Help for PFS bloodrager with very poor will saves


Advice

Dark Archive

Ok folks, I need some help.

I have a PFS character with a built in weakness. Wisdom of 8 (-1 will saves) and crossblooded bloodrager (-2 will saves). I had a plan to deal with and or mitigate this weakness. Unfortuantely, this PC has been sitting mostly idle for a couple of years and I just don't remember what my plans were for him.

He has a +2 Cloak of Resistance. He also has a Wand of Protection from Evil that he hands to an allied caster to use on him both before most encounters and if it seems like he might be controlled (for the second save).

I almost have enough cash to increase the cloak from +2 to +3. But I seem to vaguely remember that there was somethings in particular he was going to purchase to help with fear saves and mind affecting spell saves. Those are the 2 primary will saves that occur fairly often and can most change an encounter.

I could take the feats Iron Will and even Improved Iron Will, but that would use 2 of my precious feat resources and really just get him back up to marginally adequate. I'm almost sure that wasn't my original plan.

Do you folks have any suggestions on what else I might have intended to purchase in order to improve my success chances with those all important fear and mind will saves?

Here is the rest of his build if you are interested.

Magt Jaeger de'Morcaine 30504-6:

Male demon-spawn tiefling bloodrager (crossblooded, rageshaper) 5 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends 20, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 15, 83, 84, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 264)
N Medium outsider (native)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +9
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 12, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +2 Dex, +2 natural; +2 deflection vs. evil)
hp 49 (5d10+15)
Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +0; +2 resistance vs. evil
Defensive Abilities uncanny dodge; Resist acid 7, cold 7, electricity 7, fire 7
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft. (30 ft. in armor)
Melee mwk cold iron horsechopper +9 (1d10+4/×3) or
. . silver light flail +8 (1d8+3) or
. . bite +3 (1d6+1)
Ranged bow made from dragonbone +8 (1d8+3/×3)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with masterwork cold iron horsechopper)
Special Attacks blood casting, bloodrage (14 rounds/day), claws
Bloodrager (Crossblooded, Rageshaper) Spells Known (CL 5th; concentration +7)
. . 1st (2/day)—chill touch (DC 13), feather fall, shield
. . Bloodline Aberrant, Abyssal
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +8; CMD 20
Feats Armor Of The Pit[ARG], Combat Reflexes, Eschew Materials, Expanded Fiendish Resistance[ARG]
Traits friend in every town, unscathed
Skills Acrobatics +7, Climb +7, Craft (tattoo) +9, Diplomacy +3, Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (arcana) +9, Knowledge (local) +6, Perception +9, Ride +3, Spellcraft +5, Survival +3, Swim +4, Use Magic Device +3; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Abyssal, Common, Hallit
SQ abnormal reach, bestial aspect, demonic bulk, fast movement, furious transformation, prehensile tail[ARG]
Combat Gear cold iron arrows (49), potion of cure light wounds, potion of cure light wounds, potion of magic fang, potion of water breathing, wand of infernal healing (23 charges), wand of protection from evil (40 charges), acid, air crystal (2), air crystal, alchemical grease[APG] (2), alchemical grease[APG], alchemist's fire, antiplague[APG], antitoxin, clear ear, oil (2), oil, rager's aid[ACG]; Other Gear +1 dragonhide agile breastplate[APG], bow made from dragonbone (+3 Str) with 50 silver arrows, mwk cold iron horsechopper[ARG], silver light flail, cloak of resistance +2, furious amulet of mighty fists, traveler's any-tool[UE], adamantine wire saw[UE], bandolier[UE], bandolier[UE], bedroll, belt pouch, chain (10 ft.), cleats[APG], earplugs[APG], fishhook, flint and steel, grappling hook, masterwork backpack[APG], masterwork snorkel[UE], masterwork tool, mwk manacles, pathfinder chronicle[ISWG], pathfinder chronicle[ISWG], periscope[APG], pesh (adventurer's armory), potion sponge[ARG], potion sponge[ARG], potion sponge[ARG], sewing needle, signal whistle, silk rope (50 ft.), sunrod, swim fins, tindertwig, trail rations (8), waterskin (2), whetstone, wrist sheath, spring loaded, 484 pp, 13 gp, 10 sp, 5 cp
--------------------
Tracked Resources
--------------------
Acid - 0/1
Alchemical grease - 0/2
Alchemical grease - 0/1
Alchemist's fire - 0/1
Antiplague - 0/1
Antitoxin - 0/1
Bloodrage (14 rounds/day) (Su) - 0/14
Clear ear - 0/1
Cold iron arrows - 0/49
Pesh (Adventurer's Armory) - 0/1
Potion of cure light wounds - 0/1
Potion of cure light wounds - 0/1
Potion of magic fang - 0/1
Potion of water breathing - 0/1
Rager's aid - 0/1
Silver arrows - 0/50
Sunrod - 0/1
Tindertwig - 0/1
Trail rations - 0/8
Wand of infernal healing (23 charges) - 0/23
Wand of protection from evil (40 charges) - 0/40
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Abnormal Reach (Su) Increase reach by 5 ft when raging.
Bestial Aspect (increased polymorphed damage) (Su) Increase dam of nat attack granted by polymorph spell.
Blood Casting (Su) Cast bloodrager spells while in bloodrage.
Bloodrage (14 rounds/day) (Su) +4 Str, +4 Con, +0 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Demonic Bulk (Su) When entering bloodrage, can choose to increase size by one category (as enlarge person).
Energy Resistance, Acid (7) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (7) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (7) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (7) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Expanded Fiendish Resistance (Acid) You gain extra fiendish resistances.

