TWF Rogue Help Needed (PFS)


Advice


I have the Adventurer's Guide and loved the Elven Leafblade and Elven Thornblade. So, I decided to build a TWF rogue for PFS. I just entered level 4, then played a module chronicle sheet to apply to make me 5th and and have another module from being the GM on another adventure to make me 6th level. However, I am not happy with my AC, my attack (main hand +6 when TWF and piranha strike), though am OK with my damage (d4 + 10 + 3d6 sneak) with what I built up at 6th.

I have the following statistics:
level 4 Elf unchained rogue (CG, Desna) -> level 6 with 2 modules applied
S 10, D 18, C 14, I 14, W 12, Cha 9
15,468 gp on hand from 2 modules

feats/talents:
martial weapon proficiency (elven leafblade)
piranha strike
TWF
[finesse from unchained]
weapon focus (elven leafblade)

traits:
birthmark
warrior of old

main items currently:
+1 mithral chain shirt
+1 cloak of resistance
mw cold iron elven leafblade *2

I built my character up to level 6 (adding two-weapon defense and trap spotter for feat+talent, a +1 adamantine leafblade, and explored +2 dex belt, +1 mithral agile breastplate, +1 ring, +1 amulet), but my attack is pretty weak (as noted above).

I'd like to get invisibility, but I would need to cast it in advance by dipping an arcane class and using wands/scrolls. Alternatively, I could retrain my weapon feats to combat reflexes, dodge, and mobility to enter shadowdancer prestige class. Another option is to get The Whole Time talent and a wand of invisibility. Or get to 36 fame (when I am currently at just 19) and spend 20,000 gp on a ring.

I'd like to get a decent AC without hurting my attack. I'm thinking of taking a level of Ranger so I can: wear the mithral agile breastplate without hurting my to hit with ACP, cast lead blades/CLW/heightened awareness from wands, increase hp slightly, not hurt skills too much, retrain my leafblade proficiency into weapon focus for elven thornblade (since I would be an elven ranger and be proficient already then in both those weapons [elf treating elven weapons as martial and actually having martial weapons as a ranger]).

Any recommendations? Starting a new character as a TWF slayer or ranger seems a poor solution, since I am 6th level with 15,468 gp on hand to patch up some deficiencies.

Grand Lodge

Invest in UMD and keep a wand of shield in a spring loaded wrist sheathe. Same with scrolls of mirror image. I always recommend investing in UMD for some basic defenses or utility. It even helps beat invisible creatures with scrolls of see invis. And while the DCs can be high it’s certainly feasible by 6th level.

As for your attack potential, consider a few things:
1) you’re going to do more damage getting one attack in with sneak attack from flank than a full attack without flanking, because you’re at an effective -4 to hit (no flank bonus and -2 from twf) so you’ll miss some of those attacks anyway.

2) You probably have high initiative. If you invest in UMD get a wand of heightened awareness and use it liberally for an additional +4. Buy a masterwork heavy wrist crossbow. First round of combat make a ranged attack against a flat footed target- you’re almost certainly going to hit- to get some sneak attack damage in. Move up but leave some wiggle room for you to set up a flank with an ally.

3) piranha strike should only be used when you’re not TWFing. Too many penalties for a class that doesn’t get many bonuses to hit. You shouldn’t be TWFing if you’re not getting sneak attack damage. Unless the target’s AC is super low, piranha strike should be used if you’re not TWFing and you should only TWF if you’re getting sneak attacks

Consider the pressure points ninja trick. Every time you hit a target and deal sneak dmg, you can deal -1 Dex to the target. Every two hits is an additional -1 to their AC. and don’t forget Debilitating Injury to make that target even easier to hit.

Grand Lodge

One level urban bloodrager gives you more attack and damage + using wands with bloodrager spells without UMD.
Offensiv defence rogue talent is quite nice to debuff to make you harder to hit.

Grand Lodge

*Khan* wrote:

One level urban bloodrager gives you more attack and damage + using wands with bloodrager spells without UMD.

Offensiv defence rogue talent is quite nice to debuff to make you harder to hit.

