Masterwork Tools for all skills


Rules Questions

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The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Bob Jonquet wrote:
As a general rule, like bonuses don't stack. So wearing fancy clothes AND jewelry AND cologne is still only going to net you a +2 to Diplomacy. My 2cp

Agreed, as a general rule. Circumstance bonuses ( like dodge bonuses to AC) are a special exemption.

Quote:
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.

The Exchange

Chris Mortika wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
As a general rule, like bonuses don't stack. So wearing fancy clothes AND jewelry AND cologne is still only going to net you a +2 to Diplomacy. My 2cp

Agreed, as a general rule. Circumstance bonuses ( like dodge bonuses to AC) are a special exemption.

Quote:
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.

so, can a player get two Masterwork Tools for the same skill - and get a +4?

Grand Lodge

Nosig

No - luckily there is a paragraph for stacking in the CRB.

From CRB wrote:


Tool, Masterwork: This well made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack.

Emphasis mine.

But you could argue that Perfume would stack with a non-descript Masterwork tool as I can't see perfume to fall into the definitions of a tool as discussed so far.
You don't use it activly. Once applied it acts for a whole day without any action involved. It also doesn't generally work - so if you have perfume and a MW diplomacy tool the combination should work differently on a male human (assuming a female human character) as on talking to an ork. See the stacking of Healing Kit with surgeons tools. Some people here are of different opinion.

I feel it shouldn't be the way as well - but for different reasons as I dislike anything non-descript. How can I adjucate a circumstance bonus (apart of always granting it) without knowing a description, limitations, etc.

The Exchange

Thod wrote:

Nosig

No - luckily there is a paragraph for stacking in the CRB.

From CRB wrote:


Tool, Masterwork: This well made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack.

Emphasis mine.

But you could argue that Perfume would stack with a non-descript Masterwork tool as I can't see perfume to fall into the definitions of a tool as discussed so far.
You don't use it activly. Once applied it acts for a whole day without any action involved. It also doesn't generally work - so if you have perfume and a MW diplomacy tool the combination should work differently on a male human (assuming a female human character) as on talking to an ork. See the stacking of Healing Kit with surgeons tools. Some people here are of different opinion.

I feel it shouldn't be the way as well - but for different reasons as I dislike anything non-descript. How can I adjucate a circumstance bonus (apart of always granting it) without knowing a description, limitations, etc.

I really don't see players even mentioning that 2 of their result is from a Circumstance bonus. I have a Dwarf (+2 to perception for stone - Stonecunning), and I know that many Judges get real tired of me saying "I've got a 24, or 25 if it involves stone".

So, I would bet that what is happening is that the Circumstance bonus is always granted, 'cause it never comes up. It's just added into the skill. I know I have this problem with Healers kits - I tend to add them to my Healers and just include them in the skill. But they only have 10 uses before they have to be renewed. This is something I have to figure a way to track properly. (Right now, this is one of the reasons I'm looking at the Masterwork Tools. One for the skill Heal would never have to be renewed.)

Grand Lodge

nosig wrote:
So, I would bet that what is happening is that the Circumstance bonus is always granted

We'll to be fair, it is not being "granted" but "claimed." As a GM, I have no issue with a player saying what you stated everytime they role. IMO, it is the "correct" way to describe the situation.

Also, I have seen someone put a climber's kit, healer's kit, or some other kit that is circumstantial in its application and must be "equiped" to use, but just add the bonus and apply it for all checks. Unfortunately, that leads to players forgetting that the bonus was applied and creates a situation where, technically, the player is cheating, however unintentional.

IMO, using a masterwork tool is no different than using a weapon or applying any other type of bonus. It should always be announced with the role.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I think some of the problem is with the fact that character sheets don't really have room to put separate "with kit/ without kit" columns and often character creation software wraps those numbers into the base skill check.

Conditional bonuses are often forgotten one way or the other, either always used or never used. Which bugs me.

Grand Lodge

Fortunately, HeroLab (the official character builder for PFS btw), has a toggle button for applying the tool to your skill check. Of course, that does not help is you print the CS out, but at least you can turn it off, for the general case, and still have it show on the equipment list.

