What is the worst archetype?


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JiCi wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
JiCi wrote:

If we're talking about archetypes that don't benefit the base class, there are a lot to choose from...

- Blade Adept (Arcanist): you trade exploits for a Magus' Black Blade, except that you don't get exploits that temporary grant you a better BAB.
{. . .}

I've got a fix for this. Completely Rules As Written, to the best of my understanding. And doesn't even use Eldritch Knight.

You're multiclassing though...

I see multiclassing as extremely limiting, because you stop progressing in one ay in order to go another way. {. . .}

It's only a dip of 1 level, so you don't lose much Arcanist progression, and since you DON'T go Eldritch Knight, your Arcanist class features never fall behind by more than 1 level, and since Bloodline Development makes your Arcanist levels stack with the single Bloodrager level, your Bloodrager Bloodline Powers have no delay at all. Your Bloodrage won't progress, but since the Rage Spell fires it up just fine, you've got that covered starting at level 5, possibly even with a Wand (and you aren't even fatigued when it runs out).


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I personally just dislike multiclassing, so if an archetype or class requires a level or two in another class to be functional I consider that a problem.

Like the preponderance of Swashstigators points more to the Investigator class being too weak on the front end than anything else.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I personally just dislike multiclassing, so if an archetype or class requires a level or two in another class to be functional I consider that a problem.

Like the preponderance of Swashstigators points more to the Investigator class being too weak on the front end than anything else.

Also the front-loadedness of the swashbuckler. It’s an attractive dip for a number of builds and not much reason to go straight swash ever.


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born_of_fire wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I personally just dislike multiclassing, so if an archetype or class requires a level or two in another class to be functional I consider that a problem.

Like the preponderance of Swashstigators points more to the Investigator class being too weak on the front end than anything else.

Also the front-loadedness of the swashbuckler. It’s an attractive dip for a number of builds and not much reason to go straight swash ever.

Gotta say, I hate the Gunslinger and the Swashbuckler for being basically set in stone. The way their classes lack meaningful choices make them pretty uninteresting to play multiple times from a crunch standpoint. Even their archetypes tend to just flat replace abilities instead of giving them a pool of interesting choices. While I do like multiclassing under certain circumstances (I have an Orc Barbarian/Hunter and an Aasimar Sorcerer/Paladin/Monk/Dragon Disciple that I love) I find the 1 level dip into Inspired Blade to be a super cheesy way into getting Dex to Damage.

No idea how they managed to release a class with fewer choices than a Cavalier for goodness sake (then make the same mistake with the Shifter >_>). Still, not every class released can be a Hunter and not every archetype can be the Warrior Poet I suppose.


Personally I think Sword Saint can be fixed if a GM looks into letting Mithral Current from Path of War in. Or just bolting some things onto it from that Discipline.

Yeah the numbers are bad on Sword Saint but it suffers from the problem a handful of Archetypes, mainly ranged I believe, try to fill. "One Shot One Kill". It's one reason I think Sword saint gets a lot of hate besides it's own numbers, the fact you have to swing 4+ times or you're playing the game wrong. Hence Pounce on everything.

Personally a redo on Sword Saint should up the damage on the focus strike or add more riders to the blow(Like making the target vulnerable to your swing or vs Touch.)

-------------

Something I really wouldn't how to redo is Hidden Priest archetype for Clerics. Cause.., wow this seems designed for NPCs(OI Paizo, Pathfinder 2, start tagging stuff as NPC only or focused holy zen...)

So you lose out on one Domain power and one of your level 8 one as well. What do you get for this trade off?

Level 1 - You bluff your spells as something else with a Skill check. Oh and you get bonuses to secret Religious messages.

Level 8 - You can apply Silent Spell and Still Spell to magic you use. Once per day and again per 4 levels past 8(so 4 times total). You have to use both if you use this ability and while it doesn't increase the spell level, if the modded spell would actually BE above your highest spell level, it doesn't work.

