Unchained Rogue and normal Rogue talents.


Rules Questions


I've never understood why Unchained Rogue has such a limited talent list. Then I noticed Ninja trick on the unchained list. This seems silly since there is a ninja trick called rogue talent. So using that combo is there really a difference in the list? Or does Unchained just have some better versions of some talents AND access to all the other stuff too?


Pathfinder Unchained wrote:
This chapter includes unchained versions of the barbarian, monk, rogue, and summoner, as well as subsystems that alter character advancement. These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively).

If your character has levels in unchained rogue, then as far as those levels are concerned, the list of rogue talents under the class description (plus any rogue talents published afterward and specified as suitable for the unchained rogue) is the exhaustive list of rogue talents. Taking ninja trick (rogue talent) under such a circumstance would simply allow choosing from the same list of rogue talents already available to the unchained rogue.


blahpers wrote:
Pathfinder Unchained wrote:
This chapter includes unchained versions of the barbarian, monk, rogue, and summoner, as well as subsystems that alter character advancement. These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively).
If your character has levels in unchained rogue, then as far as those levels are concerned, the list of rogue talents under the class description (plus any rogue talents published afterward and specified as suitable for the unchained rogue) is the exhaustive list of rogue talents. Taking ninja trick (rogue talent) under such a circumstance would simply allow choosing from the same list of rogue talents already available to the unchained rogue.

Incorrect, it allows them to take any rogue talent (though no advanced talents). It does not restrict the list.


By very strict RAW it kinda works, even though it's more cherry picking than Brexiteers are trying to do. The "kinda" comes from Unchained explicitly putting the allowance process in the hands of the GM, even more than usual:

"These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively). Some feats, rage powers, rogue talents, and other rules might not work with the unchained classes, and such rules should be reviewed before being used with the new versions." Pathfinder Unchained pg. 8


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

PFS does limit an unchained rogue to the unchained rogue talent list.

In a home game, I would allow any rogue talent that is not revised, replaced, or otherwise rendered obsolete by the unchained rogue. (For example, Finesse Rogue becomes pointless.)

Liberty's Edge

willuwontu wrote:
Incorrect, it allows them to take any rogue talent (though no advanced talents). It does not restrict the list.

List, just because that's how you FEEL doesn't make it right.

Unchained Classes can only EVER take Unchained Class Choice, period flat-out.

There is no silly workaround via "Get X that lets trade for Y, which in turn let you pick Z" esp when it's clearly spelled out that that the class can never gain or benefit from Z. You're wrong.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I have to agree with PFS and say that, according to rules that I see, you must use the rules for your class. So, an unchained rogue does not get Offensive Defense which is one of my favorite rogue talents.


Themetricsystem wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Incorrect, it allows them to take any rogue talent (though no advanced talents). It does not restrict the list.

List, just because that's how you FEEL doesn't make it right.

Unchained Classes can only EVER take Unchained Class Choice, period flat-out.

There is no silly workaround via "Get X that lets trade for Y, which in turn let you pick Z" esp when it's clearly spelled out that that the class can never gain or benefit from Z. You're wrong.

well yes..

but one of the unchained talent options IS a ninja trick. and one of the ninja tricks (that as said above is allowed by the UNCHINED CLASS ABILITY) is the ninja trick 'rogue talent'. and that trick is set to take a chained rogue talent, as long as it's not a talent with the same name as a ninja talent.(which is also the unchained talent retricted backwards) so talents taht the ninja,chained and uncahined have with sme name can't be taken by this. anythin else should work fine.
what more the name thing is only if they are the same when exemening ninja to rogue anms. not chained to unchaiend so you actuly can end up with ,say, both kinds of minor magic talent, the chained and unchained kind...

Liberty's Edge

Unchaned Rogues are by prohibited from getting or using normal Rogue Talents though, it doesn't matter HOW you get it, if it's on the normal Rogue Talent list and NOT on the Unchained list, your character cannot take that trick.

The Unchained Rogue can take Rogue Tricks that were published at being valid with or without modifications for the Unchained Rogue, going through a few hoops to take a "Ninja Trick" in order to get a "Rogue Talent" STILL only allows you to take features that are approved for the Unchained Rogue, in effect the moment you take the Unchained Rogue Class you are permanently prevented from taking any Tricks other than those explicitly listed as functioning for Unchained Rogues, it doesn't matter what source its coming from, otherwise you woudln't even need to do this because the "Extra Rogue Talent" Feat itself doesn't mention Chained/Unchained considerations.

The wording was a bit shoddy, but the RAI is clearly there and PFS has already come out with a ruling here.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Non-unchained rogue talents simply don't exist for unchained rogues. They're alternate rule systems that are opted in/out on a per-character basis.

Scarab Sages

Ninja Trick wrote:
Note: A rogue cannot choose a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent.

I’m pretty sure that “Rogue Talent” the class feature and “Rogue Talent” the Ninja Trick qualify as the same thing based on this language, despite any semantic quibbling about the class feature itself not being a talent within the class feature.


Themetricsystem wrote:
The wording was a bit shoddy, but the RAI is clearly there and PFS has already come out with a ruling here.

Glad to know this is the PFS forums and not the non-pfs rules questions forum.

Per RAW the ninja talent allows you to take a rogue talent, not an unchained rogue talent.

If you can point out the relevant language in RAW that restricts the list for ninjas to unchained talents only, then it would be limited to unchained talents only. Otherwise there is none.


Restricting the list for ninjas is not necessary. One need only demonstrate that a rogue either uses the vanilla or unchained version of the rogue class description, but never both from the same class. That relevant language has already been cited above. Rogue talents are part of the rogue class description. You get vanilla or unchained, but never both from the same class. When an unchained rogue takes ninja trick (rogue talent), they select a rogue talent, and the only existing list of rogue talents for an unchained rogue is the one in the unchained rogue class description.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

To explain a bit more, both unchained and original rogues have the same class: Rogue.

There are two published versions of the class now, but they are still just the 'Rogue' class.

If you choose the Rogue class from the unchained option, that is what the rogue class is for that character. If that rogue takes ninja trick and then tries to take rogue talent, the rogue talent from the ninja ability is exactly the same.

Despite the convention of calling it that, there is no class called 'Unchained Rogue.' The class is 'Rogue' using the unchained alternate rules, and the RAW from ninja talent is that us can take a Rogue talent, from the rules (original or unchained) that you are using for that character.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Unchained Rogue and normal Rogue talents. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.