So tempting to shout "Final countdown!"


Advice


So between a sick little one and just life in general my great 3 weeks to make a character is down to 5 days. Sadly the posts keep dying, not sure if it is because I'm looking at obscure classes, the mentioning of PFS or heck maybe I'm perfect and no advice needed. (Sarcasm)

So it has come down to two classes.
Witch doctor shaman... I plan to go life and probably knowledge down the road. The witch doctor gives me some disposable channels to use with fateful channel. I was planning to go with a 14 str and reach tactics but started to wonder if I should put the feats towards extra hexes and get evil eye, chant and misfortune up and running asap (probably slumber too) I keep going back and forth I havent had much luck with reach on my skald and never went full caster/debuffer. Also somebody mentioned taking a level monk but never explained.

The other is haunt collector Occultist. I was leaning towards going archery (I had a blast playing a inquisitor and bane with rapid shot was always fun) But I would have to take a dip in fighter to get up and running at least by level 3. I'm debating on just going melee, I like the idea of going sword and shield but I would miss the multiple attacks. I'm going for transmutation and necromancy to start...legacy weapon for the flexibility to put any +1 enchant from the get go is nice. Necromancy for the undead companion and 5+ soulbound puppet for the ability to make a sage or protector familiar on demand.

This is basically a lvl 2 PFS character who is in the Dark Archive.


So Ekibus my advice is just to pick one.. since you are so great at everthing and obviously there is no better advice then your own. Sigh seriously nothing?


I don't think Evil Eye is actually as useful as Slumber or Misfortune. Saves you a feat. I don't actually know Witch Doctor that well but I'd say a buffed Shaman with reach tactics and hexes is going to be a beast.


So I recently read through the Occult classes and I'm in LOVE with the Occultist. Haunt Collector is probably a slight upgrade on the base Occultist just because of the ability to swap out useless resonant powers for something else nice. The Elf/Halfling FCB looks game-changingly strong for an Occultist, so if you don't have a race chosen I'd go one of those,or Half-Elf for the Elf FCB (but I can't remember if that's an option in PFS). Half-Elves also have an alternate-racial trait that gives +2 to Will Saves, which is pretty great for a psychic caster. I'd avoid the dip if I were you, but 6/9 casters can afford a 1-level dip without too much worry, so if you think it's worth it then great.

What other Implements were you thinking of using? And which ones will you likely be making Haunted Implements? Are you going Trappings of the Warrior (I don't think you can in PFS, but I could be wrong)?

A final note: For Archery you're slightly worse-off than the Inquisitors/etc, because it takes a standard action to activate your Bane ability, but as long as you can act in the surprise round that's only 1 lost attack (which means you want a good Perception). There are also a LOT of standard action powers in the Occultist's Repertoire, which REALLY encourages a reach-build. If you're gong Archery I'd really look at Implements that give you swift/immediate-action abilities (I'm sure you've seen this a lot already).

.

I didn't get quite as excited about Shaman (I LOVE the flavour of the Occultist), but my brief look at it made it seem VERY powerful. I didn't go through the spell-list as well as I could have, so it may not have as stellar options as some other full-casters, but if it does then it seems like you could make a pretty unbreakable character. As far as Reach-tactics all you really need is a reach weapon and Combat-Reflexes (Combat-Reflexes isn't "needed", but it does make it better). 14 STR (& 12 DEX if going Combat-Reflexes) is enough to encourage enemies to go around you, and if they miss a turn because they took the long way round that's as powerful as a Hex. You can build around damage, but even just tripping them as they charge past will take away their turn (again, trip ~= hex). This means you could absolutely focus on debuffs/etc and still stand between the enemy and the wizard. Beyond that I don't really have much advice since I haven't played one. The "Monk" advice is likely about getting WIS to AC (which you really don't need), but also gives you bonus feats (eg. Combat-Reflexes). You can get some different bonus feats by looking at archetypes as well, but unless someone's says something that makes you take another look I probably wouldn't worry.

If it were me I'd go Occultist, but you're not me, so it really is up to you =P


As much as I like Occultists, I'd have to offer different advice. Go for the Shaman. Spend you feats, for the most part, on hexes. Get Protective Luck if it is PFS legal (I don't know, I don't do PFS) and Chant. Now you don't have to worry about Will saves to force rerolls.

I currently play a Witch Doctor Shaman in a home game (not PFS). I picked the Nature Spirit as my main and used Waves as my wandering until I picked up Spirit Talker, then I switched to Life. I picked up Crashing Waves from the Waves spirit with Spirit Talker.

My main shtick was using metamagic reduction along with Benthic Spell (metamagic) to turn Pale Flame (2nd level version of Produce Flame) into a control spell that knocked down creatures at range with touch-bludgeoning damage. When I got access to Imbue with Spell Ability, I began imbuing my allies with spells so that I could turn my attention to other things than healing (when needed), which mostly turned into using my hexes more often.