OP would be able to retrain that MWP feat, assuming the elf has weapon familiarity trait.


You don't seem to have a really good way to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage. Personally, I like to have more than 1 in the same character.

You mentioned Invisibility and dipping. I'd do Arcanist. In addition to being able to use Wands of Invisibility and Greater Invisibility, you can also use the Arcane Exploit Dimensional Slide, a 10' Teleport that does not end your turn, and so is a great way to achieve flanking.

I like the Ninja Vanishing Trick. As a Rogue, you'd need to take the Ki Pool Rogue Talent then you can take Ninja Tricks as a Rogue Talent.

There is a Rogue Talent called Underhanded Trick. Underhanded Trick gives you the Dirty Trick Feat without needing the Prerequisites. You can use Dirty Tricks to Blind your opponents, and then you get your Sneak Attack Damage. If they have Blindsight, you can play another Dirty Trick and make them Deaf, too!

Level 2 Snakebite Striker Brawlers can Feint as part of their Move if they have Improved Feint. If you hate multiclassing--most players seem to--comfort yourself that while you divert yourself with the 2 levels in Brawler, you still get a +1d6 to your Sneak Attack Damage.

I was really thinking of this idea for a sniping Rogue, and yours seems pretty melee, but there is a Rogue Talent called False Attacker. If you attack from hiding, you get a free Bluff Check. If it succeeds, your attacker thinks your attack came from some other direction, so you don't need to make that Stealth Check at a -20. Then take advantage of that dip in Arcanist and attack with Jolt, Acid Splash, or a Wand of Scorching Ray: ranged touch attacks vs. Flatfooted AC that lock in Sneak Attack Damage. Just try and say that without an evil grin splitting your face open!

That's probably more ideas than you can put in a single character. Pick and choose any or all or none, and enjoy the game.

Grand Lodge

Unchained rogues do not get the ki pool talent, unfortunately. Only the significantly weaker chined rogue does.

For that matter, chained rogues are the ones able to get bombs, while unchained rogues miss out on that too.


Syries wrote:

Unchained rogues do not get the ki pool talent, unfortunately. Only the significantly weaker chined rogue does.

For that matter, chained rogues are the ones able to get bombs, while unchained rogues miss out on that too.

You could dip 3 or 4 levels in Monk, Drunken Master?


JoeElf wrote:

I have the Adventurer's Guide and loved the Elven Leafblade and Elven Thornblade. So, I decided to build a TWF rogue for PFS. I just entered level 4, then played a module chronicle sheet to apply to make me 5th and and have another module from being the GM on another adventure to make me 6th level. However, I am not happy with my AC, my attack (main hand +6 when TWF and piranha strike), though am OK with my damage (d4 + 10 + 3d6 sneak) with what I built up at 6th.

I have the following statistics:
level 4 Elf unchained rogue (CG, Desna) -> level 6 with 2 modules applied

What does "level 6 with 2 modules applied" mean? (You can play an iconic of higher-than-1st at the table to fill in, but unless the campaign rules have changed lately, your "living" character always begins at 1st-level.)
Quote:

S 10, D 18, C 14, I 14, W 12, Cha 9

15,468 gp on hand from 2 modules
IMO your build is over-invested in intelligence and under-invested in charisma (i.e., where a fat hunk of your skills are based); rogues already get 8 skills/level; they don't absolutely need 10 when every other class is getting by with half that. The 15,15,14,14,10,7 20pt array in an elf could look like: Str: 7, Dex (15>16+2=18 @ 6th), Con (14-2=12), Int (10 +2 = 12), Wis 14, Cha 15 (raise 8th).
Quote:

feats/talents:

martial weapon proficiency (elven leafblade)
These are racial weapons for your elf; you shouldn't need feats for proficiency in them.
Quote:

piranha strike

TWF
[finesse from unchained]
weapon focus (elven leafblade)

I built my character up to level 6 (adding two-weapon defense and trap spotter for feat+talent, a +1 adamantine leafblade, and explored +2 dex belt, +1 mithral agile breastplate, +1 ring, +1 amulet), but my attack is pretty weak (as noted above).