IMO, the key is to hand-write the kit/bonus next to the skill in the table so you will be reminded when making those checks. I cannot remember my kits either, but making the notation vastly improved my chances of using it when applicable. YMMV

The Exchange

Dennis Baker wrote:

I think some of the problem is with the fact that character sheets don't really have room to put separate "with kit/ without kit" columns and often character creation software wraps those numbers into the base skill check.

Conditional bonuses are often forgotten one way or the other, either always used or never used. Which bugs me.

Honestly if a player can't figure out a way to notate this on his character sheet despite there not being a spot for it then I wouldn't know what to say...

I have this for a couple of my characters.

My oracle for example carries a healer's kit as well as surgeon's tools to help with her heal skill.. here is the break down:

Heal: 11 = Wis 1, Rank 2, misc mod 8, in the margin +3 tools +2 kit

the total includes the bonuses, but I also know what I need to deduct should I not be able to use one of my bonus items.

Just because there isn't a spot doesn't mean that you can't write in the information

Grand Lodge

Thea Peters wrote:


I have this for a couple of my characters.

My oracle for example carries a healer's kit as well as surgeon's tools to help with her heal skill.. here is the break down:

Heal: 11 = Wis 1, Rank 2, misc mod 8, in the margin +3 tools +2 kit

Thea

Sorry - I'm slow here. I just don't understand the misc mod 8.

You get +3 from class skill
You get +5 (+3 class, +2 Healers kit) when you use the Healers kit
You get +6 (+3 class, +3 Surgeons tools in conjunction with Healers kit)

Do I miss a +2? Or do you have MW surgeons tools? Would this even stack - I assumed (maybe wrong) the Healer kit is already the equivalent of a MW toolkit and therefore no other such kit could/should exist / should give you an extra +2.

Silver Crusade

Michael Brock wrote:


Would you carry 26 tools, or masterwork tools for just the skills you are currently trained in, even skills that can't be used untrained?

In character, my skills can very possibly mean the difference between life and death. Why would I conceivably NOT buy as many masterwork tools as I could afford and carry?

I've got lots of characters currently who have spent a great deal of money buying down armour encumbrance values. If I'm willing to pay to eliminate a negative modifier why the heck wouldn't I pay to add a positive modifier?

I can most certainly see my bard character having well over a dozen masterwork tools. He is certainly trained in far more than 12 skills.

The Exchange

Here are a few questions to think on about the Master Work Tool (MWT) and how it's to be used. I realize that every Judge will do these differently - though I am not sure that most Judges will ever know if a MWT is being used (see #4 below). YMMV.

1) Can a PC buy a MWT (MasterWork Tool) for a skill that already has a kit for it?

2a) If so, does the bonus it (the MWT) give replace or stack with other bonus (from the kit)?
2b) In other words, if a PC has a Climbers kit, and a MWT (Climb), does he/she get a +2 or a +4 total bonus?

3) Does the MWT give the +2 bonus in all circumstances?

4) Does the Player need to mention to the judge that his PC is using the MWT when the Judge calls for a roll in that skill?

5) How are MWTs used? (Does it take an open hand to use one, even for something like Perform Dance?)

6) Can a PC use a MWT in a Day Job roll?

Grand Lodge

nosig wrote:
1) Can a PC buy a MWT (MasterWork Tool) for a skill that already has a kit for it?

I would rule no. If you use the concept of general vs. specific rules as a basis, you can buy generic masterwork tools unless their is a specific one in the rules. It's kind of like the katana discussion. Before it officially existed, we just allowed a "reskin" of the bastard sword. Once the official katana was released, the generic version was no longer available.

nosig wrote:
2a) If so, does the bonus it (the MWT) give replace or stack with other bonus (from the kit)?

I think opening up stackable circumstance bonuses will be a slippery slope. Unless there is a specific rule allowing it, I will not be allowing it at my table.

nosig wrote:
2b) In other words, if a PC has a Climbers kit, and a MWT (Climb), does he/she get a +2 or a +4 total bonus?

+2

nosig wrote:
3) Does the MWT give the +2 bonus in all circumstances?

This is how I rule it provided you can equip the tool and use it to assist your attempt. The only exception would be for specific tools that have a description of how/when it will help the check.

nosig wrote:
4) Does the Player need to mention to the judge that his PC is using the MWT when the Judge calls for a roll in that skill?