JiaYou wrote:
I don't think Evil Eye is actually as useful as Slumber or Misfortune. Saves you a feat. I don't actually know Witch Doctor that well but I'd say a buffed Shaman with reach tactics and hexes is going to be a beast.

I see a lot of people who don't like Evil Eye. It's probably not the best Hex, but it's better than people give it credit for.

I go into it at length HERE.

I also see a lot of love for Slumber. It is a phenomenally powerful hex, but I find it extreeeemly boring. The enemy fails their save and the encounter is over (hurrah?), or the enemy passes their save and you've wasted your action. There's a little more to it than this - and I can absolutely understand why people take it - but it's not for me.


Sorry, should have specified that I think Evil Eye is useful at level 8 when the effect gets bumped, but not as much at lower levels.


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JiaYou wrote:
Sorry, should have specified that I think Evil Eye is useful at level 8 when the effect gets bumped, but not as much at lower levels.

Well what you said was: "I don't think Evil Eye is actually as useful as Slumber or Misfortune." ...which is actually 100% correct =P

Misfortune is mathematically a better de-buff if it lands, but you really want Cackle (or Chant I think for the Shaman?) to make the duration worth it. And if you want a powerful de-buff then Slumber is probably the hex for you. I just wanted to give Evil Eye a little love


Yeah had a whole thing half written out but didn't have time to continue so I deleted most of it instead of post incomplete blahblahblah. For a Shaman, who generally has arguably a larger pool of options than a witch, putting too many eggs in the hex basket isn't a great idea.


Thanks all, a lot to unpack..
@Jiayou So the big thing I like about evil eye is the fact it can be used against a opponent multiple times. Think that makes it the only hex capable of doing so.

@MrCharisma Yeah there are some nice things in the occultist..which is what makes this hard. So sadly trapping of warrior is not allowed..which I desperately wish otherwise. At level 1 necro and trans...those would be my major investments. Abjuration at level 2 for defensive spells (haunted champion) At level 6 divination Then at 10 illusion. My thought would be to take a level of fighter for the extra feat at level 2 and then train out of it at 5 for straight occultist. I was debating on a straight sword and shield. What is really nice is legacy weapon can actually be used on another's weapon so I could give the super archer in the party the bane on bow. It could be really cool but I'm starting to worry that it will take awhile to finally get moving.

@Deathlessone Sadly I checked protective luck isn't legal. Thought spirit talker was pretty much nerfed..maybe you are using the old version, if not how are you using it? I'll have to look into your build a bit more.

I admit I'm starting to lean toward the shaman at this point. As MrCharisma mentioned slumber either sucks or is broken..plus it gets sticky killing a bad guy when they no longer can fight...darn morals.
So my idea is Human with 14 str, 12 dex, 12 con, 13 int, 16 wis and 13 cha. The plan is if I go reach I would do combat reflexes at 1..retrain the extra feat at level 2 to take extra hex so at level 2 I would have 2 hexes..at level 3 selective channel and finally at 5 I would take fateful channel. I really like fateful channel but I'm starting to wonder if I should give up on that route..I give up a lot for it so starting to wonder


ekibus wrote:
@Deathlessone Sadly I checked protective luck isn't legal. Thought spirit talker was pretty much nerfed..maybe you are using the old version, if not how are you using it? I'll have to look into your build a bit more.

Apparently, I am using a form of Spirit Talker that has been errata-ed. Either way, the build is still functional with the Waves spirit and not using the Life Spirit. Witchdoctor would give me enough channeling power to get by with. Good thing I am playing a home game and don't have to worry about that particular nerf. Either way, it is a shame. Benthic spell does not appear to be PFS legal, though you could still Elemental Spell instead.

And, it is a bummer than Protective Luck is not allowed. It is one of my favorite hexes, though can't be used on yourself.

Quote:

I admit I'm starting to lean toward the shaman at this point. As MrCharisma mentioned slumber either sucks or is broken..plus it gets sticky killing a bad guy when they no longer can fight...darn morals.

So my idea is Human with 14 str, 12 dex, 12 con, 13 int, 16 wis and 13 cha. The plan is if I go reach I would do combat reflexes at 1..retrain the extra feat at level 2 to take extra hex so at level 2 I would have 2 hexes..at level 3 selective channel and finally at 5 I would take fateful channel. I really like fateful channel but I'm starting to wonder if I should give up on that route..I give up a lot for it so starting to wonder

If you are going to get selective channel, I HIGHLY recommend Purifying Channel (its PFS legal) if your Charisma is 15 or more. You can even combine it with Fateful Channel. Nothing like healing AND buffing your party while frying one of the enemies at the same time.

If you want to play a build similar to my own, just shoot me a PM and I'll get you the outline. I focus more on Dex/Wis/Cha than anything else.


