Help me build a musket master gunslinger


Advice


This friday I am playing a pirate themed campaign and just want help making my PC efficient. My race is a kasatha and i'm rolling stats. I've never made a gunslinger before so this is a bit new to me. Besides the the race and musket master you can do what ever. Before anyone suggests changing the race, I talked with my DM and he's allowing me to reload a single musket as a free action due to 4 arms.


>Free action reload
Well, enjoy the amazing buff your GM gave you.

The general archery feats, Point Blank Shot, (Improved) Precise Shot, (Improved) Snap Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim.

One cool way to go is grabbing an animal companion (Animal Ally + Boon Companion) and take riding/mounted feats.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tazmar wrote:
I talked with my DM and he's allowing me to reload a single musket as a free action due to 4 arms.

This does mean you don't really get anything from the Musket Master archetype, as its only real benefit is letting you reload muskets more quickly.

As SorrySleeping mentions, there's a laundry list of feats that almost all gunslinger builds need: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Deadly Aim should be your first four feats, no exceptions. However, once you have those feats and Musket Training (or Gun Training, if you choose a different archetype) you have everything you need and are free to do whatever you want. You can multiclass into pretty much anything you like; I'm personally partial to spellcasting but that's just me.


this is the musket master i'm playing in skulls & shackles; only 6th level and trust me on the vital strike

Bhaal, Ocean of Hate:

Rakshasa-spawn tiefling gunslinger (musket master, mysterious stranger) 6 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends 23, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 264, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 9, 50, 51)
CG Medium outsider (native)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +9
--------------------Defense--------------------
AC 25, touch 16, flat-footed 21 (+6 armor, +4 Dex, +2 luck, +1 natural, +2 shield)
hp 58 (6d10+18)
Fort +7 (+1 trait bonus vs. drugs or poisons), Ref +9, Will +4 (+1 trait bonus vs. mind-affecting effects)
Resist cold 5
--------------------Offense--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +5/+0 (1d3-1 nonlethal)
Ranged +1 holy spellbane ironwood double-barreled musket +8/+8/+3 (1d12+14/×4 plus 2d6 vs. spellcasters and 2d6 vs. evil)
Special Attacks deeds (deadeye, fast musket, focused aim, gunslinger initiative, pistol-whip, steady aim), grit (4), powerful build
--------------------Statistics--------------------
Str 8, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +6; CMB +5; CMD 21
Feats Deadly Aim, Gunsmithing[UC], Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Vital Strike
Traits cosmic caravan (the star gazer), reactionary, secret revolutionary (cheliax)
Flaws deaf, partial, grudge keeper
Skills Acrobatics +10, Bluff +10 (+8 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check), Diplomacy +5 (+3 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check), Disguise +4 (+2 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check), Intimidate +8 (+6 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +2, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +9, Ride +8, Sleight of Hand +8, Stealth +5, Survival +6
Languages Abyssal, Common
SQ fiendish sprinter[ARG], gunsmith, musket training, prehensile tail[ARG], stranger's fortune, vain
Other Gear +2 mithral chain shirt, +1 mithral sainte, +1 holy spellbane ironwood double-barreled musket[UC], 150 gp
--------------------Tracked Resources--------------------
Grit Pool (4/day) - 0/4
Stranger's Fortune (4/day) (Ex) - 0/4
--------------------Special Abilities--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deeds Use Grit to perform special abilities with your firearms.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Fiendish Sprinter 10-ft speed bonus when using charge, run or withdraw.
Grit (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on firearm crit/killing blow.
Gunsmith Gain free starting firearm that only you can use properly.
Gunsmithing You can use a gunsmithing kit to craft/repair firearms and ammo.
Musket Training (+4, misfire value -2) (Ex) Starting at 5th level, a musket master increases her skill with two-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a two-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Ev
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Powerful Build Can function as one size larger where advantageous.
Precise Shot (Scaling) You don't get -4 peanlty to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Prehensile Tail Your tail can retrieve small objects on your person as a swift action.
Rapid Reload (Double-barreled musket) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Reload (Musket) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Stranger's Fortune (4/day) (Ex) Ignore a firearm misfire.
Vain -2 to Cha checks for 24h after failing an opposed Cha check
Vital Strike (Scaling) Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at https://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.


