you knockout, and 6 would get you a 2nd modification to your limb.
There are no size limits on grappling in PF...larger creatures just get CMD bonuses. A diminutive creature could theoretically grapple a gargantuan one if you can make the roll -vs- it's CMD.
Slyme wrote: The Construced Pugilist/Strangler Brawler would be at least a 2 level dip to get you +2d6 sneak damage on your grapples, penalty reductions, and that sweet grappling arm, These are the Brawler's spicy contributions,
Slyme wrote: 4 would get you knockout, and 6 would get you a 2nd modification to your limb. and these are my points of contention. Constructed Strangler 4 gets, what was it, +2 grapple CMB/CMD beyond the norm? I find these bonuses fairly dismissable as the Tetori has a similar progression track. As stated above, I do not find that Knockout is a compelling ability, especially when it delays Monk progression by two levels. A lot can happen in two levels, and anti-magic techniques are always welcome sooner.
Knockout is certainly a good ability, or at least I appreciate it, but not in this particular concept. I was trying to find an angle for Constructed Pugilist for a while, so this helps me a lot actually. Cheers for that.
I just wish there was a feat you could take to get extra modifications for the Constructed Pugilist without having to take more levels in it. Being able to grab the Shielding Limb and Tight Grip mods would be handy, but definitely not worth going 10 levels into it.
Slyme wrote: I just wish there was a feat you could take to get extra modifications for the Constructed Pugilist without having to take more levels in it. Being able to grab the Shielding Limb and Tight Grip mods would be handy, but definitely not worth going 10 levels into it. Shield bonuses are relatively easy to come by, though usually with action investment. A permanent, two-feat drop would be Shield Focus into Unhindering Shield, which has the side benefit of putting shield-only enhancements on the table. A Horacalcum constructed limb grants a +1 bonus to attack rolls, handy when a Monk's progression allows you to eventually sidestep having adamantine. More gold sinks for a build that can afford them never hurt.
Regarding Knockout, a Constructed Strangler 2, Tetori 15 gets Quivering Palm, a similar enemy-ending effect with properly scaled DC. I forgot about that part. Silver lining?
Tetori also gets Stunning Pin, which lets you use your Stunning Fist against foes you have grappled.
Just did a quick mock up in HeroLab of a dex based Brawler 2 / Monk 10, with reasonable gear. 112 HP, 29 AC, +28 CMB/44 CMD for grapples (with some situational bonuses against larger foes not factored in)
With greater grapple and rapid grappler, you can grapple and pin someone in 1 round, stunning fist them, do 3d6 damage + 2d6 sneak damage...your grapples are magic, cold iron, silver, lawful, plus any special materials or enchants on your constructed limb.
Not too bad overall
I'm still not sure how folks are using Greater Grapple for a second attack on the first round.
Greater grapple reduced the cost of maintaining a grapple to a move action... not making a grapple check in general.
You are not maintaining in the same round you grapple the guy.
That doesn't happen until the next (and following) round(s).
Only on the 2nd+ rounds can you maintain as a move, then use your standard to make another grapple check to do whatever.
On the first round, not so much.
EvilMinion wrote: I'm still not sure how folks are using Greater Grapple for a second attack on the first round.
Greater grapple reduced the cost of maintaining a grapple to a move action... not making a grapple check in general.
You are not maintaining in the same round you grapple the guy.
That doesn't happen until the next (and following) round(s).
Only on the 2nd+ rounds can you maintain as a move, then use your standard to make another grapple check to do whatever.
On the first round, not so much.
My turn starts.. Standard action attempt to grapple target, success. Move action Maintain grapple with greater grapple feat. The feat description even states you can make two attempts in a single round.
If Crafting is allowed, look into crafting Iron Ropes, if you want to tie up enemies in a pinch.
I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Kraken style- you deal your wisdom bonus to grapple damage.
Grapple
Quote: If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. Greater Grapple
Quote: Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This indicates that maintaining is done each succeeding round after the grapple is made in order to maintain the grapple. It does not give you the option of making an additional check in the first round.