+1 for the Evil Eye love. As a witch it's probably my most used offensive hex on account it's flexible (can't target AC with Misfortune), still applies a penalty on a successful save and you can use it repeatedly on the same target. If I could take only tow of the three hexes I'd go for Evil Eye and Misfortune. Personally I'd go for Flight over Slumber; of all the witch hexes I use Flight the most. You get at-will Feather Fall, a +4 bonus to swim, Levitate 1/day and Fly for 1 minute per level. That's a fair amount of utility for just one hex, though I'm speaking as a witch and the shaman might have better options I'm unaware of.


Wow, completely forgot that you can use it multiple times.


I was debating on the flight hex, my worry is the witch doctor takes a lot of hexes for a decent channel pool and a couple other abilities. Trying to utilize that takes feats, trying to get combat of course takes feats and trying to get a decent selection of hexes will take feats.

@Deathlessone Purifying channel is pretty cool but wouldn't see it until later levels so not sure if it would be worth it. By level 9 (cha 15) most critters seem to have fire resist. Anyways I'm curious about your idea I'll send a message.


Slumber is a good hex, there's no denying that (unless you're in an undead/construct/elf etc. heavy campaign) but going by my experience Flight is something I benefit from every single session both in combat and out of combat. Slumber has definitely had its moments, such a putting a chimera to sleep mid-flight but the Flight hex has always been a reliable option.


Hmm ok I planned out the shaman/witch doctor to level 5 and it kinda confirmed my fear. With one extra hex feat I would have just 2 hexes. I would only have Fort +2, ref +2 and will +7 Ac 16 and 36 hp. :Longspear woult be 2 attacks of opp at +5 1d8+3 (with divine favor it would add +2)

I would have (3) 3d6 channels and (5) 1d6 and those effected by it would have 2 rounds to take the reroll.

Now granted at level 6 I would finally get arcane enlightenment and would get 2 spells from 1-3 (probably heroism and haste)

I kinda feel meh..I would probably take evil eye and chant so I could debuff when not channeling but I would really want to get lifelink but I'm worried about the HP..granted at 5 I would be able to split the damage with my familiar and the familiar would have fast heal so it might even out...but still feel stretched in hex..so maybe skip chant to get the lifelink.

Took it out to level 10 and still no extra hexes but 2 feats, channels stay the same...which I think kills the idea for me. I'll try to make a regular shaman in a bit to see if that works better.


So now if I ditch witch doctor and the channel route the character becomes a bit more rounded but I feel the idea gets mooted and other choices become less then useful. For example is it worth spreading the stats for 2 arcane spells or is it better to get other stats up, since cha isn't as much of a factor. Then is Life really a good main spirit, but then if I'm not going life is the familiar really needed...sigh the rabbit hole.

So with 24 hours the question becomes if I'm going the right way. Granted I haven't really touched the shaman spells/cleric spells so there might be gems there. I'll have to look at Deathlessone's build today, with work and a sick little one it's been tough. Advice is welcome, I hope you guys don't think I'm all over the place...but then I haven't had any caffeine yet.


Sigh 12 hours and still no clue


Honestly, I'd advise you to forget about the Arcane spells. I feel it stretches you waaaay to much. Here is my suggestion:

Half-elf (for the favored Class choices)
-Rounded Ears (skill points)

Str: 14, Dex: 13, Con: 12, Int: 10, Wis: 16 (14+2), Cha: 14
(Drop Charisma to 12 if you don't want Purifying Channel, boost Dex)

Shaman (Witch Doctor)
Life Spirit (Main)
Waves Spirit (Wandering)
Trait (Wayang Spellcaster or Magical Lineage [Pale Flame])
Trait (Exalted of the Society)
1) Combat Reflexes
2) Hex [Evil Eye]
3) Elemental Spell
4) Waves Spirit (Wandering)
5) Elemental Spell
6) Wandering Hex (Crashing Waves)

The main draw of this build is to get Channel early but it delays access to the Crashing Waves Hex.

OR

Shaman (Witch Doctor)
Waves Spirit (Main)
Life Spirit (Wandering)
Trait (Wayang Spellcaster or Magical Lineage [Pale Flame])
Trait (Exalted of the Society)
1) Combat Reflexes
2) Hex [Crashing Waves]
3) Elemental Spell
4) Waves Spirit (Wandering)
5) Extra Hex (Evil Eye)
6) Wandering Hex (Water's Shroud)

I like this progression even though it delays access to the Life spirit (and channel). What it does do, however, is give you plenty of options to control the field as well as push people away from you so that you can put distance between them and yourself, setting them up for an AoO so long as you 5ft step away after using Wave Strike. Combining the saving throw lowering of Evil Eye, the forced save on a water spell (Crashing Waves), and the additional triggering of an AoO on standing up, you will do rather well. Not to mention being able to drop a fog cloud at level 6 and striking anyone who goes through it.

After level 7, I'd tell you to focus on getting Selective Channel and Purifying Channel (or Fateful Channel, if that's your choice), but that is up to you. Things to remember is that you can cherry pick cleric spells off of the Cleric list with the favored Class bonus. You can even added 5tf of range to your hexes with the other options.

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