So you give up 2 domain powers, for the ability to disguise your spell casting, and then get 2 metamagics that are kinda okay but also kinda meh with the ruling it has to be 2 levels below your highest spell level.

It's not horrible but I don't see the use of it outside of NPCs and maybe really cloak and dagger games. And even then you can probably draw up something else as a PC.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I personally just dislike multiclassing, so if an archetype or class requires a level or two in another class to be functional I consider that a problem.

Like the preponderance of Swashstigators points more to the Investigator class being too weak on the front end than anything else.

I think that investigators can be fine... but they aren't great as a dex class. If you want to grab a club and smash like any str alchemist, then you would probably be fine. The numbers are there...it is just that they are a mass of weird small ones bunched together. So like an alchemist, but much, much more complicated (which can be its own problem, but that is a separate issue).

So this is usual "I want to go dex to cut out str" multiclass shenanigans.


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If you want to use dex then usually you want to use it now, not in 3 levels time. That there's only a few such ways in PF is a problem but not one which makes inspired blade bad.

The investigator's problem is that it doesn't get a lot of support for any combat style until 3rd-4th level (investigator talent:mutagen {or something like that} & studied combat). A Str-based investigator still isn't any good in a fight in their first couple of levels, and could definitely use a dip in barbarian or something.


Indeed, an Investigator sans dip is fine at fighting... once they get to level 4. For those first three levels, the only thing your class gets you that is handy in a fight is first level extracts and a single talent.

Which is why the inspired blade dip is so popular- it gives you a functional combat style right out of the gate. But if I'm starting at 4th level or higher, I'd skip it. It's just those levels of "you are a worse rogue" are not fun.


MerlinCross wrote:

Personally I think Sword Saint can be fixed if a GM looks into letting Mithral Current from Path of War in. Or just bolting some things onto it from that Discipline.

Yeah the numbers are bad on Sword Saint but it suffers from the problem a handful of Archetypes, mainly ranged I believe, try to fill. "One Shot One Kill". It's one reason I think Sword saint gets a lot of hate besides it's own numbers, the fact you have to swing 4+ times or you're playing the game wrong. Hence Pounce on everything.

Personally a redo on Sword Saint should up the damage on the focus strike or add more riders to the blow(Like making the target vulnerable to your swing or vs Touch.)

-------------

Something I really wouldn't how to redo is Hidden Priest archetype for Clerics. Cause.., wow this seems designed for NPCs(OI Paizo, Pathfinder 2, start tagging stuff as NPC only or focused holy zen...)

So you lose out on one Domain power and one of your level 8 one as well. What do you get for this trade off?

Level 1 - You bluff your spells as something else with a Skill check. Oh and you get bonuses to secret Religious messages.

Level 8 - You can apply Silent Spell and Still Spell to magic you use. Once per day and again per 4 levels past 8(so 4 times total). You have to use both if you use this ability and while it doesn't increase the spell level, if the modded spell would actually BE above your highest spell level, it doesn't work.

So you give up 2 domain powers, for the ability to disguise your spell casting, and then get 2 metamagics that are kinda okay but also kinda meh with the ruling it has to be 2 levels below your highest spell level.

It's not horrible but I don't see the use of it outside of NPCs and maybe really cloak and dagger games. And even then you can probably draw up something else as a PC.

Hidden priest is made for a setting in Golarion where all religion is banned outright.

In such a setting, it's a powerful archetype. In every other, it isn't needed.

Not really right to judge it without the context of it.


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The best way I found for Sword Saint is: Sword Saint 10/Heritor Knight 6. This gets Vital Strike on the Iaijutsu Strike.

The problem of range could be fix with the Sharding enchantment.

******************
Another bad archetype is the Roughrider Fighter. You get no mount, but lose Weapon Training and Armor Training into making mounted combat better/easier.

