weapon shift feat question


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

in the wilderness origins there the feat weapon shift and i have a few question about it

when it state :
Your natural attacks also gain all of the weapon’s properties (such as disarm), other than the double weapon property and the fragile weapon property; moreover, when using this feat to grant the trip property to your natural attacks, you gain a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to trip an enemy, but you cannot drop your weapon to avoid being tripped due to a failed trip attempt. Weapon Shift does not apply a magic weapon’s enhancement bonus to your natural attacks, nor does it grant your natural attacks any of a weapon’s magical special abilities.

does it incluse the crit range for exemple a weapon 18-20 would the natural attack also turn 18-20 crit range and let say adamantite weapon would it give the natural weapon the adamantine property in order to bypass dr?


Weapon Shift wrote:

Your melee weapons meld into your animal form.

Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature.

Benefit: When you use your wild shape ability, any melee weapons you are wielding and proficient with meld into your new form. Select one of these weapons; while in your new form, your natural attacks deal the same damage type as that weapon. Your natural attacks also gain all of the weapon’s properties (such as disarm), other than the double weapon property and the fragile weapon property; moreover, when using this feat to grant the trip property to your natural attacks, you gain a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to trip an enemy, but you cannot drop your weapon to avoid being tripped due to a failed trip attempt. Weapon Shift does not apply a magic weapon’s enhancement bonus to your natural attacks, nor does it grant your natural attacks any of a weapon’s magical special abilities.

=====

"Properties" is referring to the special weapon features mentioned at the "special" column at the weapon tables.
These are:

Blocking, Brace, Deadly, Disarm, Distracting, Double, Fragile, Grapple, Monk, Nonlethal, Performance, Reach, Strength, Sunder and Trip.

It would not increase the critical threat range, or apply any effects of special materials.


fine but then why not just write the weapon also gain the weapon special property instead of weapon properties. the term properties tto my knowledge had never been written for something specific and even the exemple such as is not limiting to a kind a properties but only 1 of them

but i dont disagree that it only apply for the special keyword but just disapoint by the wording on the feat


Go Necromancy Go!

I have a bunch of questions about how Weapon Shift works. My search-fu did not reveal answers, so I figured that I would animate this thread and ask for others opinions on how this works...

OK, assume a Sandy the Shifter (human) activates her wildshape. She was wearing a cestus (B/P, Monk) and had a Naginata in hands (S, Reach).

OK.
1) Do you get both weapons? The text is "any melee weapons you are wielding", definitely a plural. The definition of wielding is unclear, but I have seen the suggestion you are wielding a weapon if you are in a position to take an AoO with it if you choose (and of course, you have the actual opportunity).
2) Assuming yes, can you select from all 3 damage types (B/P/S), or would you make the player pick between S and B/P when they shifted?

What does Reach imply with shifted weapon? Weapon reach normally is a donut; in the middle you can't attack (with that weapon), whereas natural weapon reach makes a circle...

What if the Naginata if a Kusari Gama (S/P, Monk, Double, Reach, Trip, Grapple )? Take into account the Kusari Gama's wielder's ability to change if reach applies or not. Similarly, a Meteor Hammer (with it's text ability to switch modes..."You may use this weapon in two different ways: Meteor: In meteor mode you use it as a double weapon. Fortress: In fortress mode you cannot use it as a double weapon but gain reach and a +1 shield bonus to AC.
Switching between these two modes is a free action decided at the start of your turn.") can give variable reach. What does that imply for the shifter? (Also, can Sandy get the shield bonus from the meteor hammer ?)

What if the Naginata is a Whip? Take into account the Whips 15' reach, ability to attack within that reach (not just the outer circle like normal weapon reach), how attacking with the whip triggers AoO's effects like ranged weapon, and doesn't do damage to armored critters. What happens to your reach? What effect does this have on your ability to take AoOs?

How about if you replace the cestus with a tekko kagi: "A tekko-kagi can be used an offensive weapon, defensively like a buckler, or to disarm an opponent’s weapon without provoking an attack of opportunity. It provides its owner with a +2 circumstance bonus on attempts to disarm or sunder swords or other slender-bladed weapons." Can you get that odd ability to disarm without provoking an AoO? How about the "defensively like a buckler" ability( a similar question can be asked about Madus and Klars) -do you get a shield bonus?


