... does anyone know?
Doing simple math conversion (look at 5ft. squares on combat maps, translate to full map), the city looks wwwaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy too small to hold "tens of thousands" - about 1,800 feet wide (east/west) and 700 feet tall (north/south) - and a rough guesstimate I read held approximately a square mile for every 38k.
That latter seeeeeeeeeeeeeems like it would put the area of Drezen at just about a square mile (seems like it fits the "tens of thousands" number). Given the city is rrrroooooooouuuuughly an ovoid with an extremely rough (by my guesstimations) 2.6 aspect ratio (wide to high), that's about 0.9097 miles (that's roughly 4800 ft.) from east to west and 0.3499 miles (that's roughly 1850 ft.) from north to south.
Is that right?
That doesn't seem very large - especially the north-to-south size, that's less distance than I have to walk to get to my store. While shorter creatures are certainly a thing in this setting (allowing you to fit more into less space), it still feels... small, for a city, to me, at least.
This is moderately relevant in our game, because we have some special effects that have unique, specified dimensions, and we're trying to figure out how much of the city is actually covered (including, potentially, all of it).
Anyway, thanks!
EDIT: just to be clear, I'm not suggesting the citadel itself is small - it's pretty friggin' huge on a map - but rather the city as a whole seems small. I do understand that we live in a much more spread out society than either medieval or Renaissance societies, but "less than half a walk to my local store" still seems small when we're trying to get across the size of a former metropolis. Also, one supposes Dollar General is not, strictly, a "grocery store," (and I don't specifically use them as such) and nor is CVS. So edited that word out.
For those of you that lack the physical media (have it stored away, temporarily borrowed, have played through it but not as GM, or whatnot), but want to look at stuff anyway...
Here!
Spoilers, naturally.
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For comparison:
Kraków Old Town had around 12 thousand of citizens. The N-S length is approximately 1.30 kilometer and around 900 meters in the widest W-E part. (EDIT: I found information that in 1450, the city had 15 thousand denizens and another source cites the area as 0.89 square kilometer)
The population boomed later to around 30 thousands in 1530, later dropping due to a series of diseases, and later the royal capital was moved to Warsaw reducing the central role of the city. (EDIT: The city area hadn't changed much - the surrounding walls weren't toppled down until XIX century, though some regions were added outside the walls in XVIII century).
It hadn't surpassed the population until much later, growing to 40 thousand only in 1840, some 50 years after the city area was increased by absorbing nearby villages.
For comparison:
Kraków Old Town had around 12 thousand of citizens. The N-S length is approximately 1.30 kilometer and around 900 meters in the widest W-E part. (EDIT: I found information that in 1450, the city had 15 thousand denizens and another source cites the area as 0.89 square kilometer)
The population boomed later to around 30 thousands in 1530, later dropping due to a series of diseases, and later the royal capital was moved to Warsaw reducing the central role of the city. (EDIT: The city area hadn't changed much - the surrounding walls weren't toppled down until XIX century, though some regions were added outside the walls in XVIII century).
It hadn't surpassed the population until much later, growing to 40 thousand only in 1840, some 50 years after the city area was increased by absorbing nearby villages.
Cool!
So, 12k-15k to a maximum of 30k for a significantly smaller area (though 4300 by 3000, if the area is, as noted, 0.89 sq.km, that's only 0.34 sq.mi.; 1 sq.mi. is almost 2.6 sq.km.), which is a nifty benchmark.
"Tens of thousands" (indicated former population of Drezen) indicates, to me, that it's somewhere between 20 thousand to 90 thousand (but would feel more appropriate ranging from 30k-80k).
Given it's not called "nearly a hundred thousand" anywhere () we can probably shave off the 90k mark. The minimum for a metropolis in PF is 25k, so that shortens the window from 25k to 80k; let's go 30-80k for ease/simplicity.
So, at minimum, it really should be around the 0.89 sq.km. value (though that seems unsustainable; invasion and destruction aside, it didn't seem unsustainable).
Hm-hm.
So, let's take an average of population and average of area and compare them.
(12k+15k)/2 = (27k)/2 = 13.5k population
(30k+80k)/2 = (110k)/2 = 55k population
Comparatively, That's a 4 times ratio (13.5*4.1 ~> 55), so would that make it a four times size value?
(4*0.34 sq.mi.) = 1.36 sq.mi.; that actually almost quasi-jives (roughly, at least with my over-use of far-too-much rounding ) with my vague guesstimates from before/above.
Interesting. Still "feels" way too small, but interesting, nonetheless.
Also, I'm sorry, NH, but all of this is rather strictly "off the napkin" math.
I'd happily take any corrections you might want to give!
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If it is a city designed after Pre-Victorian cities the following things should be remembered:
They were very small and cramped.
The living conditions were rather subpar.
They were often reliant on constant inflow of population from the rural regions, with negative population balance of their own (more people died than were born) due to various factors.
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I looked if there is information about the modern number of denizens, but regretfully the current "Old Town" district is much larger than the old area (over 5 square kilometers), including nearby regions that were absorbed later. It has around 33 thousand denizens, but the number steadily decreases as people are moving into suburbs and the region is turned more and more into a touristic and business zone (it was almost 50 thousands just 15 years ago), with numerous hotels, hostels, and other attractions.
If it is a city designed after Pre-Victorian cities the following things should be remembered:
They were very small and cramped.
The living conditions were rather subpar.
They were often reliant on constant inflow of population from the rural regions, with negative population balance of their own (more people died than were born) due to various factors.
This is absolutely true, though I tend to think Pathfinder settlements don't suffer from nearly so much plague and disease as was common in RL townships (due to low-grade adepts and alchemists running about). Probably more monster attacks, though, and, when combined with literally samller people (dwarves, halflings, gnomes) that seems like it might even out.
I looked if there is information about the modern number of denizens, but regretfully the current "Old Town" district is much larger than the old area (over 5 square kilometers), including nearby regions that were absorbed later. It has around 33 thousand denizens, but the number steadily decreases as people are moving into suburbs and the region is turned more and more into a touristic and business zone (it was almost 50 thousands just 15 years ago), with numerous hotels, hostels, and other attractions.
Thank you for looking!
Nobody's Home posted some stats on his home region, at present, which are worth comparing (though, again, that's modern, non-cramped standards), and James Jacobs made an awesome post about how he might guesstimate what the city was made for, without starting stats.
You guys all rock, and, though I lack the time to do the latter at present, this all helps! Thank you!
Still interested in any other factoids you wanna drop ('cause Poland and old cities are both pretty interesting topics, and, hey, I'm interested).