/cevah
You grapple with your standard action, you then maintain with your move via greater grapple, you then maintain again as a swift via rapid grappler.
The first round the 'maintain' actions are not needed to prevent your target from escaping, but they do allow you to move, damage, pin, etc. At least that is how it was always explained to me.
Grapple states you check on the NEXT round for maintaining.
I don't see how you get that as the SAME round.
/cevah
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Cevah wrote: Grapple states you check on the NEXT round for maintaining.
I don't see how you get that as the SAME round.
/cevah
Greater Grapple wrote: Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. Cevah wrote: This indicates that maintaining is done each succeeding round after the grapple is made in order to maintain the grapple. It does not give you the option of making an additional check in the first round. Taking Greater Grapple does not make it so you can't take Move Actions anymore! You still get to make 1 Standard Action and 1 Move Action in a Round. Greater Grapple even says you get to make 2 checks/round to harm your Opponent: the regular one you take as a Standard Action, and Greater Grapple lets you make another as a Move Action. Further
Greater Grapple NEVER wrote: the round after you have Grappled a creature, maintaining the Grapple is a Move Action. No, it says, "Once you have grappled a creature". If you haven't taken your Move Action yet, there is no rule that says you can't still.
Greater Grapple wrote: This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent) Rapid Grappler lets you make a Grapple Check as a Swift Action, allowing for 3 checks/round.
The Grapple rules specifically state that once the Grapple is established (with you the one in control of the Grapple) subsequent checks allow you to apply those other effects: Move, Damage, Pin, Tie Up.
Grappling wrote: Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions... Move... Damage... Pin... Tie Up The general Grapple Rules do not really speak to a character that has Greater Grapple or Rapid Grappler: why would they? That's what Feat descriptions are for: to describe the special things Feats let you do!
Grapple wrote: (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple). The general rules treat each Grapple Check as if it were a Standard Action, and every round, you only get 1 Standard Action. The General Rules do not speak to characters who can make Grapple Checks as Move, Swift, and Free actions, but it does say that subsequent successful rolls let you do that other Grapple-Bad Stuff.
The rules really do say that Greater and Rapid grapple let you make extra checks every round as Move and Swift actions respectively, and the general Grapple Rules really do say that subsequent successful checks after establishing the Grapple let you do those other things to harm your opponent.
Jurassicka wrote: Escaping a tie is the same as escaping a grapple, plus tie bonuses, plus 20.
If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target’s CMB, the Target can’t try to escape at all.
I interpret this to mean they cannot even try to break the ropes. If I tied a dragon like this, he would be bound by his head to his foot and his wings to his tail so his muscles wouldn’t even allow him to try to burst his bonds. Especially when we get to spider silk ropes.
I don't think that is fair to say at all! Just because the rules here do not talk about Burst DCs does not mean that your captive can't attempt to burst the bindings. That is, in fact a severe limitation of Grappling.
I like the Robe of Infinite Twine, which lets you produce 10' of Rope/round as a Swift Action, but Hemp Rope has a Burst DC of 23. Silk Rope, 24, Spider Silk Rope 25, Chain 26, and Mithril Chain 27, iirc.
Selvaxri wrote: If Crafting is allowed, look into crafting Iron Ropes, if you want to tie up enemies in a pinch. I like Iron Ropes. My favorite--more expensive than Iron Ropes--is chain made from Adamantine. The problem is that no rules exist for describing Adamantine Chain. There is the Dwarven Dorn Dergar, an Exotic Weapon that consists mostly of a 10' long chain. So, pay 3000gp extra, and you buy an Adamantine Dwarven Dorn Dergar. There is no Burst DC given for either the iron bars made from Iron Rope or an Adamantine chain weapon used as a chain to bind someone. The GM would have to extrapolate or rule that such things are unburstable and have to be broken some other way.
Another thing to consider is the Enlarge Person Spell, which doubles the size of everything you are carrying, so your bike chain turns into anchor chain, which should definitely be more difficult to burst, but no rules exist to describe it. Also, your Enlarged possessions shrink when they leave your possession, so you would have to maintain the Grapple after you Tie Up your opponent, or the restraints would shrink and burst, presumably damaging the opponent as they do.