Weapon Shift wrote:

Your melee weapons meld into your animal form.

Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature.

Benefit: When you use your wild shape ability, any melee weapons you are wielding and proficient with meld into your new form. Select one of these weapons; while in your new form, your natural attacks deal the same damage type as that weapon. Your natural attacks also gain all of the weapon’s properties (such as disarm), other than the double weapon property and the fragile weapon property; moreover, when using this feat to grant the trip property to your natural attacks, you gain a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to trip an enemy, but you cannot drop your weapon to avoid being tripped due to a failed trip attempt. Weapon Shift does not apply a magic weapon’s enhancement bonus to your natural attacks, nor does it grant your natural attacks any of a weapon’s magical special abilities.

The ability of a whip to attack everything within its reach is not a weapon property, and thus not gained. Likewise, any other abilities of a weapon that are not a weapon property (eg, reach, disarm, trip, etc) are not gained.


pad300 wrote:
1) Do you get both weapons? The text is "any melee weapons you are wielding", definitely a plural.

This question is answered by literally the next sentence: "Select one of these weapons; (...)".

pad300 wrote:
What does Reach imply with shifted weapon? Weapon reach normally is a donut; in the middle you can't attack (with that weapon), whereas natural weapon reach makes a circle...

Your natural attacks have the reach property, with all the usual rules. Note that what you call "natural weapon reach" is infect the default, natural reach - a large human(oid) uses the same rules with a manufactured weapon, for instance.

pad300 wrote:
What if the Naginata if a Kusari Gama (S/P, Monk, Double, Reach, Trip, Grapple )? Take into account the Kusari Gama's wielder's ability to change if reach applies or not.

This is not 100% clear, but the only interpretation that makes sense is that what the feat calls "weapon’s properties" refers to the weapon qualities listed in the "special" section of the weapon table, i.e. Blocking, Brace, Deadly, Disarm, Distracting, Grapple, Monk, Nonlethal, Performance, Reach, Strength, Sunder and Trip (CRB pg. 144f and UE pg. 22). Under that asumption, you only get those properties, nothing else, i.e. the answer to the entire rest of your post is "no".


Might as well keep using this thread.

So my first thought when I saw Weapon Shift was to use it with the Battle Poi to become a bootleg fire elemental with pounce, but what other shenanigans are possible?

Flame Blade with the Elemental Metamagic could be used for getting Cold/Acid/Lightning damage, but is mostly an option for just the druid. It also presents a problem not dealt with in the feat description.

What happens if the weapon you used with Weapon Shift has a duration that ends during the Wild Shape?


Wonderstell wrote:

Might as well keep using this thread.

So my first thought when I saw Weapon Shift was to use it with the Battle Poi to become a bootleg fire elemental with pounce, but what other shenanigans are possible?

Flame Blade with the Elemental Metamagic could be used for getting Cold/Acid/Lightning damage, but is mostly an option for just the druid. It also presents a problem not dealt with in the feat description.

What happens if the weapon you used with Weapon Shift has a duration that ends during the Wild Shape?

My first instinct says the effects of the feat for that selected weapon end, but there doesn't seem to be any RAW to back that up. Per the wording of the feat, you would keep using the statistics of that weapon for the effects of weapon shift, until you leave your current wild shape.

As a houserule, I'd make you revert to your normal attacks though.


Derklord wrote:


pad300 wrote:
What does Reach imply with shifted weapon? Weapon reach normally is a donut; in the middle you can't attack (with that weapon), whereas natural weapon reach makes a circle...

Your natural attacks have the reach property, with all the usual rules. Note that what you call "natural weapon reach" is infect the default, natural reach - a large human(oid) uses the same rules with a manufactured weapon, for instance.

Not sure I understand the reach rules at this point. A medium humanoid with a reach weapon (eg. a Bill), threatens an area Like so:

TTTTT
TSSST
TSXST
TSSST
TTTTT

where T is a threatened 5' square, S is a not threatened square, and X is the occupied square.

You appear to be saying a medium "humanoid" with reach 10' (a faceless stalker say) with a longsword threatens the same area (above diagram)? Or is his threatened area (what I currently understand):

TTTTT
TTTTT
TTXTT
TTTTT
TTTTT

Further, if the aforementioned faceless stalker had bill rather than a longsword, I currently understand his threatened area to be:

TTTTTTT
TTTTTTT
TTSSSTT
TTSXSTT
TTSSSTT
TTTTTTT
TTTTTTT

Whereas, if the stalker had the sword, but had also been subject to a Longarm spell,

TTTTTTT
TTTTTTT
TTTTTTT
TTTXTTT
TTTTTTT
TTTTTTT
TTTTTTT

Am I misunderstanding the reach rules?