Musket Master doesn't really do anything other than "lock" you into muskets. Although Stead Aim dead is arguably better than Gunslinger's Dodge and Utility Shot.

I am Nemesis wrote:
this is the musket master i'm playing in skulls & shackles; only 6th level and trust me on the vital strike

Vital strike isn't needed since he can full attack normally with a musket thanks to GM fiat. He is better off using full round attacks. Vital Strike is a good option if you aren't able to make full attacks though. The main problem is the Gunslinger isn't exactly full of feats and basic ranged combat already requires a ton of feats even without Rapid Reload.


I am Nemesis wrote:
this is the musket master i'm playing in skulls & shackles; only 6th level

I have a few issues and questions about your character, could you clarify please?

1. Musket Master and Mysterious Stranger don't stack.
2. You have seven feats. As a 6th level non-human, you should have 3 regular feats, one bonus combat feat, plus Gunsmithing and Rapid Reload as fixed bonus feats.
3. I presume you used retraining to get Vital Strike at 6th level?
4. Your equipment lists a "sainte", what's that?
5. What is that "spellbane" in your weapon description?
6. What is that ironwood in your weapon description? Items made with the spell have a limited duration.
7. How does a 6th level character afford a +3 equivalent weapon?


your probably right right about vital strike, i mostly did it to prove to another player it could be done. 2d12+14 ranged touch attack? not so much nonsense anymore!


Tazmar wrote:
This friday I am playing a pirate themed campaign and just want help making my PC efficient. My race is a kasatha and i'm rolling stats. I've never made a gunslinger before so this is a bit new to me. Besides the the race and musket master you can do what ever.

If you really want to make your character efficient, you won't stay in or posisbly even take the Gunslinger class. Gunslinger is an utterly dead class after 5th level (everything you get you could get better from (a) different class(es)). Trench Fighter would actually be the best way to get dex-to-damage, but that archetype may not be allowed.

Is staying in class an absolute must?

I am Nemesis wrote:
your probably right right about vital strike, i mostly did it to prove to another player it could be done. 2d12+14 ranged touch attack? not so much nonsense anymore!

Double-barreled musket is one of the better Vital Strike builds, but it just can't compete with a character with Haste (which may come from Boots of Speed).


Derklord wrote:

I have a few issues and questions about your character, could you clarify please?

1. Musket Master and Mysterious Stranger don't stack.
they stack in HeroLab, DM's ok with it
2. You have seven feats. As a 6th level non-human, you should have 3 regular feats, one bonus combat feat, plus Gunsmithing and Rapid Reload as fixed bonus feats.
our campagn allows for us to take 2 FLAWS; for each flaw you get 1 bonus featFlaws deaf- partial, grudge keeper
3. I presume you used retraining to get Vital Strike at 6th level?
nope
4. Your equipment lists a "sainte", what's that?
its a type of buckler with a blade
5. What is that "spellbane" in your weapon description?
any creatures with spells/spell-like abilities as though affected by a Bane Weapon
6. What is that ironwood in your weapon description? Items made with the spell have a limited duration.
ironwood can be a permanent(cy) material. it was given to me by a DM npc "No extra charge, savvy?"
7. How does a 6th level character afford a +3 equivalent weapon?
whoops! that's on me, i was wish-listing on what i'd put on the musket next and accidentally saved it

and i liked double barrel but the DM doesn't


Derklord wrote:
Tazmar wrote:
This friday I am playing a pirate themed campaign and just want help making my PC efficient. My race is a kasatha and i'm rolling stats. I've never made a gunslinger before so this is a bit new to me. Besides the the race and musket master you can do what ever.
If you really want to make your character efficient, you won't stay in or posisbly even take the Gunslinger class. Gunslinger is an utterly dead class after 5th level (everything you get you could get better from (a) different class(es)).

I beg to differ. I did a Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger I took to 11 to get Signature Deed and have permanent Dex+Cha to damage with my pistol of choice. I've also heard of Pistol Whip builds that go to at least 11 for Signature Deed as well.

I do agree the class is very front loaded, which makes it good for multiclassing, but there are also benefits to staying Gunslinger for more levels. Especially depending on the campaign, and your role in the party.


Don't really get why you're making this character a Musket Master; the only real benefit of that archetype is being able to reload your gun as a free action, which you can already do with the house rules provided.

