Elements from pathfinder 2e you wish were in starfinder


General Discussion


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It's the new shiny. There are some people who say that starfinder development was a "lab" for 2e development. (I'm sure it influenced it).

Obviously pieces of the system interact but assuming you can handwave away the boring 2nd order effects (e.g. if you make crits more common crit effect needs to be weaker / monster hit points need to go up) what would you like to see.

Personally
Choice based attribute creation (e.g. lifepaths)
Simplified action economy
Critting on high rolls and failing on low rolls (Starfinder spends time developing crit effects for weapons and fusions that don't come up (relative to the amount of ink they get in the book) )
Being able to invest actions into spells (there is a nod in this direction with magic missile in SF RAW but it would be nice to see more)

What are yours?

Liberty's Edge

A more manageable and sane multiclass system that prevents 1 level dip nonsense that is rampant in SFS and SF Characters in general.


I'd love to see the action economy in Starfinder. Also the Stat Gen, but that's mostly because I just kinda really dislike Starfinder's very small point buy.


I actually use the 3 action economy in my home game and it's fun as hell


Stinger-X wrote:
I actually use the 3 action economy in my home game and it's fun as hell

How do you run all the specific standard and full round actions? Envoy's improved get 'em, Bombard's heavy fire, the solarian & blitz soldier's standard action charges?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

PF2E's crit system would be a pretty big boon. Right now critical effects on weapons and fusions are basically dead to me. I've gone two whole levels without a single meaningful crit (That is, a crit against something that didn't die from the normal damage anyway). Why would I ever pay extra for things I might not even see happen for *two whole levels*?

I would appreciate the 3 action system. It's much smoother than "I attack twice, first hit at -4 kills them, I guess I'll move with the rest of my turn" nonsense.

The archetype system from 2E would be an enormous improvement over what we have now. If only it would work.

Multiclassing caster from 2E would be a big benefit. It'd be like Technomantic Dabbler, but worth something past level 3.

The skill system from 2E would be nice. Right now, my group just looks at our operative for every check which they generally pass easily while the rest of us sit on our hands.

I really wish they'd publish a "2E Compatibility Guide" for Starfinder. I'm liking a lot of the things they've done.


Garretmander wrote:
Stinger-X wrote:
I actually use the 3 action economy in my home game and it's fun as hell
How do you run all the specific standard and full round actions? Envoy's improved get 'em, Bombard's heavy fire, the solarian & blitz soldier's standard action charges?

Not Stinger, but I don't think it would be that hard to convert them. Full-Round Actions still take your Full Round, aka 3 Actions. Might take a bit more judgement call on Standard Action stuff, but I could see those either being 1 or 2 action things, depending on the situation. For instance, the Standard Action "move twice your speed and attack" Charge, IIRC from the PF2e Playtest, is actually a perfectly reasonable 2-Action activity for a martial class to get. In contrast, Improved Get 'Em I'd probably make a 1-action thing. The entire point of it seems to be messing with Action Economy, and if you made it a 2-Action activity then there would be literally no difference between using it to debuff-and-shoot an enemy and, ya know, just debuffing and shooting an enemy. While yes that would theoretically allow you to use it more than once in a turn, well, it's not like the bonus is going to stack so you have to spread your fire... and being able to do more cool stuff in a turn I'm pretty sure is a feature of the action economy, not a bug.


do the monsters in Pathfinder 2E have the reduced AC's like those in Starfinder? If not, would that swing the crit effects in to too powerful?

(I'm assuming they stuck with the 10 over AC system for a crit)


From what I remember of developer comments an enemy built with PC rules is supposed to at least roughly line up with benchmarks for a level X NPC, which absolutely would not fly in Starfinder, so I'm not sure how good an idea the +/-10 rules would be. Experimentation would probably be the best way to show if it is or isn't good though.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The action economy of Pathfinder 2.0 is beyond a doubt the best part. Its pretty much impossible to implement into Starfinder but I would have loved to have had that in this game.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Maps Subscriber

The only thing that I want from 2E in Starfinder is the action economy. Starfinder was a rebalanced version of Pathfinder 1. Is it terrible to say that I hope they don't change it for years yet?

Hmm

Sovereign Court

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There aren't that many things from 2E I want in Starfinder either. Sure, the action system could be interesting.

I'd like to meet in the middle on crits: I'd like more frequent crits that perhaps do less than double all the damage. Maybe the only extra thing crits do is the rider effect. But if they happen about 25% of the time, that becomes worthy taking a fusion for.

One thing that IIRC was from 2E: initiative order effects of going unconscious. If you get knocked down, I want your initiative to change to just before the attacker goes again. That way, everyone gets a chance to stabilize, and you might even get up again and do something. As opposed to someone bleeding out just before the healer can do something because they happened to be in an unfortunate turn order.


Shinigami02 wrote:
From what I remember of developer comments an enemy built with PC rules is supposed to at least roughly line up with benchmarks for a level X NPC, which absolutely would not fly in Starfinder, so I'm not sure how good an idea the +/-10 rules would be. Experimentation would probably be the best way to show if it is or isn't good though.

I'm fairly certain you can't let monsters do it, and probably a little weird for PCs.

Now, letting the critical effect happen without doubling the damage on +/- 10 should be mostly fine.