Yes, so the GM can determine if the application of a tool is appropriate for the attempt. It should also help to self-regulate the errors that occur by having the tool auto-added to the modifier.

nosig wrote:
5) How are MWTs used? (Does it take an open hand to use one, even for something like Perform Dance?)

I suppose this would be tool-specific, but in most cases, I would expect the tool to have to be equiped to use. But there are a number of defined tools that are some what passive in their application (perfume/cologne).

nosig wrote:
6) Can a PC use a MWT in a Day Job roll?
"GtPFSOP, p17 wrote:
"Permanent bonuses such as equipment, feats, racial bonuses, and traits effect your Day Job check as they would any check of the rolled skill..."

Some would argue that tools are not permanent bonuses, but since "equipment" is specifically called out in the text, they should apply to Day Job checks.

Much of this would fall under table variation, so caveat emptor. Personally, I don't have an issue with a player having a lot of masterwork tools as long as the weight/volume can be accommodated. It could easily get ridiculous like the warrior carrying dozens of large weapons. The encumbrance may be okay, but the volume (which is more of a GM adjudication) can be problematic.

Sovereign Court

I'm sure I wasn't asked specifically, but here's my answers regardless.

Quote:


1) Can a PC buy a MWT (MasterWork Tool) for a skill that already has a kit for it?

I'd allow it, but see below:

Quote:


2a) If so, does the bonus it (the MWT) give replace or stack with other bonus (from the kit)?
2b) In other words, if a PC has a Climbers kit, and a MWT (Climb), does he/she get a +2 or a +4 total bonus?

kits and tools both provide circumstantial bonuses, and circumstancial bonuses stack so long as they are from seperate circumstances. Kit and tool are close enough imo that you couldn't stack them.

Quote:


3) Does the MWT give the +2 bonus in all circumstances?

RAW it does, and with Michael Brock's opinion we have the PFS RAI that it only applies to actively used skills, rather than passively used ones. I'd furthermore add my own RAI that the tool is applicible to all actively used skills only when a kit is not available for that skill. In the case of a tool where a kit IS available, I'd only allow it for use in one or two situations so as to preserve the integrity of the more expensive/heavier kits.

Example: Climbing kit is good for 100% of the time you want to roll to climb something. If you only have a mwk ice pick (climbing tool), it's only good for the +2 bonus when climbing an ice wall/glacier.

Quote:


4) Does the Player need to mention to the judge that his PC is using the MWT when the Judge calls for a roll in that skill?

Only if the GM insists on knowing each and every mod for every skill check, imo. Why harp on tools when you don't harp on magic items/feats/traits/etc that might also give bonuses to skill checks?

of course, it's only proper courtesy for a player to say if he intends to use a tool in place of a proper kit so that a GM could decide if that is appropriate. PFS considerations to the rules go both ways, and pulling a fast one on a GM is still not kosher behavior in OP.

Quote:


5) How are MWTs used? (Does it take an open hand to use one, even for something like Perform Dance?)

At my table I say it does.

Quote:


6) Can a PC use a MWT in a Day Job roll?

I don't see any reason it shouldn't be allowed.

The Exchange

To Bob:

for Bob, others make a perception check:
I like your ideas, but I see some possible issues.

#1 While I agree with you on the most part for this, I think some problems might arise from getting it to work. What about Kits that are in sources other than the core? say in the Adventurers Armory? would a player be able to buy and use a less restrictive, generic MWT because he does not own the resently released Kit? The Bastard sword reskin example does not apply here - cause it would go back to being a B.Sword, the MWT would go back to being... what? we would need access to a list of what kits are available, so that we would know what skills can get MWT and what ones can't.

#2 while I agree that stackable circumstance bonuses are a potential problem, I think #4 would fix it. If the DM says your PCs MWT Dancing shoes and the MWT Silk Entertainers outfit both apply to his perform (Dance) roll this time (though maybe not next time) - then your PC should get a +4 circumstance bonus.

#3 I think this would be handled in the fact that circumstance bonuses are circumstanial - they only apply when the Judge says so. So if I say, "my PC uses her MWT Dancing Slippers to improve her Perform Dance roll" and the judge says - "that wouldn't effect this dance, as it is an underwater balet". Which again puts us back to #4 below. I think your exception here would deal with kits and would not apply to MWT.