Shadow Lodge

Do people just not notice the range increment for the Double-Barreled Musket? You pretty much need to be in melee to get a ranged touch attack...


Taja the Barbarian wrote:
Do people just not notice the range increment for the Double-Barreled Musket? You pretty much need to be in melee to get a ranged touch attack..

It's a typo, it's supposed to be 40'.


Isaac Zephyr wrote:
I beg to differ. I did a Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger I took to 11 to get Signature Deed and have permanent Dex+Cha to damage with my pistol of choice.

This is basically the only one where stying in class does provide some benefits, and it takes pretty long to become good - dex-to-damage is gained at 9th level, reliable cha-to-damage at 11th level, and you can only use a pistol until you can afford a 9800gp weapon. Also, unless your charisma mod is crazy high, the benefits aren't actually that big.

Isaac Zephyr wrote:
I've also heard of Pistol Whip builds that go to at least 11 for Signature Deed as well.

It's a single attack. How could that possibly be something worthwhile?

Isaac Zephyr wrote:
there are also benefits to staying Gunslinger for more levels.

Name them please. I'm not trying to be hostile here, I'm genuinly curious because I really don't see what you get from staying in class that you wouldn't get better from multiclassing. The 15th elvel deeds aren't bad (especially Slinger’s Luck), but hardly worth ten class levels (as the 7th and 11th level deeds all suck). Signature Deed is pretty crappy since the nerf, and the "never misfire" thing Pistolero and Musket Master used to have was errata'd away, too.


I am Nemesis wrote:

1. Musket Master and Mysterious Stranger don't stack.

they stack in HeroLab, DM's ok with it

They both replace Gun Training 1. So, nothing that would work for the OP.

I am Nemesis wrote:
our campagn allows for us to take 2 FLAWS; for each flaw you get 1 bonus feat

Again nothing that would work for the OP.

I am Nemesis wrote:

1. Musket Master and Mysterious Stranger don't 3. I presume you used retraining to get Vital Strike at 6th level?

nope

Then how do you get a feat with a prereq of BAB+6 at 6th level?

I am Nemesis wrote:

4. Your equipment lists a "sainte", what's that?

its a type of buckler with a blade

What book is that from? I can't find it anywhere.

I am Nemesis wrote:

5. What is that "spellbane" in your weapon description?

any creatures with spells/spell-like abilities as though affected by a Bane Weapon

So, custom weapon property? Once again nothing that helps the OP.

I am Nemesis wrote:
ironwood can be a permanent(cy) material. it was given to me by a DM npc "No extra charge, savvy?"

Neither the spell nor the Permanency spell says so. Sounds like yet another houserule.


Derklord wrote:
Isaac Zephyr wrote:
there are also benefits to staying Gunslinger for more levels.
Name them please. I'm not trying to be hostile here, I'm genuinly curious because I really don't see what you get from staying in class that you wouldn't get better from multiclassing. The 15th elvel deeds aren't bad (especially Slinger’s Luck), but hardly worth ten class levels (as the 7th and 11th level deeds all suck). Signature Deed is pretty crappy since the nerf, and the "never misfire" thing Pistolero and Musket Master used to have was errata'd away, too.

Well, one I did was a tri-gun build. I skipped over early Rapid Reload in order to run Gun Training with my favored Double Barrel Pistol, the Dragon Pistol, and the Pepperbox with early as possible Snap Shot and Quick Draw. It was kind of equivalent to being a prepared caster with multiple Dragon Pistols with different alchemical cartridges, and between two Double Barrels and the Pepperbox I had more loaded ammunition than I'd ever need in a single combat, favoring magic ammunition over magic weapons (a few like the doubles were +1 or +2 from treasure) since I only really needed ammo to crack DR. Dex to damage on more options as we went on was useful, Signature Deed Dead Shot so I wasn't missing out on full attacks, and the high AC from basically a Dex SAD character and Nimble made me pretty much untouchable.

I've also been tempted to try out the Black Powder Vaulter, going 11 to Signature Deed the Daring Vault deed for +20 feet of speed permanently. Building a character focused on the fact BPV pretty much all of its replacement deeds cost 0 and being stupid mobile. Looking at it though, it would be viable with the Mysterious Stranger (which is arguably my favorite archtype for the class), so doing the Stranger Cha+Dex with Signature would be arguably pretty fun. Only too bad it doesn't mesh with Musket Master or Pistolero due to conflicts cause reload on the run for two musket shot on the runs, or the in and out Pistolero shot on the runs would be a good combo.