Prerequisite: Tiefling.

Benefit: Pick one of the following energy types that you do not already have resistance to: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You gain resistance 5 to that energy type.\
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Furious Transformation (Su) Extend polymorph spells while bloodraging with a concentration check.
Magic Claws (Su) 2 Magic Claw attacks deal 1d6 damage.
Prehensile Tail Your tail can retrieve small objects on your person as a swift action.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed.

Grand Lodge

Multi class into paladin, to add your cha to saves


I think that at this point Iron Will should come after Power Attack. Best remedy against an enemy casting fear on you is smash 'em before they do.

The fact that you are a Tiefling is pretty handy, because that already makes you immune to Hold Person.

As for items, your go to was probably a Wayfinder with a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, but they nerfed those to hell and back.

Dark Archive

Syries wrote:
Multi class into paladin, to add your cha to saves

Neither Lawful nor Good.

Dark Archive

Secret Wizard wrote:

...

As for items, your go to was probably a Wayfinder with a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, but they nerfed those to hell and back.

I don't remember what they used to do, but now a wand of pro from evil is much better.


Just wanted to add though that your Will save isn't too bad, you can probably coast off Iron Will and Imp. Iron Will.

Too bad you are True Neutral, 'cause you could have added the Free Spirit feat if you were Chaotic.

Other feats like Stoic or Eagle's Resolve are there though.

If your CHA is ever 16 or higher, Steadfast Resolve becomes an option.

Shadow Lodge

Dip a level into Fractured Mind* Spiritualist with a Dedication Phantom?

  • Base +2 Will Save
  • +4 bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting effects while your phantom is in your head.
  • +2 to Will Saves from Iron Will while your Dedication phantom is in your head.
  • Once per day, you can transfer a mind-affecting effect to your Phantom and basically ignore it for it's duration (though you lose all benefits of the phantom for that period).

*The archetype changes your casting from Wisdom based to Charisma based.

Scarab Sages

Interesting. Is changing the casting stat the only thing you gain from fractured mind? It looks like everything else comes from a standard spiritualist. If so, then several classes could use this dip. Not just CHA classes.

Spiritualist would also give you Burst of Insight as a known spell if you want. You’d need Mad Magic to be able to use it while raging (if raging doesn’t also count against the emotional component). It would give a +4 to a single will save for an immediate action. It leaves you dazed for a round, but if you know it’s a dominate person or confusion, it may be worth it. Then even if you fail, you won’t be acting for a round giving your party a chance to protection from evil you before you murder someone.

I might consider this for my Bloodrager down the line. I think I had Iron Will in the build anyway, so I could trade that for Mad Magic. Or another feat if I want.