Slyme wrote: Tetori also gets Stunning Pin, which lets you use your Stunning Fist against foes you have grappled. My favorite thing about Tetori is Inescapable Grasp, which negates Freedom of Movement. The problem is that that Ability doesn't come until level 9, and that means you are very committed as a Grappler, and there are times when you can't solve your problems by Grappling them, even when you can negate FoM. Most of the time, for instance, you can't Grapple multiple opponents. If a committed Grappler is fighting multiple opponents, she is screwed. That's happened to a character of mine.
I like to use Grappling as one feature of a build. I like to be able play at least 1 other trick.
I have a build that uses Greater Grapple + Expert Captor, but she is also built to be a good archer. If she runs into something she can't grapple, she shoots it.
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My Construced Strangler Tetori can always still just punch people with his enchanted bionic arm, and I could always take the Body Shield feat to block incoming attacks with whoever I have grappled.
Definitely not as versatile as some builds, but that is also why you adventure as part of a team :)
Slyme wrote: Brawler (Constructed Pugilist / Strangler) 4 / Monk (Tetori) X is one of the ultimate grapplers IMHO. I like Alchemist for a Grappler.
Cevah wrote: King Crab Aquatic wrote: can also survive on land for some time, but must return to the water or suffocate. Cevah wrote: Be sure to carry a bucket of water for your crab. If your Crab Familiar is a Tumor Familiar, you don't have that problem. Even if your GM imposes suffocation rules on your Tumor Familiar, this Familiar can just merge back into your body and rejuvenate there.
In addition, the Alchemist Discovery Tentacle has the Grab Ability, which gives you a +4 on all your Grapple Checks. With 4 levels in Alchemist, your permanent GMB goes up by +7 in 4 levels, counting only your BAB and those 2 things. That's about as good as it gets.
As for self-buffing, the Strength Mutagen gives you a +2. Enlarge Person gives you a +2, and as an Extract, you can use it as a Standard Action instead of the Full Round Action that Wizards need. Alchemists get Bull Strength. All those stack: one is an Alchemal Bonus; one is a Size Bonus; the other is an Enhancement Bonus.
There's also True Strike. Grapple Checks are Attack Rolls, so they do get a +20 from True Strike. But you need 2 checks to Tie Up your opponent, and TS only blesses the first check. My solution is to equip your Crab Familiar with an Infusion of True Strike and use Share Spells to enchant it with Touch Injection. So, you begin your round adjacent to the Balor Demon having cast True Strike on yourself the previous round. You Grapple as a Standard Action with an extra +20. Your Familiar hits you with Touch Injection, buffing you with True Strike as a Readied Action, then you Tie Up the Balor Demon as a Move Action.
Slyme wrote: I was able to get a grapple focused Brawler/Monk up to consistently hitting ~+30 CMB at level 10 I have a level 9 grappler with a full-time +30. If I'd known that trick when I was playing with her, I could have buffed it to +50. A Balor Demon's CMD is 54.
I wrote: I like to use Grappling as one feature of a build. I like to be able play at least 1 other trick.
I have a build that uses Greater Grapple + Expert Captor, but she is also built to be a good archer. If she runs into something she can't grapple, she shoots it.
Make her a Grenadier Alchemist. In addition to Infusion, Tentacle, and King Crab Tumor Familiar, she takes Explosive Missile and can attach Alchemist Fire or Acid or something to her arrows. Now she shoots Exploding Arrows. Exploding Arrows are cool.
Not a fan of the alchemist and tentacle thing for the flavor I am going for...but if I ever want to just super min-max a grappler, a couple levels might just be on the menu.
I can just picture a Cthulhu themed crazy mutated alchemist hug monster of doom...could be fun.
4 levels of Hangman Vigilante let's you use a masterwork whip/net as a noose. At lv 4, the break DC is minimum 23+1/2 vigilante lv (aka min DC25); the noose also gains: temp hp equal vigilante lv and hardness equal 1/2 vigilante lv + 2* enhancement bonus.