Over the years, I've steadily soured on Power Attack/Piranha Strike for anything but nuclear barbarian builds.A positive attrition ratio is what wins fights, and the rogue's (whether unchained or not) biggest problem is getting hit. As a Con-penalized elf, this is particularly problematic, and therefore Job #1 is making that incredibly difficult.

Suggestion: raid this build for ideas around a Defensive Fighting chassis, delaying Piranha Strike (etc) until AC is squared away. When the enemy needs a confirmed Nat20 to hit you, you breathe much easier, and don't care if you're doing less damage per swat the frontliner full-BAB martials. Healing expenses dwindle as an irritant, and you can unwind and enjoy your character as the goading trash-talker a melee rogue should be!

Scarab Sages

*Khan* wrote:

One level urban bloodrager gives you more attack and damage + using wands with bloodrager spells without UMD.

Offensiv defence rogue talent is quite nice to debuff to make you harder to hit.

Offensive Defense is not legal for an Unchained Rogue.

To the OP, I'll agree that Piranha Strike is probably not the best option here. It's useful to have when you're hitting easily or when you come up against something that is immune to sneak attacks (or worse, immune and has DR/-, like an elemental). In general, though, when you're in position to get sneak damage, you want to hit. And the Rogue, even the Unchained Rogue, doesn't have many boosts to accuracy.

Two-Weapon Defense is likely not worth the feat. First of all, you could just take Dodge. Second, there are many ways to be able to cast the shield spell when you need it. For my Ninja, I went with the wand as has been suggested. If you're worried about getting UMD high enough, there's the Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone. Buy that for 2,000gp and either a scroll with 6 castings for 150gp or a pearl of power/runestone of power or two so that your party Wizard/Sorcerer/Arcanist can fill the stone for you without losing their spell/slot. You can also pay for spell casting services between scenarios to have the stone filled. Now you can cast it without a roll, and someone can refill it using the scroll.

Buy the Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2 asap, as that helps all of your worrisome areas. To-hit, AC, and even damage.

I'd probably make at least one of the weapons magic, since you're already 6th level, and not having a magic weapon at that point is not great.

Don't try for a Mithral Breastplate. It will briefly increase you AC slightly, but for the cost of making it mithral, you could just make your chain shirt +2. With a +2 belt of DEX, you'll already be at the max dex of the breastplate, even with it mithral. When you eventually get a +4 belt, you wouldn't get that additional AC wearing the breastplate.

Eventually make your off-hand leafblade Menacing to double your flank bonus.


Slim Jim,
I was trying to say (sloppily now that I re-read it) that I played this character into 4th level mainly with scenarios. Then I played a module, so I would technically be 5th level from playing. I then ran a level of a module that was a 5-7 and put the credit on this guy. So, now I'm 6th level. But since I haven't ever played the levels 5 or 6, I have flexibility on those selections. In just looking at my build's statistics, I am re-considering my feats, talents, and items for 2 effective levels.

As for the ability statistics, I have already played the character at level 4, so I can't even re-distribute my +1 from that level, let alone all the rest [short of doing some retraining of level 4].

For the racial weapons for an elf, I found that issue after HeroLab was applying a penalty. The elf racial ability lets you treat the elven exotic weapons as martial; but as a straight rogue, I was still taking the non-proficiency penalty [since the rogue doesn't have martial weapon proficiency]. So, if I took a level in a full BAB class, I would certainly retrain that feat.


Ferious Thune,

Ferious Thune wrote:


Two-Weapon Defense is likely not worth the feat. First of all, you could just take Dodge.
...
If you're worried about getting UMD high enough [for a wand of shield], there's the Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone. Buy that for 2,000gp ...

Buy the Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2 asap, as that helps all of your worrisome areas. To-hit, AC, and even damage.

I'd probably make at least one of the weapons magic, since you're already 6th level, and not having a magic weapon at that point is not great.