I'm not 100% sure of what you're saying, so here's the short version of how it works:

When not using a weapon with the reach property, you can attack every square in your reach except those you occupy. Increased size, the Longarm spell, the Lunge feat, or increased reach from a weird natural attack all fall under this category.

When using a weapon with the reach property (or a Weapon Shift affected natural attack), you have the "doughnut", i.e. you can not attack the innermost 5' for small, medium, and large (Long) creatures, 10' for large (tall) or huge (long) creatures, 15' for huge (tall) and gargantuan (long) creatures, and so on. Everything else gets added afterwards according to this FAQ.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
pad300 wrote:
Derklord wrote:


pad300 wrote:
What does Reach imply with shifted weapon? Weapon reach normally is a donut; in the middle you can't attack (with that weapon), whereas natural weapon reach makes a circle...

Your natural attacks have the reach property, with all the usual rules. Note that what you call "natural weapon reach" is infect the default, natural reach - a large human(oid) uses the same rules with a manufactured weapon, for instance.

Not sure I understand the reach rules at this point. A medium humanoid with a reach weapon (eg. a Bill), threatens an area Like so:

TTTTT
TSSST
TSXST
TSSST
TTTTT

where T is a threatened 5' square, S is a not threatened square, and X is the occupied square.

You appear to be saying a medium "humanoid" with reach 10' (a faceless stalker say) with a longsword threatens the same area (above diagram)? Or is his threatened area (what I currently understand):

TTTTT
TTTTT
TTXTT
TTTTT
TTTTT

Further, if the aforementioned faceless stalker had bill rather than a longsword, I currently understand his threatened area to be:

TTTTTTT
TTTTTTT
TTSSSTT
TTSXSTT
TTSSSTT
TTTTTTT
TTTTTTT

Whereas, if the stalker had the sword, but had also been subject to a Longarm spell,

TTTTTTT
TTTTTTT
TTTTTTT
TTTXTTT
TTTTTTT
TTTTTTT
TTTTTTT

Am I misunderstanding the reach rules?

Looks about right. Not sure about the corners on everything tho


The corners are correctly shown as threatened per the CRB FAQ.

https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sp8
"10-Foot Reach and Diagonals: I’m confused about reach and diagonals. I heard somewhere online that you don’t threaten the second diagonal with a 10-foot reach but that you somehow get an attack of opportunity when opponents move out of that square, but the Rules Reference Cards show that you do threaten the second diagonal. Which one is correct?
The cards are correct. As an exception to the way that diagonals normally work, a creature with 10 feet of reach threatens the second diagonal. These changes will be reflected in the next errata."

Note that this FAQ was a December 2014 post.

But my CRB PDF just downloaded from the Paizo site says this on pages 192-193:
Measuring Distance
"Diagonals: When measuring distance, the first diagonal counts as 1 square, the second counts as 2 squares, the third counts as 1, the fourth as 2, and so on."

And this on pages 214 about the area of a spell effect:
"You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance."


The latest printing (i.e. the last time they applied errata) is from 2013. They don't adjust PDFs between printings.

Note that the FAQ only talks about 10 foot reach, so for anything beyond, use the usual rules. That means for the last two diagrams, you'd need to cut the corners.


Derklord wrote:
When not using a weapon with the reach property, you can attack every square in your reach except those you occupy.

Where is the rule preventing you from attacking within a square you occupy?


Ah, I think I misremembered something. Re-reading, you do indeed both can attack and threaten squares you occupy (when not using a reach weapon). My bad!


Derklord wrote:
Ah, I think I misremembered something. Re-reading, you do indeed both can attack and threaten squares you occupy (when not using a reach weapon). My bad!

pfft! there goes my new tactic for fighting gargantuan foes...

:)

Silver Crusade

So if you had a silver/mithral etc. weapon would your attacks count as that?


habibo wrote:
So if you had a silver/mithral etc. weapon would your attacks count as that?

As written, No.

I'd let them count as a houserule though.

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