In terms of the big ticket item though, the capstone True Grit. Not enough campaigns go that far, but my choices for it are almost always Deadeye to make my range increments basically not matter anymore, and Dead Shot assuming I didn't take it with Signature.


Depending on how the GM is ruling the reload speed of kasathas and how TWF works (may conflict with what the Bow Nomad archetype gives); I can see a TWF musket build which is very scary. I can also see a great Sword and Pistol [Musket] build.

Overall I say just build a regular gunslinger, maybe look at Mage Shot (Specially Acid since it doesn't have a save).


Derklord wrote:
(as the 7th and 11th level deeds all suck).

Wanted to address this on its own though, I've actually gotten a lot of mileage out of Targeting (Specifically legs and wings for gimping creatures for my melee allies, and torso in combination with any sort of improved critical for that sweet sweet 18-20 crit range on an ×4 weapon.), Bleeding Wound, and Lightning Reload (Even only once per round I've used it for partial full attacks to swap ammunition type halfway through, on your standard Gunslinger with pistol this gives you the action economy for the 3 attack full attack, so enough for base full at every level but 20 but not enough for Rapid Shot. Alternatively if you can get the revolver you can save your Swift as a Mysterious Stranger to activate your Cha+Dex.).

Bleeding Wound specifically has been a toss up of mine for a Signature Deed candidate, because that's a lot of bleed. Dead Shot is generally my better choice in the long run to crack through high DR, since pistols have a low damage output, and DR10/- pretty much negates the average Gunslinger. Since unless you're a Musket Master you can't really benefit from Clustered Shots, Dead Shot is a slightly less powerful alternative.


i should preface this by stating my gaming group uses a lot but not all 3rd party material my apologies if the build doesn't fit all tables.

Derklord wrote:
I am Nemesis wrote:

1. Musket Master and Mysterious Stranger don't stack.

they stack in HeroLab, DM's ok with it

They both replace Gun Training 1. So, nothing that would work for the OP.

then why does herolab allow it, i wonder. is it a bug in the program or is it really legal?
I am Nemesis wrote:
our campaign allows for us to take 2 FLAWS; for each flaw you get 1 bonus feat

Again nothing that would work for the OP.

HeroLab is set up for flaws. it allows you to pick 2. While i personally wrote in the flaws published by Dragon magazine, the herolab program has about ten to choose from.
I am Nemesis wrote:

1. Musket Master and Mysterious Stranger don't 3. I presume you used retraining to get Vital Strike at 6th level?

nope

Then how do you get a feat with a prereq of BAB+6 at 6th level?

retraining... i was in a rush when i wrote this and misread what you had said. apologies
I am Nemesis wrote:

4. Your equipment lists a "sainte", what's that?

its a type of buckler with a blade

What book is that from? I can't find it anywhere.

it can be found in the book "Heroes of the Jade Oath".
"A sainte is a light parrying shield with a blade at its pointed tip. The tip may be used as a one-handed, martial weapon. Once it is used to attack with, it no longer grants a shield bonus to armor class until the beginning of the characters next turn. "

I am Nemesis wrote:

5. What is that "spellbane" in your weapon description?

any creatures with spells/spell-like abilities is affected as though by a Bane Weapon

So, custom weapon property? Once again nothing that helps the OP.

spellbane appears in the Freeport Players Guild
I am Nemesis wrote:
ironwood can be a permanent(cy) material. it was given to me by a DM npc "No extra charge, savvy?"