Don't try for a Mithral Breastplate... [good reasons]

I did look at Dodge vs. Two-Weapon Defense. What I really liked about TWD is that it's a shield bonus that works even when flat-footed, and can also boost Total Defense or Fighting Defensively (though with those additional penalties I'd be only about able to hit AC 10 to give a party mate Aid Another). But I think you may be correct overall; I should just take dodge and focus on getting a +4 shield bonus from the spell.

To get the shield spell, I can just keep my UMD allocated with max skill points [I do have the Intelligence on this character to do so] and use a wand myself. I will won't ever get a +19 UMD to make wand use automatic, but +6 at level 6 would serve me well for other low level wands [at least until I toss a 1 that day].

I definitely had the Belt of Dex on my level 6 theoretical build of this character. And that is something I sure plan to keep as I go forward with him.

I do love the mithral breastplate on all my other martial characters, but yes, on a thief, the max dex is incenting me to keep my mithral chain shirt. I had made my existing armor +1 about a year ago, and had just forgotten why. Thanks for the confirmation on that decision.

Scarab Sages

Two-Weapon Defense only works when you’re wielding the weapons. If you don’t have them out and are caught Flat-Footed, it won’t help you.

You have Uncanny Dodge (unless you traded it away), so you won’t be caught flatfooted at all, and Dodge adds to touch AC. Not that there aren’t better feats than Dodge as well, but in your case, Dodge is superior to Two-Weapon Defense.

How are your saves? Take a look at Eboldening Strike for a rogue talent, or Iron Will for a feat.

For a level dip, if you’re just going with one, then Urban Bloodrager as someone suggested is good. It removes the need for umd on the shield wand and gives you a few rounds of rage bonus. If you do go bloodrager, you could swap the level 1 bloodline ability for a familiar. Either a hedgehog for a bonus to will saves or a green sting scorpion or hare for a bonus to initiative.

I think lead blades was mentioned earlier. I don’t think it’s worth it if you’re using the leafblade. It’ll only take them from 1d4 to 1d6, which is an average gain of +1 per weapon. Divine favor would give you +1 to-hit and damage for the same duration, though you’re more likely to need UMD to use that.


I did in fact take Dodge instead of Two-Weapon Defense.
I took Improved Initiative after retraining out of the leafblade martial feat (to try to get more sneak attacks in the initial round of each combat).
For now, I put in a level of Ranger and a level of Wizard (Admixture [Evoker]). For now, I was looking at the advantage of the Ray of Frost possible in 4 different elements to get me a ranged touch attack for short range (complemented by a masterwork composite longbow for longer ranges).
I bought wands of Blend, Heightened Awareness, and Shield to go with the one of CLW that I had previously.
I bought the +1 adamantine elven leafblade, +2 dex belt, +1 ring of protection.

I just read up on Urban Bloodrager, and it does have some appeal, in replacing at least the Wizard level so I maintain my BAB and can increase Dex while in rage. I could still use all 4 of my wands between a level of this class and Ranger, but I don't get real access to invisibility. Fortunately, there's a rogue talent for that: The Whole Time. Quite an interesting mix of options.


As for my Will saves, they look pretty decent for level 6.
Rogue 4 = +1
Wis 12 = +1
Ranger 1 = +0
Wizard 1 = +2
Cloak of Resistance = +1 [for now]
Will Save overall = +5 [for channeling and glitterdust]

Birthmark trait = +2 vs. charms and compulsions
Elf = +2 vs. enchantments

Total = +9 vs. [the most important saves of] charms and compulsions

Scarab Sages

I’m still not sure Ranger is worth it over Bloodrager, but if there’s enough in the spell access that you like, then go for it. I’ll suggest taking a look at the Freebooter archetype. They get Freebooter’s Bane, which is similar to the Slayer’s studied target. It takes a move action to activate, so it isn’t ideal for a TWF, but it’s an extra +1 to-hit/damage when you’re having trouble hitting.

If you’re going to take two dips, then I’ll suggest taking Accomplished Sneak Attacker instead of dodge or improved init. That will keep your sneak attack progression on track as if you had stayed rogue. You can get a familiar from wizard for +4 initiative.