Another possibly bad Archetype, is Vengeful Hunter Fighter. The reason being that you lose Weapon Training for abilities that activate when you are damaged by the target; And two of the abilities a Ranger gets a few levels earlier.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I personally just dislike multiclassing, so if an archetype or class requires a level or two in another class to be functional I consider that a problem.

Like the preponderance of Swashstigators points more to the Investigator class being too weak on the front end than anything else.

True enough. But the fact that Blade Adept has a Rules As Written fix (even if not elegant) that requires just 1 level of dip means that it isn't the worst archetype. Some archetypes just can't be fixed within Rules As Written.


I always saw Swashbuckler/Gunslinger as more of enabler classes. With the main job being to let players use finesse 1-h weapons and firearm respectively with more support/less problems.


Temperans wrote:
Another bad archetype is the Roughrider Fighter. You get no mount, but lose Weapon Training and Armor Training into making mounted combat better/easier.

Oh yeah, the roughrider. One person I talked to refused to believe that the archetype not having a mount wasn't just a typo. Though, if wooly rhinos and so on are as available for purchase as magic items of the same cost, mounted combat without the mount class feature is doable. At some levels possibly even more effective, heavy warhorses are lethal.


JiCi wrote:
- Two-Weapon Warrior (Fighter): Improved and Perfect Balance add absolutely NOTHING if you want to TWF with 2 one-handed weapon

Would you mind elaborating on this statement?


avr wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Another bad archetype is the Roughrider Fighter. You get no mount, but lose Weapon Training and Armor Training into making mounted combat better/easier.
Oh yeah, the roughrider. One person I talked to refused to believe that the archetype not having a mount wasn't just a typo. Though, if wooly rhinos and so on are as available for purchase as magic items of the same cost, mounted combat without the mount class feature is doable. At some levels possibly even more effective, heavy warhorses are lethal.

Yup, that sort of thing works better with either exotic mounts or Leadership.


Cavall wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Personally I think Sword Saint can be fixed if a GM looks into letting Mithral Current from Path of War in. Or just bolting some things onto it from that Discipline.

Yeah the numbers are bad on Sword Saint but it suffers from the problem a handful of Archetypes, mainly ranged I believe, try to fill. "One Shot One Kill". It's one reason I think Sword saint gets a lot of hate besides it's own numbers, the fact you have to swing 4+ times or you're playing the game wrong. Hence Pounce on everything.

Personally a redo on Sword Saint should up the damage on the focus strike or add more riders to the blow(Like making the target vulnerable to your swing or vs Touch.)

-------------

Something I really wouldn't how to redo is Hidden Priest archetype for Clerics. Cause.., wow this seems designed for NPCs(OI Paizo, Pathfinder 2, start tagging stuff as NPC only or focused holy zen...)

So you lose out on one Domain power and one of your level 8 one as well. What do you get for this trade off?

Level 1 - You bluff your spells as something else with a Skill check. Oh and you get bonuses to secret Religious messages.

Level 8 - You can apply Silent Spell and Still Spell to magic you use. Once per day and again per 4 levels past 8(so 4 times total). You have to use both if you use this ability and while it doesn't increase the spell level, if the modded spell would actually BE above your highest spell level, it doesn't work.

So you give up 2 domain powers, for the ability to disguise your spell casting, and then get 2 metamagics that are kinda okay but also kinda meh with the ruling it has to be 2 levels below your highest spell level.

It's not horrible but I don't see the use of it outside of NPCs and maybe really cloak and dagger games. And even then you can probably draw up something else as a PC.

Hidden priest is made for a setting in Golarion where all religion is banned outright.

In such a setting, it's a powerful archetype. In every other, it isn't...

Even with Context, enough Bluff or Diplomacy can probably get you out of a jam anyway. And I did mention Cloak and Dagger, have to be super sneaky, not wanting to show yourself for what you are.

I just maintain that you can probably roll something else, even within Cleric, and still be fine if you build right.