#4 I agree with you here. I would also add that the best judge of if a circumstance bonus applies should be the Judge. All circumstance bonuses should be applied by the judge.

#5 I agree, realizing that the definition of "equiped" can sometimes be an opinion. again I think #4 would fix this and "the best judge of that should be the Judge". "does the dog come to me when I call him?" "roll handle animal" "can I get a MWT bonus for the bacon I rubbed on my hands an hour ago?"

#6 I'm not sure on this, I can see no reason not to, but depending on circumstances... - so I would default to #4. Ask the judge when you roll.

Grand Lodge

Nosig

I had written a full page as answer - but got disrupted. Then I had an idea and looked into my old D&D 3.0 Player Handbook (I never owned the 3.5 version). It doesn't happen very often (actually hardly ever) that I prefer old D&D descriptions. But I feel it helps to know the origin and follow from there to the changes done to in the Pathfinder rules to understand differences. To me it made clear why we have the issues we have right now.

D&D Player Handbook 3.0 wrote:


Tool, Masterwork: This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job and adds a +2 circumstance bonus to a related skill check (if any). Some examples of this sort of item are on Table 7-7: Goods and Services, such as masterwork thieves tools, disguise kit, climbers kit, healer's kit and masterwork musical instrument. This entry covers about anything else. Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used towards the same skill skill check do not stack, so masterwork pitons and a masterwork climber's kit do not provide a +4 bonus if used together on a Climb check.

Now the Pathfinder version

Pathfinder CRB wrote:


Tool, Masterwork: This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack.

The Pathfinder version is just a shortened version without explicit examples. It also is quite interesting to look at the description of the Climbers kit and how it changed.

D&D Player Handbook 3.0 wrote:


Climbers Kit: Special pitons, boot tips, gloves and a harness that aids in all sorts of climbing. This is the perfect tool for climbing and gives you a +2 circumstance bonus to Climb checks.
Pathfinder CRB wrote:


These crampons, pitons, ropes, and tools give you a +2 circumstance bonus on Climb checks.

Apart of different wording (mainly left out stuff) there is one more crucial difference. In D&D 3.0 MW tools was a special property and the 50 gp was added on to existing tools. In Pathfinder it got a weight (1 lb) and no longer is a quality but an item on it's own.

The first bit that might have been obvious to most gamers but was really important to me - Healer's kit, Climbers kit and Disguise kit are actually mentioned as examples of masterwork tools. Also in the description they still have the wording 'these are the perfect tools for the job'. In Pathfinder these three tools don't mention they are MW tools but I hope people understand it is important that these tools actually are masterwork items. This is of importance for stacking.

This hopefully answers questions 2a and 2b.

Pathfinder rules still say:
Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack. So as long as a Climbers kit is a masterwork tool (nobody so far did say it isn't and please don't start this now - I nearly did ...)

I prefer the longer version: Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used towards the same skill skill check do not stack. But I hope this lays question 2a and 2b to rest as well as related questions towards stacking.

This leads us back to question 1:
In D&D you could upgrade a rope (be it hemp, be it silk) to a MW rope by paying an extra 50 gp. So it would give you a +2 for any check involved using the rope (climb is used for climbing, use rope if used for Use Rope). MW tools was a template granting a +2 for a check done with that item. And you couldn't get a +4 for using two MW items.

In Pathfinder the MW tools have become items. The advantage is - it is simpler. The disadvantge (from my point of view) is that there is no real world equivalent and it therefore has no descriptions and restricticons that follow from the item.

This now allows you to either buy an unspecified item granting a +2 bonus or an existing item. I doubt it is intended that you make your own unspecified item if another one already exists. But this is not strictly in the rules but rather a gentleman agreement.

The difference between template and item also yields the answer for 3. As there isn't a description or a form that the item has - there can't be any restriction. It therefore gives the bonus in all circumstances for the untyped, non descriptive MW tool.

4) It is curtesy to mention the usage to a judge.

5) It has no description - but as it has a weight (1 lb) you can assume you it is possible to handle it using a single hand. Mounting it on other items, clothes etc. is undefined.

6) see other replies - yes. This already works with Artisan tools and MW Musical instruments and should work for any other MW tool.