I’m still going to suggest that a single level of Urban Bloodrager is better for this build than the two levels of other classes. You don’t get access to some of the spells you want (heightened awareness, blend, invisibility, the cantrip), but you get boosts to hit/damage through rage, fort saves (equal to the boost from ranger), will saves when raging, you don’t lose a point of bab, you can still get a familiar for init bonus, more hps Bloodrager/urogue compared to ranger/wizard (6+5+1FCB vs 6+4), etc.

You can still pick up something like acid splash with the minor magic rogue talent if you want. It’s a backup strategy anyway. How often are you going to use it? Similarly, a wand of snowball gives you a ranged touch attack relatively cheaply, and I doubt you’d ever use all 50 charges. 750gp or 2 prestige vs not losing a point of BAB seems worth it. And you can still get and use a heightened awareness wand. Max out UMD (you have plenty of skill points available), and that should give you a +8 (6 ranks plus class skill -1 CHA). Not great, but heightened awareness is a 10 minute duration, and not something you’ll be casting in combat. You can afford to spend a few rounds trying to activate it. Buy the cheap cracked ioun stone for +1 to a CHA skill (200gp, I think) and you’re at +9 or basically a 50/50 chance.

Wizard does get you a couple of actual spells/day and a lot of versatility in terms of having a spell book and being able to prep different things. But if you’re having trouble hitting, dipping Wizard isn’t generally what I think of to help that.

If you do take the Wizard level, you might be able to take Brawler as an alternative to Ranger. I need to check Adventurer’s Guide to see if they put the leafblade into the close weapon group. If so, Brawler would give you proficiency. It also gives you Martial Flexibility, which is useful for many reasons. Primarily, though, that lets you take Dedicated Adversary for whatever you’re fighting, effectively working like Slayer’s studied target, but superior to Freebooter’s Bane because it works against all creatures of a type and is +2 instead of +1. Or you could go Snakebite Brawler as someone suggested and your sneak attack would stay on track without having to spend a feat. I’m not sure what spells Ranger is getting you access to that Wizard doesn’t except for CLW and lead blades (see my earlier thoughts on that one).


JoeElf wrote:
For the racial weapons for an elf, I found that issue after HeroLab was applying a penalty. The elf racial ability lets you treat the elven exotic weapons as martial; but as a straight rogue, I was still taking the non-proficiency penalty [since the rogue doesn't have martial weapon proficiency]. So, if I took a level in a full BAB class, I would certainly retrain that feat.

Dip a level of brawler, gain proficiency in Waveblade (specs like Elven Thornblade, but a light weapon, so better than the Leafblade), save a feat, and gain a roving feat. Dip a second level, and flurry with it -- now saving another feat (TWF) and money (you don't need an off-hand weapon, as that's not necessary to flurry).

Grand Lodge

I feel like TWF is a bit of a trap for Rogues...they only get 3/4 BAB to begin with, then stacking TWF penalties on top of that, and the expense of having 2 magic weapons in PFS gets prohibitive very quickly.

Flanking and hitting flat-footed AC can offset the TWF penalty, but you are still dealing with only 3/4 BAB, so you struggle to hit a lot of things, unless you have a team with good buffs.

Sadly, I think you are too far along into this build to turn it into something more optimized...retraining in PFS costs a tone of prestige, which it sounds like you are low on...personally, I would suggest either retiring the character and just move on to something else if you are not enjoying it, or just deal with the fact that you are a pure skill monkey, and don't do much in combat. Maybe invest more into the skills side of the character and rely on that for your usefulness to a party.


Personally, I would have focused way more on to-hit and static bonuses.

I helped the rogue in my group with her build, and right now her attack bonuses are almost as high as the barbarians.