Neither the spell nor the Permanency spell says so. Sounds like yet another houserule.

ironwood shows up HeroLab as core material, but doesn't list which book

Bhaal:

Rakshasa-spawn tiefling gunslinger (musket master, mysterious stranger) 6 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends 23, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 264, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 9, 50, 51)
CG Medium outsider (native)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +9
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 25, touch 16, flat-footed 21 (+6 armor, +4 Dex, +2 luck, +1 natural, +2 shield)
hp 58 (6d10+18)
Fort +7 (+1 trait bonus vs. drugs or poisons), Ref +9, Will +4 (+1 trait bonus vs. mind-affecting effects)
Resist cold 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +5/+0 (1d3-1 nonlethal)
Ranged +1 spellbane ironwood double-barreled musket +8/+8/+3 (1d12+14/×4 plus 2d6 vs. spellcasters and 2d6 vs. evil)
Special Attacks deeds (deadeye, fast musket, focused aim, gunslinger initiative, pistol-whip, steady aim), grit (4), powerful build
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 8, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +6; CMB +5; CMD 21
Feats Deadly Aim, Gunsmithing[UC], Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot (scaling), Rapid Reload, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Vital Strike (scaling)
Traits cosmic caravan (the star gazer), reactionary, secret revolutionary (cheliax)
Flaws deaf, partial, grudge keeper
Skills Acrobatics +10, Bluff +10 (+8 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check), Diplomacy +5 (+3 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check), Disguise +4 (+2 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check), Intimidate +8 (+6 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +2, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +9, Ride +8, Sleight of Hand +8, Stealth +5, Survival +6
Languages Abyssal, Common
SQ fiendish sprinter[ARG], gunsmith, musket training, prehensile tail[ARG], stranger's fortune, vain
Other Gear +2 mithral chain shirt, +1 mithral sainte, +1 spellbane ironwood double-barreled musket[UC], 150 gp
--------------------
Tracked Resources
--------------------
Grit Pool (4/day) - 0/4
Stranger's Fortune (4/day) (Ex) - 0/4
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deeds Use Grit to perform special abilities with your firearms.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Fiendish Sprinter 10-ft speed bonus when using charge, run or withdraw.
Grit (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on firearm crit/killing blow.
Gunsmith Gain free starting firearm that only you can use properly.
Gunsmithing You can use a gunsmithing kit to craft/repair firearms and ammo.
Musket Training (+4, misfire value -2) (Ex) Starting at 5th level, a musket master increases her skill with two-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a two-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Ev
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Powerful Build Can function as one size larger where advantageous.
Precise Shot (Scaling) You don't get -4 peanlty to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Prehensile Tail Your tail can retrieve small objects on your person as a swift action.
Rapid Reload (Double-barreled musket) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Reload (Musket) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Stranger's Fortune (4/day) (Ex) Ignore a firearm misfire.
Vain -2 to Cha checks for 24h after failing an opposed Cha check
Vital Strike (Scaling) Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at https://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.


I'm just going to clarify that when I asked my DM about how my race would work and I mentioned the fact that musketmasters get rapid reload on level one, he said that as long as I have my two other arms free, I would be able to reload as a free action. If you guys have a better rifle thing I could do i'm all for it. Really me being a musket master was just an idea considering they get rapid reload off rip and i'm planning on playing the long range game, with guns of course.

I do wonder if I should carry a backup rifle just in case of misfires. As I also am scared of what the DM might do to my character to nerf him, as this happens a lot to my characters in this group (past 3 got nerfed to high hell).

OH and I almost forgot, we are either starting at I believe at level 3 or 4.


@Isaac Zephyr: Presuming your average Gunslinger build:
Dead Shot is inferior almost always inferior to just full attacking, unless the DR is very high. In any case, Clustered Shots is a thing (why wouldn't pistols get to benefit from it?).
Startling Shot's and Targeting's debuffs usually pale in comparison to simply killing the target.
Lightning Reload is vastly inferior to Rapid Reload + alchemical cartridges.
Bleeding Wound's HP bleed is utterly irrelevant, and the ability score bleed, which costs a grit even with Signature Deed, takes two rounds before it does anything, at which point the target should definitely be dead.
Expert Loading is the most useful of the bunch, but you should get a Greater Reliable musket shortly afterwards (you can already have Reliable+Shadowshooting/shadowcraft pistol).

Isaac Zephyr wrote:
torso in combination with any sort of improved critical for that sweet sweet 18-20 crit range on an ×4 weapon.

17-20, actually, but that's still only 20% chance to threaten a critical hit. A full attack with Rapid Shot and Haste has a 34% chance to threaten at least one critical hit. The four attacks are basically like a guaranteed crit, anyway, so what's the gain?

Isaac Zephyr wrote:
I've also been tempted to try out the Black Powder Vaulter, going 11 to Signature Deed the Daring Vault deed for +20 feet of speed permanently.