I swapped out my level 1 bloodline power for a hedgehog familiar, which gave me a +2 will save bonus. But I went crossblooded Arcane/Abyssal, and neither of the 1st level powers were all that great. What was your first level power? I’m not sure it’s possible to swap to a Bloodline Familiar above 1st level, though.

Also, I’m a little unclear how you have both Abnormal Reach and Demonic Bulk at 5th. Aren’t those both 4th level powers? Meaning you’d need to be 8th level to have both?


Some characters...you just retire, and you know why. -- Assuming you're human, your poor guy's will save is -7 behind a raging dwarf with the same pre-racial stats with a different class archetype and who has not take Glory of Old or Steel Soul yet.(

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Dip a level into Fractured Mind* Spiritualist with a Dedication Phantom?

[list]
  • Base +2 Will Save
  • +4 bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting effects while your phantom is in your head.
  • +2 to Will Saves from Iron Will while your Dedication phantom is in your head....
  • The main problem with this approach is that a lot of will saves are dumped on the PCs in the surprise round, and I'm guessing that the character is not an INIT-junkie, and therefore won't be raging yet when he has to make his first save of the encounter.


    Slim Jim wrote:

    Some characters...you just retire, and you know why. -- Assuming you're human, your poor guy's will save is -7 behind a raging dwarf with the same pre-racial stats with a different class archetype and who has not take Glory of Old or Steel Soul yet.

    what kind of munchkinnery is this

    don't retire characters because they have weaknesses, and much less if they have a weakness vis-a-vis the most munchkin build out there

    note, this is not an argument, this is a personal belief

    IMHO keep up at it, Improved Iron Will is stupidly good for PFS – that one Will save that matters comes once a game usually.

    Dark Archive

    Ferious Thune wrote:

    ...

    Also, I’m a little unclear how you have both Abnormal Reach and Demonic Bulk at 5th. Aren’t those both 4th level powers? Meaning you’d need to be 8th level to have both?

    Yeah, there seems to be a mistake in HeroLab. It is giving the Abnormal reach at both 4th level an 8th level. And it is letting them stack. So I have to remember to knock 5' off his raging reach.

    Ferious Thune wrote:
    ... What was your first level power? I’m not sure it’s possible to swap to a Bloodline Familiar above 1st level, though. ...

    The Abyssal claws. I usually fight with claws and bite when raging unless I really need the reach from the horse chopper.

    .
    .
    Secret Wizard wrote:
    Slim Jim wrote:

    Some characters...you just retire, and you know why. -- Assuming you're human, your poor guy's will save is -7 behind a raging dwarf with the same pre-racial stats with a different class archetype and who has not take Glory of Old or Steel Soul yet.

    what kind of munchkinnery is this

    don't retire characters because they have weaknesses, and much less if they have a weakness vis-a-vis the most munchkin build out there
    ...

    Other than my very first PFS character, ALL my PC's have a weakness (and even the first had the weakness of a very squishy caster). It makes them much more fun to play for me. However, I then also plan on things to help mitigate that weakness so he doesn't become more of threat than an assistance to the party.

    .
    .
    Taja the Barbarian wrote:

    Dip a level into Fractured Mind* Spiritualist with a Dedication Phantom?

    • Base +2 Will Save
    • +4 bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting effects while your phantom is in your head.
    • +2 to Will Saves from Iron Will while your Dedication phantom is in your head.
    • Once per day, you can transfer a mind-affecting effect to your Phantom and basically ignore it for it's duration (though you lose all benefits of the phantom for that period).

    *The archetype changes your casting from Wisdom based to Charisma based.

    Hmm... This seems work extremely well. I know this is not what I was planning on doing, since that book wasn't even out back then. Plus I wasn't planning on any dips that would delay his raging goodies. This gets serious consideration.

    This also wouldn't require giving up any feats while giving a better boost than any 2 feats. Hmm...
    .
    .
    Oh well. I guess the thing that bugs me the most is I know I had a plan to deal with this, now I can't remember it. I probably will dip a level of spiritualist.

    Thanks Muchly Folks!

