So, in our rise of the runelords campaign, my girlfriend plays Ser Levy tate, a potent psychic with the chain of perdition spell:
here is the language for chain of perdition:
The chain can perform the dirty trick (blind or entangle), drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers, using your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus, and your Charisma modifier (sorcerer), Intelligence modifier (wizard), or Wisdom modifier (cleric) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier. The chain does not provoke attacks of opportunity for making combat maneuvers. It suffers no penalty or miss chance due to darkness, invisibility, or other forms of concealment.
She also has the Kinetic enhancement biotech mod:
Kinetic Enhancement: You can generate kinetic energy to aid yourself in close-quarters scrapes. You can add your Intelligence modifier as a bonus on combat maneuver checks and to your CMD. You can also add your Intelligence modifier as a bonus on Strength checks to break or lift objects.
And finally, thanks to I, Trixie Starbright, awesome gnome bard, she is often under the effects of Heroism:
This spell imbues a single creature with great bravery and morale in battle. The target gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks.
And Inspire Courage:
A 1st level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard’s performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.
So my question is this:
What would the CMB of the chain of perdition be?
Would it be:
1: CL+Int(instead of STR)+Int (Bonus on CMB)+Heroism+Inspire courage
2: CL+Int(instead of STR)+Int (Bonus on CMB)+Heroism
3: CL+Int(Instead of STR)+Heroism+Inspire Courage
4: CL+Int.
I think it should be 1 but that does seem a bit strong....
Let me know where you fall on the issue (And no subjective interpretation please, yes the fluff says ''closer quarter combat'' but the fluff could easily be interpreted for the field to enhance his mental constructs)
Thank you!
There's a FAQ which stops you adding an untyped ability mod twice. I think it'd apply here which stops 1 & 2. The question between 3 & 4 is whether the chain is an extension of you or an autonomous actor. I think it's an extension of your mind so 3 but you could make a case the other way.
There's a FAQ which stops you adding an untyped ability mod twice. I think it'd apply here which stops 1 & 2. The question between 3 & 4 is whether the chain is an extension of you or an autonomous actor. I think it's an extension of your mind so 3 but you could make a case the other way.
And herein lies the rub, because in chain of perdition, it is not an untyped bonus but a replacement of your Str modifier. Thus by the language, it does not come from the same source.
If a wizard with 8 str uses drag, it would be -1 then +6 int (assuming 22 int)
If a wizard with 22 str uses drag, it would be +6 then +6 (assuming 22 int)
See why it's ambiguous?
For 3, I see heroism as working per say, (it's an ability check) but inspire courage is iffy because, is a chain a weapon? (it is an extension of you since it relies on your stats though)
Chain of Perdition creates a chain, and then the chain acts on its own (although it can be directed).
Kinetetic enchancement as no effect on the chain, anymore than it has on your Brawler companion, it is a bonus when you do the manuevers, not someone (or something else.)
The chain was not the target of the heroism spell. It has no effect on it.
The chain probably can't perceive the Bard's performance, that would be a GM call, but I would say no.
So in the case you describe, 4: CL + INT.
Chain of Perdition creates a chain, and then the chain acts on its own (although it can be directed).
Kinetetic enchancement as no effect on the chain, anymore than it has on your Brawler companion, it is a bonus when you do the manuevers, not someone (or something else.)
The chain was not the target of the heroism spell. It has no effect on it.
The chain probably can't perceive the Bard's performance, that would be a GM call, but I would say no.
So in the case you describe, 4: CL + INT.
But all of that assumes a ''sumonned'' type of minion, which this is not, it is an evocation (force) type of effect that is an extension of the caster's mind. (It's debatable, I am placing a counter argument to yours)
If it is an extension of your mind, then it would
-Have your kinetic field, why wouldn't you be able to project it? The chain is you (that one is less strong I'll admit)
-Have your heroism bonus, the morale bonus helps you perform better
-Have your inspire courage bonus, you hear the bard song and are blostered by it, and so is your chain.
It is a spell. It isn't an 'extension of your mind' which is something you appear to be making up. You would have to have rules that say it is part of you and any effects that apply to you also apply to it. Those rules don't exist.
Would you give the same answers for Black Tentacles? Or Grasping Hand which the designer said this spell is modeled on?
It is a spell that creates an effect that does what it says.
And herein lies the rub, because in chain of perdition, it is not an untyped bonus but a replacement of your Str modifier. Thus by the language, it does not come from the same source.
If a wizard with 8 str uses drag, it would be -1 then +6 int (assuming 22 int)
If a wizard with 22 str uses drag, it would be +6 then +6 (assuming 22 int)
See why it's ambiguous?
It's not ambiguous. A replacement is still an ability modifier being added. Whether the replacement increases the overall bonus is not an issue, you still can't add the same ability modifier twice. Unless it has a specified type at least once, of course.
It's not ambiguous. A replacement is still an ability modifier being added. Whether the replacement increases the overall bonus is not an issue, you still can't add the same ability modifier twice. Unless it has a specified type at least once, of course.And herein lies the rub, because in chain of perdition, it is not an untyped bonus but a replacement of your Str modifier. Thus by the language, it does not come from the same source.
If a wizard with 8 str uses drag, it would be -1 then +6 int (assuming 22 int)
If a wizard with 22 str uses drag, it would be +6 then +6 (assuming 22 int)
See why it's ambiguous?
So in your understanding, for chain of perdition that would be the case, but not for, say, telekinesis ?
It's not ambiguous. A replacement is still an ability modifier being added. Whether the replacement increases the overall bonus is not an issue, you still can't add the same ability modifier twice. Unless it has a specified type at least once, of course.And herein lies the rub, because in chain of perdition, it is not an untyped bonus but a replacement of your Str modifier. Thus by the language, it does not come from the same source.
If a wizard with 8 str uses drag, it would be -1 then +6 int (assuming 22 int)
If a wizard with 22 str uses drag, it would be +6 then +6 (assuming 22 int)
See why it's ambiguous?
I guess I have a hard time understanding how "strength modifier" is not a specified type but I see your point.
The wording of that FAQ is a hack to prevent people using all the ways that Charisma has been made into a combat-useful ability together.
Regardless, it works just fine on telekinesis; 'you use your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus, and you add your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier.' or 'using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer)' still won't stack Int with another untyped Int bonus, or Cha with an untyped Cha for that matter.
I'm terribly sorry, I meant that heroism and inspire courage would work since they affect the caster and thus the telekinesis, according to your earlier statement.
OK, I misunderstood. Yes, that's right, both those effects would definitely buff the caster of telekinesis and affect the telekinesis spell.