You want to spend four levels just to get a +20ft movement speed? With Haste, you're at 60ft movement speed already, how much do you need?

Black Powder Vaulter is actually rather interesting because of Art of the Gun, to quote myself, "that's basically Deft Shootist Deed plus Snap Shot, without all those pesky prereqs. It might actually be worth taking two more levels in Gunslinger than usual for this." It's not easy to make it work with muskets, sadly, so mostly something for pistol builds (since Pistolero isn't good post-nerf anyway). Presuming you can resist the lure of the Shot on the Run-trap!


Tazmar wrote:
I do wonder if I should carry a backup rifle just in case of misfires.

That's what the Quick Clear deed is for. If you have Quick Draw, switching to a different firearm actually works better, though. At high-ish levels, Greater Reliable removes any chance for misfires.

So, your character can reload a musket as a free action with the Rapid Reload feat Every character can take that feat, so you're not tied down to Musket Master. Normally, even with alchemical cartridges plus Rapid Reload, you can't get a two-handed early firearm down to a free action reload, which is why the Musket Master's 3rd level deed is so important.

I am Nemesis wrote:
then why does herolab allow it, i wonder. is it a bug in the program or is it really legal?

That can only be an error in Herolab, as the rules for archetype stacking are crystal clear there.

Sainte and Spellbane are from 3PP books, and while ironwood is in the CRB, I don't see a way to make it permanent. If the flaw system is form a Paizo PF book, I can't find it.

Looking back, my post sounded a little hostile, sorry about that. I just wanted to show that your character's isn't really much of a helpful example, no offence meant.


Derklord wrote:

@Isaac Zephyr: Presuming your average Gunslinger build:

Dead Shot is inferior almost always inferior to just full attacking, unless the DR is very high. In any case, Clustered Shots is a thing (why wouldn't pistols get to benefit from it?).

Again, it's reload action economy. To get Clustered as early as possible, short of specifically Human or something else with Rapid Reload, you'll have Dead Shot same time as Clustered and have nothing else. (Assuming Pistol: Rapid Reload, Point Blank, Precise, and Clustered. On non bonus feat that your Feat 1, 3, 4, 5*, 7. Plus you'll be using Alchemical cartridges with larger misfire, a tradeoff I don't mind.)

I'm not here to convince anyone base Gunslinger abilities are better than the feats they mimic. They are a step down, but the fact the class gives them means you open the floor for other feats and builds. If you want to replace any deed by the level it's granted, usually you need to invest pretty deep into feat trees.

And you are correct, dead is the best debuff. Dropping a flier 20ft to the ground and fall damage, where my Barbarian can then rage smash him with a greatsword is a much faster way to get to that goal then me shooting it twice. Shooting a target in the legs to prone them so my rogue gets Sneak Attack, a much faster road then a second of my meager +dex bullets. It's a team game after all, and while the Gunslinger does certainly make a reliable damage dealer (if not a weak one compared to some of the other classes, which is why so often they're multiclassed), they have a very diverse toolkit for situations when not reduced to just pumping out the biggest damage numbers.

Targeting for the extended crit rate, also means higher crit rate at the cost of less chances to misfire, as with Alchemicals 1-2 is the misfire on most pistols. 10% to use percentile, so if every shot is 10% no weapon for a round (as Stranger looses Quick Clear, though has X misfire ignores so that's a thing) vs 20% percent crit, plus again reload economy if I haven't taken it, is a pretty sweet deal. Every shot is a gamble moreso than other characters. Your average roll will be neither, but when both can happen I'd prefer to stack the odds in my favor.

And nice as Reliable is, I cannot always guarantee to get a Reliable firearm. I could be in a campaign like Emerald Spire where getting custom items is a luxury. There's this big stigma about these forums like "Just get this!" like Agile weapons on any Dex character. Not all GMs allow you to pull or have whatever you want. I myself tend to be lenient with my players so long as they bring something to me first so I can read it over, check the publisher, and for errata compared to their sourcebook. I always advise them never to make a character reliant on a particular piece of equipment, or weapon enchantment, because I personally find it poor character design, and if something takes that away, say an anti-magic field, then their character is completely shut down and will not have a good time.


Derklord wrote:
I am Nemesis wrote:
then why does herolab allow it, i wonder. is it a bug in the program or is it really legal?