    Scarab Sages

    Slim Jim wrote:
    Taja the Barbarian wrote:

    Dip a level into Fractured Mind* Spiritualist with a Dedication Phantom?

    [list]
  • Base +2 Will Save
  • +4 bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting effects while your phantom is in your head.
  • +2 to Will Saves from Iron Will while your Dedication phantom is in your head....
  • The main problem with this approach is that a lot of will saves are dumped on the PCs in the surprise round, and I'm guessing that the character is not an INIT-junkie, and therefore won't be raging yet when he has to make his first save of the encounter.

    You seem to have misunderstood the suggestion. None of those bonuses have anything to do with raging. They are all effectively always on while the phantom is housed in his mind. They are coming from taking a level in Spiritualist.

    Herr Magt Jaeger wrote:
    Ferious Thune wrote:
    ... What was your first level power? I’m not sure it’s possible to swap to a Bloodline Familiar above 1st level, though. ...
    The Abyssal claws. I usually fight with claws and bite when raging unless I really need the reach from the horse chopper.

    Yeah, if the claws are in the plan, that’s fine. I didn’t have much use for them, so I didn’t mind trading them away to shore up my save. Plus I get a sage familiar out of it so I don’t feel as bad about not having a ton of skills on the main character.

    Shadow Lodge

    Ferious Thune wrote:

    Interesting. Is changing the casting stat the only thing you gain from fractured mind? It looks like everything else comes from a standard spiritualist. If so, then several classes could use this dip. Not just CHA classes.

    Spiritualist would also give you Burst of Insight as a known spell if you want. You’d need Mad Magic to be able to use it while raging (if raging doesn’t also count against the emotional component). It would give a +4 to a single will save for an immediate action. It leaves you dazed for a round, but if you know it’s a dominate person or confusion, it may be worth it. Then even if you fail, you won’t be acting for a round giving your party a chance to protection from evil you before you murder someone.

    I might consider this for my Bloodrager down the line. I think I had Iron Will in the build anyway, so I could trade that for Mad Magic. Or another feat if I want.

    I swapped out my level 1 bloodline power for a hedgehog familiar, which gave me a +2 will save bonus. But I went crossblooded Arcane/Abyssal, and neither of the 1st level powers were all that great. What was your first level power? I’m not sure it’s possible to swap to a Bloodline Familiar above 1st level, though.

    Also, I’m a little unclear how you have both Abnormal Reach and Demonic Bulk at 5th. Aren’t those both 4th level powers? Meaning you’d need to be 8th level to have both?

    Yep, the archetype is just to change the casting stat since the OP dumped Wisdom and is (technically) already a charisma based caster: I was thinking about a non-archetyped dip for Taja since she has a 12 Wisdom.

    Honestly, the free 'Iron Will' feat from the Dedication phantom seems like it doesn't belong: None of the other phantoms give an extra bonus like this and I'm wondering if that was an error of some sort...


    multiclass into an Inquistor Spellbreaker archetype-

    Strong-Willed (Ex) At 1st level, a Spellbreaker is able to stand strong against magical effects that seek to control, compel, or persuade her. The Spellbreaker rolls twice and takes the best result when making a Will saving throw against a mind-affecting effect.

    This ability replaces monster lore.


    Taja the Barbarian wrote:


    Honestly, the free 'Iron Will' feat from the Dedication phantom seems like it doesn't belong: None of the other phantoms give an extra bonus like this and I'm wondering if that was an error of some sort...

    While neat for a dip, it's not that big of an addition for a regular Spiritualist because of their natural Will saves and WIS-focus, nu?

    Dark Archive

    I am Nemesis wrote:

    multiclass into an Inquistor Spellbreaker archetype-

    Strong-Willed (Ex) At 1st level, a Spellbreaker is able to stand strong against magical effects that seek to control, compel, or persuade her. The Spellbreaker rolls twice and takes the best result when making a Will saving throw against a mind-affecting effect.

    This ability replaces monster lore.

    While it would work, taking a level as a wisdom based casting class when my wisdom is 8. Well... I'm afraid that's just too cheesy, even for me.