[list]

  • piranha strike is a wash for most 3/4 BaB classes, and a DPR loss for a rogue with flanking. Retrain it.
  • Dual Balanced weapons: expensive on the initial outlay, but reduce the TWF attack penalty to -1/-2
  • Combat Expertise/Dirty Fighting: Combat Expertise if you really need the AC, Dirty Fighting if you want the combat maneuvers/lack the int. Needed for -
  • Gang Up: flanking as long as two other party members threaten your opponent. No more need to get behind people.
  • Get that Belt of Incredible DEX ASAP.
  • Weapon Focus if you have the spare feat. You can never have too many bonuses to hit as a rogue.

  • Scarab Sages

    Gang up isn’t a bad idea. You could get it online right away since you’re retraining a feat anyway. Then seriously look at a Menacing weapon for your off hand. You’d be flanking a lot more often and getting a +4 to-hit instead of +2.

    I can say from experience that it’s possible to get a TWF with sneak attack to a point they are dealing quite a bit of damage. I did it with a ninja, which has a few advantages over core Rogue, but Unchained Rogue is likely better than ninja. The Ki pool/extra attack certainly helps, but URogue starts off in a much better place with free weapon finesse and dex to damage at 3rd. By around 9th level, I could dish out well over 100 points of damage on a full attack. By 11th that was closer to 150. Maybe not quite barbarian levels, but I definitely got some sideways looks when everything landed and I told the GM the final number. (Edit: Those numbers include haste and a Ki attack).


    In case anyone finds this later, I not only selected a level of Urban Bloodrager for my TWF rogue at level 6, I also added a level of it to my level 10 slayer archer when he got to 11th. Getting to rage to add dex and put the shield spell on a wand without worrying about UMD was just what I needed. I put a greensting scorpion in a familiar satchel too, and now I got the initiative bonus that I was seeking. I did retrain a feat into Combat Expertise and another into Gang Up [my reading of Dirty Fighting is that it only works for combat maneuvers, and gang up isn't a maneuver.]

    I haven't actually played the rogue since the rebuild, but I did play the slayer last week, and I really like not having to worry about losing any extra rage hit points if I go unconscious since I am always just using +4 Dex in my rage [and not risking rage death with a tenuous Con bonus]. Since I am at the ACP limit of my attack roll when dex raging i my mithral chain shirt, I didn't bother with the dex belt.

    Lhinir: male elf Unchained Rogue 5, Urban Bloodrager 1
    Nathaniel Greenstone: male human Slayer 10, Urban Bloodrager 1

    At some point, I may purchase a headband of charisma to get the rogue from a 9 charisma to an 11 to improve social skills and get some level 1 castings of some spells, but the slayer has a Cha of 7 and is almost retired from PFS, so for sure I will just be using wands for casting.

    Grand Lodge

    If you haven't yet played it, consider going Dedication Id Rager archetype (which stacks with Urban Bloodrager)

    You DO give up the familiar, unfortunately. But in addition to the normal Urban Bloodrager bonuses, you gain Iron Will while raging and any time you are attacked, regardless whether you are hit or even if you don't take damage, you gain a +2 bonus to hit and your weapons count as a size category larger when you attack that target. That +2 is a nice bonus to hit. Iron Will while raging is a nice defensive buff too.

    Scarab Sages

    JoeElf wrote:
    Since I am at the ACP limit of my attack roll when dex raging i my mithral chain shirt, I didn't bother with the dex belt.

    I don’t understand this sentence. ACP is armor check penalty. That only affects Attack rolls if you aren’t proficient in the armor.

    Do you mean you’re at your Max Dex Bonus for the armor when raging? Max Dex only affects AC. It has no effect on attack rolls, either. You wouldn’t get your full bonus to AC, but you will get it to attack, damage, initiative, skills, reflex, and everything else on your character that Dex applies to.

    Maximum Dexterity Bonus wrote:
    This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to Armor Class that this type of armor allows. Dexterity bonuses in excess of this number are reduced to this number for the purposes of determining the wearer’s Armor Class. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearer’s ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesn’t affect any other Dexterity-related abilities.

    Grand Lodge

    It's got an annoying prerequisite of Step Up, but the the Press to the Wall feat in the Melee Tactics Toolbox is insanely good for rogues (and all sneak attack based martials.)

    Enemies backing themselves against a wall to avoid flanks? This is a great way to teach em a lesson.