Garretmander wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:
From what I remember of developer comments an enemy built with PC rules is supposed to at least roughly line up with benchmarks for a level X NPC, which absolutely would not fly in Starfinder, so I'm not sure how good an idea the +/-10 rules would be. Experimentation would probably be the best way to show if it is or isn't good though.

I'm fairly certain you can't let monsters do it, and probably a little weird for PCs.

Now, letting the critical effect happen without doubling the damage on +/- 10 should be mostly fine.

I was just pondering that myself.


Hmm wrote:

The only thing that I want from 2E in Starfinder is the action economy. Starfinder was a rebalanced version of Pathfinder 1. Is it terrible to say that I hope they don't change it for years yet?

Hmm

Yeah, that's totally understandable. I just kinda hate how thin the 10-point stat gen is. And to be honest, outside of it throwing all the math for a loop, the Playtest (and possibly PF2e, I don't know yet if it survived the transition) stat gen would be the easiest thing in the world to convert, since all the pieces are already there.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Themetricsystem wrote:
A more manageable and sane multiclass system that prevents 1 level dip nonsense that is rampant in SFS and SF Characters in general.

You know, there is a solution to that already: forbid players from multiclassing unless it is solidly justified by their character concept. If they are taking a level of Soldier, not because they are a mustered-out soldier, not because they intend to embrace a warrior lifestyle, but because it will give them an extra couple proficiencies to use with their Operative or Technomancer class? Then they are taking it for the wrong reason.


I don't know if i want it there, but something it seems like they realized was a mistake in starfinder was that your AC is so low you're going to be hit anyway, so there's no point in upgrading your armor (beyond holding slots)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Ive seen very little multiclassing in starfinder.


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Gamerskum wrote:
Ive seen very little multiclassing in starfinder.

I see a lot of soldier dips. Pistols are really, really bad. If you want to shoot something else blitz gives you free heavy armor proficiency, free advanced weapon proficiency 10 feet of movement, and +4 init. Sharpshooter gives you functionally a +2 to hit. It also lets you pick up damage reduction at 5th instead of 7th

For envoys and solarions you also get to base your resolve off of your hit stat instead of your charisma


The lower damage dice on top of 1/2 level of Weapon Specialization was overkill. I don't know how extensive the playtest for Starfinder was, but here's some very questionable design choices in my eyes regarding its items, starship combat and the Operatives.

Sovereign Court

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The only multiclassing I see happening in Starfinder is dipping, mostly Soldier. Which suggests there's a problem to be solved that people are solving by dipping. Deal with that problem instead of trying to outlaw the symptom.

* Let Solarians treat their solar weapon as a finesse weapon if they want, and light armor dex/cha solarians become quite viable (with soulfire).
* Give Solarians heavy armor proficiency and you drastically reduce the MADness of the class with regards to AC/Resolve.
* Give envoys either longarm proficiency or a cool ability that works on small arms. Reduce the temptation to take soldier dips to be halfway dangerous.

I've not seen soldier dipping to be a widespread thing among mystics, technomancers or operatives. I don't think changes are needed there. Mechanics are probably also fine.

It's not a breakdown in the system if someone wants to make a frontline envoy and takes some soldier levels. It is a problem if the majority of envoys feel a need to dip soldier because they need a weapon that deals decent damage and a resolve stat that is useful for something else than resolve.

Would it be really weird to dissociate resolve from abilities entirely and just give everyone 4+1/2 level, rounded down? It would make life much less painful for solarians and envoys who don't use Cha to set save DCs. Would remove a major dipping incentive.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:

The only multiclassing I see happening in Starfinder is dipping, mostly Soldier. Which suggests there's a problem to be solved that people are solving by dipping. Deal with that problem instead of trying to outlaw the symptom.

* Let Solarians treat their solar weapon as a finesse weapon if they want, and light armor dex/cha solarians become quite viable (with soulfire).
* Give Solarians heavy armor proficiency and you drastically reduce the MADness of the class with regards to AC/Resolve.
* Give envoys either longarm proficiency or a cool ability that works on small arms. Reduce the temptation to take soldier dips to be halfway dangerous.

I've not seen soldier dipping to be a widespread thing among mystics, technomancers or operatives. I don't think changes are needed there. Mechanics are probably also fine.

It's not a breakdown in the system if someone wants to make a frontline envoy and takes some soldier levels. It is a problem if the majority of envoys feel a need to dip soldier because they need a weapon that deals decent damage and a resolve stat that is useful for something else than resolve.

Would it be really weird to dissociate resolve from abilities entirely and just give everyone 4+1/2 level, rounded down? It would make life much less painful for solarians and envoys who don't use Cha to set save DCs. Would remove a major dipping incentive.

The whole "key ability score" is phooey anyway. Giving Solarians baseline standard resolve and heavy armor proficiency would go a long way to curbing the soldier dip, but I would still take it for Heavy Weapon proficiency, Longarm proficiency, improved initiative, speed and a couple more class skills.

I don't personally feel that dipping has ever been a problem to fix, but I get why others do. I would prefer 2E multiclassing where every class is a viable "dip" rather than just the front loaded ones though.

If someone banned dipping without at least offering these changes I wouldn't play at that table.

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