Ex: A lv 6 Hangman Vigilante (for the talent and Chokehold) with a +2 whip (noose) has Hardness 7, temp HP 7, break DC 26.
* for 200 gp, you can buy Bloodvine rope which has a massive break DC of 30.
********************
I'm kind of surprised no one has mention the Tatteredermalion Witch, which can use rope as if it were a limb.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Cevah wrote: Grapple states you check on the NEXT round for maintaining.
I don't see how you get that as the SAME round.
/cevah
Greater Grapple ... move
Rapid Grappler ... swift
I get that these feats allow checks to be done faster.
What I don't get is this:
Grappel wrote: If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. This does not say you can maintain the grapple in the same round. It states you maintain the grapple each round. As you already spent your standard to make the grapple this round, and maintaining is also a standard, it is clear the maintenance does not occur in the round you make the grapple.
So what allows you to advance the grapple check to the same round?
Scott Wilhelm wrote: The Grapple rules specifically state that once the Grapple is established (with you the one in control of the Grapple) subsequent checks allow you to apply those other effects: Move, Damage, Pin, Tie Up. Grapple wrote: Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple). Please note that these (Move, Damage, Pin, Tie Up) are all done as part of the maintain action. You only maintain once per round. Yes, the feats let you do it faster, but they also confuse things by implying you can maintain a grapple multiple times a round, even though the grapple rules imply otherwise.
Greater grapple states you can make two checks per round.
Rapid Grapple does not say anything about allowing you an additional check in a round.
Ugh. The grapple rules need fixed.
/cevah
Cevah wrote: What I don't get is this: Grapple wrote: If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. Cevah wrote: This does not say you can maintain the grapple in the same round. It states you maintain the grapple each round. Does it say that once you have Initiated a Grapple, you have lost control of your character, and you have no choice but to continue to make Grapple Checks as a Standard Action each round? And that after that encounter is over, you have to continue to making Standard Action Grapple Checks for the rest of your character's Career?
Farmer settles onto his barstool at the end of Market day, and sees Borron the Barbarian grunting and lurching in the corner.
Farmer: What's up with that guy?
Bartender: That's Borron the Barbarian. He's that guy that Initiated a Grapple once. Now he has to keep maintaining it forever.
Farmer: Why doesn't he just release the Grapple as a Free Action?
Bartender: The GM says that he can't use that many Free Actions in a Round, especially since he has the Grappled Condition.
Farmer: my gods! Poor bastard! Buy that man a drink on me.
Bartender: I don't think he'll be able to drink it...
Obviously, that's a ridiculous interpretation, and I am not attributing it to you. But I think it draws attention to what that rule actually means.
It's a statement of duration. This is saying that a single check is good for a full round, and if you do not make a Grapple Check the next round, the Grapple automatically ends. What happens if you fail to take the Free Action to Release the Grapple, and you also fail to take the Standard Action to Maintain the Grapple? Well, that speaks to what happened to poor Boron the Barbarian, there.
A Grapple Check is a Standard Action that Provokes an Attack of Opportunity. A successful Grapple Check gives both parties the Grappled Condition, and the condition lasts for 1 round (unless your victim escapes the Grapple, of course).
Cevah wrote: As you already spent your standard to make the grapple this round, and maintaining is also a standard, it is clear the maintenance does not occur in the round you make the grapple. It certainly doesn't if a Grapple Check is a Standard Action, which is the case if you don't have Greater Grapple. You only get 1 Standard Action/round.
Cevah wrote: So what allows you to advance the grapple check to the same round? The Grappling rules do not say that you can't make more than 1 check/round. They say that making a Check is a Standard Action. The rules describing Actions in Combat say you only get 1 Standard Action/round. The Grappling rule say that once the Grapple has been Initiated, successive subsequent successful Checks allow you to do those other things in addition to maintaining the Grapple: Move, Damage, Pin, Tie Up.