The DC for any bluff to make divine magic into arcane would vastly outnumber the DC 10 + x2 the spell this archetype gives.

And the other ability is spontaneous application of 2 meta magic feats without increasing spell casting times.

This is for a trade in on your choice of 2 domain powers? So you can keep your fav and trade in the other? I would say these are very much the equivalent and more of most domain powers.

You could even pick your fav subdomain by spells given and if the domain powers suck... who cares? So in a way it's even better.

This is not a bad archetype. Nor is even close to the worst.


Cavall wrote:

The DC for any bluff to make divine magic into arcane would vastly outnumber the DC 10 + x2 the spell this archetype gives.

And the other ability is spontaneous application of 2 meta magic feats without increasing spell casting times.

This is for a trade in on your choice of 2 domain powers? So you can keep your fav and trade in the other? I would say these are very much the equivalent and more of most domain powers.

You could even pick your fav subdomain by spells given and if the domain powers suck... who cares? So in a way it's even better.

This is not a bad archetype. Nor is even close to the worst.

We just have to disagree then like others in the topic have. It's good at ONE thing(Hiding yourself) and given you can do that with Skills and some items, you have to REALLY need to hide yourself.

Basically it's a bad archetype unless you're in Rahadoum and again, you can probably deal without having it.

Oh and this is more a rules question than anything. You said the archetype can throw on 2 metamagic feats without increasing spell casting times. Don't all Prepared spell-casters not increase spell casting time by default with Metamagic?


You would have to memorize the spell as a silent and still spell to prepare it as such.

This adds on any spell you have memorized so long as its 2 levels or less than your cap, and unlike a spontaneous caster wouldn't increase casting time.

It is the best of both worlds. No need to prep and no increased casting time.


@Cavall
As far as I know there's no actual mechanical way to even determine if magic is divine or arcane beyond witnessing a holy symbol being used (fallible as Oracles don't use them and False Focus arcane casters do), knowing the spell is divine only or testing ability that hose divine magic against it.


Scrutinize spell is a feat which tells you the class of the spellcaster if you see them casting a spell. Pretty rare, especially outside the Hellknights. There's no other means I know of.


blahpers wrote:
avr wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Another bad archetype is the Roughrider Fighter. You get no mount, but lose Weapon Training and Armor Training into making mounted combat better/easier.
Oh yeah, the roughrider. One person I talked to refused to believe that the archetype not having a mount wasn't just a typo. Though, if wooly rhinos and so on are as available for purchase as magic items of the same cost, mounted combat without the mount class feature is doable. At some levels possibly even more effective, heavy warhorses are lethal.
Yup, that sort of thing works better with either exotic mounts or Leadership.

We once had some one try and convince the dm to let them use another party member as the mount it was funny.


avr wrote:
Scrutinize spell is a feat which tells you the class of the spellcaster if you see them casting a spell. Pretty rare, especially outside the Hellknights. There's no other means I know of.

Arcane Sight also works for this, if you can cast the spell and don't want to consume a feat for it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Recall Knowledge use of Knowledge skills let’s you determine the type of magic as well, forgot what book it’s from. Really handy.


^Knowledge (Relegion): Recall Intrigues table says "Identify a class feature from another class that grants divine spells" (that is, not Druid or Ranger spells). From the Spymaster's Handbook (July 19, 2016 according to Amazon.com; June 29, 2016 according to pathfinderwiki.com).


deuxhero wrote:

@Cavall

As far as I know there's no actual mechanical way to even determine if magic is divine or arcane beyond witnessing a holy symbol being used (fallible as Oracles don't use them and False Focus arcane casters do), knowing the spell is divine only or testing ability that hose divine magic against it.

I do believe the point to the ability was that you present it as an arcane ability (singing or potions or wands etc...) and it's a roll to see that it is in fact divine.

So it's more that its forcing a +10 DC mod to see through the "bluff".

As I did not write the power that's what I'm getting out of it.

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