That can only be an error in Herolab, as the rules for archetype stacking are crystal clear there.

i'm going to do some research and emailing of a list of suspected bugs I've run across. maybe i can get some input on them.
Sainte and Spellbane are from 3PP books, and while ironwood is in the CRB, I don't see a way to make it permanent.
thats a op-player-to-dm conversation. depends on if their playing PFS rules or Open Gaming Licence (3rd Party) rules. on ironwood, IRONWOOD=Permanency?
If the flaw system is form a Paizo PF book, I can't find it.
it appears on the FEATS tab of HeroLab. says; Feat Slots, Flaw Slots, Trait Slots, Drawback Slot.
Looking back, my post sounded a little hostile, sorry about that. I just wanted to show that your character's isn't really much of a helpful example, no offence meant.
TO: Anyone who takes to heart any perceived insult or hostility directed at Yourself on any forum, i have this to say; Grow Up. Seriously. Grow a Thicker Skin

Derklord, I neither perceived nor took insult from your critique of my role-playing character, if not my character. ;-) I'm a grown-up. XD

(If my fellow gaming table player's & DM's read that they'd call bulls#!+)
As to my original post, i might have been showing off a little w/o giving proper context on my character's in's-&-out's.


Isaac Zephyr wrote:
To get Clustered as early as possible, short of specifically Human or something else with Rapid Reload, you'll have Dead Shot same time as Clustered and have nothing else. (Assuming Pistol: Rapid Reload, Point Blank, Precise, and Clustered. On non bonus feat that your Feat 1, 3, 4, 5*, 7.

Ignoring that you could grab bonus feats with those two levels you aren't wasting on a dead class (e.g. Fighter level(s)), the DR has to be very high in order to have Dead Shot pull ahead of just making a regular full attack without Clustered Shots. Dead Shot only multiplies the weapon base damage, with dex-to-damage and Deadly Aim, even making just your regular BAB attacks is ahead on damage even on high DR (without misfires, so you might be ahead in practise, unless Haste or Rapid Shot are included).

As Dead Shot costs grit, you can't make one every round (dito for Targetting, by the way). That means you need free action reload, and also want Rapid Shot, anyway. At which point the gain from the deed is negligble.

Isaac Zephyr wrote:
Dropping a flier 20ft to the ground and fall damage, where my Barbarian can then rage smash him with a greatsword is a much faster way to get to that goal then me shooting it twice.

That's presuming the target fails the fly check, which is certainly not guaranteed. And that the Barbarian is in melee range (pre-pounce), otherwise, you're trading multiple of your attacks for a single of his. And that the Barbarian doesn't have a means to fly.

Isaac Zephyr wrote:
Shooting a target in the legs to prone them so my rogue gets Sneak Attack, a much faster road then a second of my meager +dex bullets.

First, prone doesn't trigger Sneak Attack, and second, are the Rogue's sneak attack dice (or actually rather the additional hits from -4 AC on the target) really going to do more damage then the shots you're missing out on? It also doesn't work on anything with more than three legs (or no legs).

Isaac Zephyr wrote:
It's a team game after all, and while the Gunslinger does certainly make a reliable damage dealer (if not a weak one compared to some of the other classes, which is why so often they're multiclassed), they have a very diverse toolkit for situations when not reduced to just pumping out the biggest damage numbers.

Are you trying to tell me that those few deeds do more for a "diverse toolkit" than multiclassing can?

You don't multiclass because you need to to have a competitive damage dealer (the damage is actually perfectly fine if you can prevent misfires), you multiclass because your class is dead!

Isaac Zephyr wrote:
And nice as Reliable is, I cannot always guarantee to get a Reliable firearm. I could be in a campaign like Emerald Spire where getting custom items is a luxury.

If you can't rely on getting specific firearms, muticlassing into something like Occultist for the Legacy Weapon ability (from the transmutation implement) becomes especially useful.

Wouldn't you have problems getting the raw materials for ammunition and powder, too?

Agile has the problem that it's from pretty weird sources (an AP and a PFS specific book), while Reliable is form the hardcover book that introduced firearms in the first place. It's almost always the best choice for a firearm enchantment, and thus should realistically be pretty common.
Also, a real "custom weapon" would be one crafted wiht the pretty amazing Create Enhanced Firearm feat!

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