The Greater Grapple Feat says you can make 2 checks/round to harm your opponent: the Standard Action one everybody gets and another one as a Move Action. The fact that it specifies that Maintaining the Grapple Check is a Move Action means I cannot Initiate the Check that way. In other words, if I am in combat with 2 opponents. I cannot Initate a Grapple with both of them: 1 as a Standard and 1 as a Move. It means I have to use the Move Action on the same opponent I used the Standard Action on (assuming the Standard Action was successful).
Cevah wrote: Rapid Grapple does not say anything about allowing you an additional check in a round. Doesn't it? Does it have to?
Rapid Grappler wrote: Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check at a –5 penalty. Look, if you can only make 1 check/round. This Feat has barely any meaning. Is there any rule that actually says you are only allowed to make 1 Check/round, or is it just the case that it takes Standard Action to make the Check, and you only get 1 of those?
Consider the Giant Octopus with 8 Tentacles, all with the Grab Ability. Do you think that Octopus is only allowed to make 1 Grapple Check/round? If there were a rule that said that you could only make 1 Grapple Check/round, that would be the case.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Cevah wrote: What I don't get is this: Grapple wrote: If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. Cevah wrote: This does not say you can maintain the grapple in the same round. It states you maintain the grapple each round. Does it say that once you have Initiated a Grapple, you have lost control of your character, and you have no choice but to continue to make Grapple Checks as a Standard Action each round? And that after that encounter is over, you have to continue to making Standard Action Grapple Checks for the rest of your character's Career? Actually, it does require you to make the check IF you want to maintain the grapple.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Cevah wrote: As you already spent your standard to make the grapple this round, and maintaining is also a standard, it is clear the maintenance does not occur in the round you make the grapple. It certainly doesn't if a Grapple Check is a Standard Action, which is the case if you don't have Greater Grapple. You only get 1 Standard Action/round.
Cevah wrote: So what allows you to advance the grapple check to the same round? The Grappling rules do not say that you can't make more than 1 check/round. But it does say you make a maintain check each round. Note check not checks.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: They say that making a Check is a Standard Action. The rules describing Actions in Combat say you only get 1 Standard Action/round. The Grappling rule say that once the Grapple has been Initiated, successive subsequent successful Checks allow you to do those other things in addition to maintaining the Grapple: Move, Damage, Pin, Tie Up.
The Greater Grapple Feat says you can make 2 checks/round to harm your opponent: the Standard Action one everybody gets and another one as a Move Action. The fact that it specifies that Maintaining the Grapple Check is a Move Action means I cannot Initiate the Check that way. In other words, if I am in combat with 2 opponents. I cannot Initate a Grapple with both of them: 1 as a Standard and 1 as a Move. It means I have to use the Move Action on the same opponent I used the Standard Action on (assuming the Standard Action was successful).
What you say requires you to maintain on the same round as you initiate the grapple. The grapple rules do not indicate that you can do that, and the feat does not grant this either. What it does is let you use a move to maintain leaving a standard to do something else.
Greater Grapple wrote: You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple. It then contradicts the grapple rules by implying that you can maintain twice in a round.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Cevah wrote: Rapid Grapple does not say anything about allowing you an additional check in a round. Doesn't it? Does it have to? Yes. The grapple rules only mention making a single check. Therefore, you need an additional rule to make additional checks. Greater Grapple has this wording, Rapid Grapple does not.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Rapid Grappler wrote: Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check at a –5 penalty. Look, if you can only make 1 check/round. This Feat has barely any meaning. Is there any rule that actually says you are only allowed to make 1 Check/round, or is it just the case that it takes Standard Action to make the Check, and you only get 1 of those?
Consider the Giant Octopus with 8 Tentacles, all with the Grab Ability. Do you think that Octopus is only allowed to make 1 Grapple Check/round? If there were a rule that said that you could only make 1 Grapple Check/round, that would be the case.
If you have these feats, you can make two maintain checks (with attendant effects) in a round, and still have a standard left over. With only Greater Grapple, you are left with only a swift. Freeing up a Standard for a Swift seems a fair value for a feat.