    Press to the Wall:
    If you are the only character threatening an opponent, you can treat solid, immovable objects that occupy a square (such as columns, tree trunks, and walls) and are adjacent to that opponent as allies threatening the opponent when determining whether you flank the foe..

    Shadow Lodge

    Two weapon fighting is great on paper, but in practice it is usually terrible for a rogue because flanking is better than that extra hit. Most combats will play out like this: Your first turn you move into position, get one attack. Second turn you full attack, the enemy dies on your first swing though so the second was unnecessary. Third turn, you have to move in to position again and only get one attack. Fourth turn, your target was finished off by another player, so you have to move into position again and get one attack. And so on.

    Grand Lodge

    Lyoto Machida wrote:

    It's got an annoying prerequisite of Step Up, but the the Press to the Wall feat in the Melee Tactics Toolbox is insanely good for rogues (and all sneak attack based martials.)

    Enemies backing themselves against a wall to avoid flanks? This is a great way to teach em a lesson.

    ** spoiler omitted **

    If you go for step up, then grab Step up and Strike as well.

    Following step is go as well to get in the right position for flank og Press to the Wall.


    gnoams wrote:
    Two weapon fighting is great on paper, but in practice it is usually terrible for a rogue because flanking is better than that extra hit.

    Which isn't to say that offering your enemies a greater than 5% AoO chances off your movement to secure flanking sneak-attack dice is ever a good idea if you're currently in a full-attack situation.

    Depending on your weaponry, confirmation bonuses, and numeric damage, TWFing can pile up very good probability numbers relative to a single attack + sneak, especially once Keen or Improved Critical are doubling the range of an 18-20 slicer.

    Shadow Lodge

    Slim Jim wrote:
    gnoams wrote:
    Two weapon fighting is great on paper, but in practice it is usually terrible for a rogue because flanking is better than that extra hit.

    Which isn't to say that offering your enemies a greater than 5% AoO chances off your movement to secure flanking sneak-attack dice is ever a good idea if you're currently in a full-attack situation.

    Depending on your weaponry, confirmation bonuses, and numeric damage, TWFing can pile up very good probability numbers relative to a single attack + sneak, especially once Keen or Improved Critical are doubling the range of an 18-20 slicer.

    Which is why twf isn't so bad for a fighter or ranger or really any melee class besides rogue. They can stand there, let the enemy come up and hit them, then full attack back, they have better ac and hp to take it, better bab and class features to attack so they don't need to rely on flanking bonuses to hit or deal damage.

    Grand Lodge

    The OP is clearly set on making TWF on a rogue as the main class, so it's not very on-topic to say " it's better on another class "


    gnoams wrote:
    Slim Jim wrote:
    gnoams wrote:
    Two weapon fighting is great on paper, but in practice it is usually terrible for a rogue because flanking is better than that extra hit.

    Which isn't to say that offering your enemies a greater than 5% AoO chances off your movement to secure flanking sneak-attack dice is ever a good idea if you're currently in a full-attack situation.

    Depending on your weaponry, confirmation bonuses, and numeric damage, TWFing can pile up very good probability numbers relative to a single attack + sneak, especially once Keen or Improved Critical are doubling the range of an 18-20 slicer.

    Which is why twf isn't so bad for a fighter or ranger or really any melee class besides rogue. They can stand there, let the enemy come up and hit them, then full attack back, they have better ac and hp to take it, better bab and class features to attack so they don't need to rely on flanking bonuses to hit or deal damage.

    Rogue AC is not that bad. If built the way I was describing, use combat expertise while standing next to the fighter and ranger waiting for opponents to move up. You’ll have better AC than the ranger and likely just as much as the fighter. Part of the advantage of being a DEX build.

    On your turn, the opponents are standing next to you, the fighter, and the ranger (or within a 5’ step). With Gang Up, you have flanking. Enjoy your full attack, with sneak

    Grand Lodge

    If you dip 2 levels snakestrike Brawler you gain bab, hitpoints, a feat, improved unarmed strike and TWF with just a single weapon and you keep the sneak attack progression.
    A waveblade would work well withthis build.