    Ferious Thune wrote:
    Slim Jim wrote:
    Taja the Barbarian wrote:

    Dip a level into Fractured Mind* Spiritualist with a Dedication Phantom?

    [list]
  • Base +2 Will Save
  • +4 bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting effects while your phantom is in your head.
  • +2 to Will Saves from Iron Will while your Dedication phantom is in your head....
  • The main problem with this approach is that a lot of will saves are dumped on the PCs in the surprise round, and I'm guessing that the character is not an INIT-junkie, and therefore won't be raging yet when he has to make his first save of the encounter.
    You seem to have misunderstood the suggestion. None of those bonuses have anything to do with raging. They are all effectively always on while the phantom is housed in his mind. They are coming from taking a level in Spiritualist.

    I'm not really sure why I looked right at that and thought I saw "ID rager" even though neither of those words appear there. Anyway, if the game now how has a mechanism to pick up a +8 to your will save with a single dip and no feat investment, then yes, one should probably do that (...if one does not feel guilty in indulging the "kind of munchkinnery" I was recently needled for).


    Herr Magt Jaeger wrote:
    While it would work, taking a level as a wisdom based casting class when my wisdom is 8. Well... I'm afraid that's just too cheesy, even for me.

    haHaha. you make a valid point, but 1 level of inquisitor vs 2 levels of paladin vs a level of Fractured Mind Spiritualist with a Dedication Phantom vs iron will feat tree? if you want cheese, do three out of four!! XD

    Shadow Lodge

    Secret Wizard wrote:
    Taja the Barbarian wrote:


    Honestly, the free 'Iron Will' feat from the Dedication phantom seems like it doesn't belong: None of the other phantoms give an extra bonus like this and I'm wondering if that was an error of some sort...

    While neat for a dip, it's not that big of an addition for a regular Spiritualist because of their natural Will saves and WIS-focus, nu?

    It's just odd that none of the other phantoms get a bonus like this: Never actually seen anything to indicate it is an actual error, but it's still a bit weird...

    Shadow Lodge

    I am Nemesis wrote:

    multiclass into an Inquistor Spellbreaker archetype-

    Strong-Willed (Ex) At 1st level, a Spellbreaker is able to stand strong against magical effects that seek to control, compel, or persuade her. The Spellbreaker rolls twice and takes the best result when making a Will saving throw against a mind-affecting effect.

    This ability replaces monster lore.

    Starting with a +0 Will save, rolling twice is a bit underwhelming when the DCs are probably mid-teens or higher.


    Rolling twice is about a +5 on the save.

    On that topic, Cap of the Free Thinker is probably the best early investment in this regard, right?

    Wilding Mind is not particularly fantastic but does the job sometimes.

    Scarab Sages

    Talisman of Pentacle is much cheaper and attainable at a lower level.

    Talisman of Pentacle wrote:
    Pentacle Talisman: The five-pointed star carved on this round silver talisman glows blue whenever an evil creature targets the wearer with magic jar, possessionOA, or a similar effect, or with a charm or compulsion spell or effect that allows the creature to exercise control over the wearer (such as suggestion, but not sleep). If the spell or effect allows a saving throw and the wearer fails it, he receives a second saving throw. If he succeeds at the second saving throw, the wearer is also protected by protection from evil for 5 rounds.

    The only issue here is probably going to be that the character already has an Amulet of Mighty Fists.

    Dark Archive

    Yep, I had just recently purchased the Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists.

    I will consider the Cap of the Free Thinker though. I don't think I had plans for any other hat.


    I like scabbard of pain, tho it’s better for casters than martials. Scroll of heroism is probably reasonable as a standard consumable above maybe 5th level. And just always have protection from evil up.

    Dark Archive

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    Additional Traits with Fate's Favoured and a Lucky Horseshoe is +2 to all saves with a 1/day ability to up one particular save (e.g., a will save vs. confusion?). I use this on tons of my PCs to pick up more class skills or a X to Y trait (i.e., student of philosophy) so I can face and get a +2 to all saves. It is really useful for a L7-8 PC as the horseshoe is ~6,800 gp and affordable by then.

    Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Help for PFS bloodrager with very poor will saves All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.