/cevah
Cevah wrote: Yes. The grapple rules only mention making a single check. Therefore, you need an additional rule to make additional checks. Greater Grapple has this wording, Rapid Grapple does not. Greater Grapple, a prereq for Rapid Grapple already grants you this ability. It specifically gives you the ability make 2 checks per round to harm your opponent.
Rapid Grappler specifically grants you the ability to make another Grapple Check as a Swift Action after you make a Grapple Check as a Move Action.
Both of these Feats let you make additional Grapple Checks in a Round.
And again, the Grab ability gives you the ability to make multiple Grapple Checks in a Round. A Druid that Wildshapes into a Giant Octopus gets Grab and Constrict with her 8 Tentacles, allowing potentially 8 Grapple Checks in a Round.
Likewise if you were a fighter 2 weapon fighting with say Morning Star and Armor Spikes. You'd get a Grapple check with every hit.
There are lots of ways within the rules that allow multiple Checks in a round.
Slyme wrote: Not a fan of the alchemist and tentacle thing for the flavor I am going for...but if I ever want to just super min-max a grappler, a couple levels might just be on the menu.
I can just picture a Cthulhu themed crazy mutated alchemist hug monster of doom...could be fun.
Creepy cyborg flavor vs. gross tentacle/tumor-growth flavor is a matter of taste, I suppose.
Temperans wrote: I'm kind of surprised no one has mention the Tatteredermalion Witch, which can use rope as if it were a limb. I will have to have a look at Tatterdermalion Witch!
I'm partial to White Haired Witch. I think it's worth a dip just to get an extra natural attack, but the thing that's cool about WHW is that when you Grapple someone in your Hair, you aren't Grappled, only they are, and you don't take the -20 on your check like you would with Grab. I think you could do something really cool with that.
I'm intrigued by the Beast-Bonded Witch. You can Polymorph into a creature of the same type as your Familiar. It's one of the few ways you can Polymorph into a Vermin. I'm thinking of a Cavalier, Order of the Penitent/Beast Bonded Witch with Greater Grapple. She Polymorphs into a great, big, spider, and when she Grapples and Ties you Up, she uses her own webs to do it!
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Cevah wrote: Yes. The grapple rules only mention making a single check. Therefore, you need an additional rule to make additional checks. Greater Grapple has this wording, Rapid Grapple does not. Greater Grapple, a prereq for Rapid Grapple already grants you this ability. It specifically gives you the ability make 2 checks per round to harm your opponent.
Rapid Grappler specifically grants you the ability to make another Grapple Check as a Swift Action after you make a Grapple Check as a Move Action.
Both of these Feats let you make additional Grapple Checks in a Round. Rapid Grappler (Combat) wrote: You are a quick hand at grappling.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 9th.
Benefit: Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check at a –5 penalty.
This lets you make the check as a swift. It does not let you make an additional check.
/cevah
Rapid Grappler (Combat) wrote: You are a quick hand at grappling.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 9th.
Benefit: Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check at a –5 penalty.
This means that once you spend your move action to maintain, you can then also make a swift action to do it again, but at a -5 penalty.
I will try to upload the text as a paste bin
It is weird because when I paste this link into my browser it works, but when I copy it from this site it does not work.
https://pastebin.com/RQWRVDp8
Let me know if that helps :)
Great discussion here so sorry I never checked back I just figured this post would go into the void !
Cevah wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Cevah wrote: Yes. The grapple rules only mention making a single check. Therefore, you need an additional rule to make additional checks. Greater Grapple has this wording, Rapid Grapple does not. Greater Grapple, a prereq for Rapid Grapple already grants you this ability. It specifically gives you the ability make 2 checks per round to harm your opponent.
Rapid Grappler specifically grants you the ability to make another Grapple Check as a Swift Action after you make a Grapple Check as a Move Action.
Both of these Feats let you make additional Grapple Checks in a Round. Rapid Grappler (Combat) wrote: You are a quick hand at grappling.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 9th.
Benefit: Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check at a –5 penalty.
This lets you make the check as a swift. It does not let you make an additional check.
/cevah It literally does let you make an additional check.
Rapid Grappler (Combat) wrote: Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action It says right there that you use this Feat after a grapple has been established, and not only that, but that you must have used a Move Action to Grapple.