    I recently reread the warlock, and a 5 lv dip gives you: wizard spells which gives great utility, and touch attacks that work with TWF and Sneak Attacks. The only problem is the poor crit range, which cannot be enhanced with keen.

    Anyways the point is that you can start getting sneak attack from 30ft range, and if you do manage to flank (however that is) you can sneak attack with lots of touch attacks; and redirect if the guy happens to die on the first hit as was mentioned earlier.

    This could make for a really good Arcane Trickster type build in my opinion.

    ***********************
    Now for some better suited advice for the original question a 1-2 lv dip into Spear Fighter would give you at lv 1: Proficiency in martial weapons, so you can retrain the feat, Dodge as a bonus feat, and another bonus feat. So you end up with an effective +3 feat gain. lv2 gives: +1 acrobatics to avoid AoO (good for getting into flanking) and another bonus feat.

    Another option is Warpriest or Kensai (worse option as you lose a lot when TWF), this gives you: Proficiency, Weapon Focus as a bonus feat, divine spells, and a few uses of 2 blessing.

    The point overall, is to gain feat space for things that could be more useful for you, and its easier if you check yourself as you know your needs better. having said that do give your weapons at least +1, it makes it so much easier to hit when they are enchanted. and using Piranha Strike less also works wonders.

    * PS I would think very carefully before spending resources getting a thornblade, the reason being that resources quickly plummet the more weapons you focus on. Rogues dont have many ways to spread out the feat and enchantment bonuses to multiple weapons.


    Temperans wrote:
    The only problem is the poor crit range, which cannot be enhanced with keen.

    Why is low crit range on a class that not only doesn't profit from crits beyond the usual damage increase (for which crit range is mathematically not that good), but also has a lot of bonus damage that can't crit, a problem?


    It's a problem because every single time TWF is mentioned someone will suggest to go kukri, waveblade, or some other good crit range weapon. So mentioning that it's a problem because of bad crit range is a reflexive acknowledgement vs people that would criticize it based on that point.


    Derklord wrote:
    Temperans wrote:
    The only problem is the poor crit range, which cannot be enhanced with keen.
    Why is low crit range on a class that not only doesn't profit from crits beyond the usual damage increase (for which crit range is mathematically not that good), but also has a lot of bonus damage that can't crit, a problem?

    A good rogue build is going to have decent static damage modifiers that do get multiplied on a critical.


    gnoams wrote:
    Slim Jim wrote:
    Depending on your weaponry, confirmation bonuses, and numeric damage, TWFing can pile up very good probability numbers relative to a single attack + sneak, especially once Keen or Improved Critical are doubling the range of an 18-20 slicer.
    Which is why twf isn't so bad for a fighter or ranger or really any melee class besides rogue.
    If you're dex-pushing small race (i.e., the type most synergistic with rogue), your ability score's bonus to damage will be quite respectable.
    Quote:
    They can stand there, let the enemy come up and hit them, then full attack back, they have better ac and hp to take it, better bab and class features to attack so they don't need to rely on flanking bonuses to hit or deal damage.

    Rangers typically have worse AC than rogues, often a lot less, and their attack-bonus is generally not better when facing non-FEs (especially when said ranger is MAD point-buying physical stats, while a rogue pretty much only cares about Dex, and can even shirk Con with a fighting defensively + Uncanny Dodge mechanic).


    Volkard Abendroth wrote:
    A good rogue build is going to have decent static damage modifiers that do get multiplied on a critical.

    First, the build in question already has 5 levels in a different class, and uses a form of attack that is pretty hard to get bonuses on, and second, "decent static damage modifiers" isn't enough to make crits good.

    You actually need a notable amount of critable damage bonuses beyond just weapon enchantment and dex before a kukri is better than a swortsword. Seriously, it's pure math, you need over 20 critable damage per attack before 5% increased crit range can be better than +1 average damage.

    Ignoring stuff like Swashbuckler, where the crit does more than just damage, of course.

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