Rapid Grappler (Combat) wrote: you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check Dude, there it is. You use your Standard Action to Initiate the Grapple, as per normal.
Greater Grapple says you can maintain the grapple as a Move Action, and you can make 2 checks per round to harm your opponent. So, boom, you make your roll, and now you got them Pinned, because the Grappling rules say that once a Grapple has been established, subsequent successful roles let you do the bad, nasty things like move, damage, pin, and tie up.
Rapid Grappler says "whenever you successfully use Greater Grapple to maintain the Grapple, you can make a check as a swift action." It doesn't say, "The round after you use Greater Grapple," it says "Whenever."
The Combat Rules say you get to make 1 Standard Action, 1 Move Action, and 1 Swift Action every round. Where is the rule that says that when you are in Grapple, you no longer get your Move and Swift actions? There actually are limitations on the kinds of Move and Standard Actions you can take. For instance, you can't actually Move when you are Grappled. But I don't see "make a Grapple Check" anywhere on the list of things you can't do while you are Grappling.
And again, if there were some overarching rule that says you only ever get 1 grapple check/round, that sure wasn't explained to the guy that wrote the stat block for the Giant Octopus. 8 Tentacles, all with Grab and Constrict. Too bad it only gets to Grapple with 1 of those Tentacles? Ridiculous.
Rapid Grappler (Combat) wrote: ... you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check.... Scott Wilhelm wrote: Rapid Grappler specifically grants you the ability to make another Grapple Check .... Cevah wrote: It does not let you make an additional check. It seems we do not read this statement the same way.
Please note that there are a number of feats that let you use an AoO in new ways or at new times. They do not, however, grant additional AoOs. I don't see this as being different. You get a new option on when & how to use the check, but you don't get an additional check.
/cevah
Cevah wrote:
Please note that there are a number of feats that let you use an AoO in new ways or at new times. They do not, however, grant additional AoOs. I don't see this as being different. You get a new option on when & how to use the check, but you don't get an additional check.
/cevah I think people have made a good point in this thread already that the AoO rules probably state only one per turn, where a Druid with 8 grabs could make 8 grapple checks because the rules don’t say only one grapple per turn. The limit imposed is by the type of action you must take to use grapple. If a feat said you may cast a spell as a swift action, you wouldn’t question you could use it in addition to a standard action spell.
Jurassicka wrote: Cevah wrote:
Please note that there are a number of feats that let you use an AoO in new ways or at new times. They do not, however, grant additional AoOs. I don't see this as being different. You get a new option on when & how to use the check, but you don't get an additional check.
/cevah I think people have made a good point in this thread already that the AoO rules probably state only one per turn, where a Druid with 8 grabs could make 8 grapple checks because the rules don’t say only one grapple per turn. The limit imposed is by the type of action you must take to use grapple. If a feat said you may cast a spell as a swift action, you wouldn’t question you could use it in addition to a standard action spell. Such a feat, however, does not give you an additional spell to use.
/cevah
Cevah, you yourself said that gaining more than 1 check/round isn't against the rules.
You wrote: Greater grapple states you can make two checks per round. And the Grappling rules clearly say that once the Grapple is established, subsequent successful checks let you Move, Damage, Pin, or Tie Up your opponent.
I don't like the fact that all the Grapple Checks made after the first are all called "maintain" checks. But the rules do allow for multiple checks, and the rules do say that every check after the first lets you do those bad things to your victim. Meanwhile, the rules do say you have to make 1 check/round to continue the Grapple, but the rules don't say you are only ever allowed 1.
Cevah wrote: there are a number of feats that let you use an AoO in new ways or at new times. They do not, however, grant additional AoOs. Sure, you get 1 Attack of Opportunity/Round.
You get 1 Standard Action/Round.
You get 1 Move Action/Round.
You get 1 Swift Action/Round.
Jurassicka wrote: a Druid with 8 grabs could make 8 grapple checks because the rules don’t say only one grapple per turn. The limit imposed is by the type of action you must take to use grapple. Basically, that.
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