To me it was interesting to look back. I hope I'm not getting flamed here for citing D&D rules. But I think the passages removed from the D&D 3.0 rules lead to some of the confusion. Questions 2a and 2b would be absolutely clear otherwise.

The remaining confusion stems from the issue that at least as written it seems that MW tools changed from a template to an item in it's own right.
As such it gives the player the option to make up any MW tool he likes instead of applying a template to existing tools that can be used beneficially for a skill check.
To me it would be interesting to know what the reasoning behind this was. It might explain to me what the RAI with the masterwork tools is ment to be and how to judge them.
There is the slim possibility it never was ment to be an item in it's own right. The remaining '(if any)' might still mean that all Pathfinder tried to do was to shorten unnecessary wordage when the CRB was produced and it still is supposed to be a template.

But this isn't up to me to know or decide.

Grand Lodge

Answer to Bob:

Bob Jonquet wrote:
nosig wrote:
1) Can a PC buy a MWT (MasterWork Tool) for a skill that already has a kit for it?

I would rule no. If you use the concept of general vs. specific rules as a basis, you can buy generic masterwork tools unless their is a specific one in the rules. It's kind of like the katana discussion. Before it officially existed, we just allowed a "reskin" of the bastard sword. Once the official katana was released, the generic version was no longer available.

The issue is - if it is a template, then multiple MW tools can exist side by side. A MW rope that has a +8 to climb up instead of the +10, a MW ladder that grants a +2 on the climb check to get up, etc. In each case you add MW as template and the item itself dictates the total price as well as the restrictions.

The problem is that the current wording made MW tools to an item in it's own right.

Bob Jonquet wrote:
nosig wrote:
2a) If so, does the bonus it (the MWT) give replace or stack with other bonus (from the kit)?

I think opening up stackable circumstance bonuses will be a slippery slope. Unless there is a specific rule allowing it, I will not be allowing it at my table.

nosig wrote:
2b) In other words, if a PC has a Climbers kit, and a MWT (Climb), does he/she get a +2 or a +4 total bonus?

+2

It clearly says that 2 MW tools are not stackable. So +2.

Bob Jonquet wrote:
nosig wrote:
3) Does the MWT give the +2 bonus in all circumstances?

This is how I rule it provided you can equip the tool and use it to assist your attempt. The only exception would be for specific tools that have a description of how/when it will help the check.

Again - the problem arises that it changed from template to tool. A template has a description with limitations (or at least a GM could judge what these are). So your best option is to never add a description which really goes against the grain of immersion and versimilitude and follows the road of the munchkin. But the current rule leads you down that path.

Bob Jonquet wrote:
nosig wrote:
4) Does the Player need to mention to the judge that his PC is using the MWT when the Judge calls for a roll in that skill?

Yes, so the GM can determine if the application of a tool is appropriate for the attempt. It should also help to self-regulate the errors that occur by having the tool auto-added to the modifier.

Yes - I still think Thea for example has her math wrong and mentioning how you come up with a number helps to rectify such problems.

Bob Jonquet wrote:
nosig wrote:
5) How are MWTs used? (Does it take an open hand to use one, even for something like Perform Dance?)

I suppose this would be tool-specific, but in most cases, I would expect the tool to have to be equiped to use. But there are a number of defined tools that are some what passive in their application (perfume/cologne).

A night ago I was musing a Varisian Tatoo Sorcerer and was thinking about the perfect Perception tool. Several tatoos - an eye in the back (signifying that I can see 360 degree), two earth elementals on the soles of my feet (signifying tremor sense), an owl on my left arm (perception at night), a hawk on my right (seeing in the distance). This MW tool would always be active and equipped.

Is it allowed? I can't explain the 1 lb weight - apart of that - it seems to make a lot of sense - better as mood rings etc.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Sorry to revive the thread, but there's something I mentioned in passing earlier that I'd like opinions on.

One of my characters has a Masterwork Tool (Stealth) and a Masterwork Tool (Acrobatics). At the time I bought them, I decided the Acro one would be some nice athletic shoes and the Stealth one would be an assortment of straps to keep his gear from jangling around as he moved.

As you can see, both of these would be worn whenever the character was in the field and would therefore be "always on".

Now M.Moreland has said that MWK Tools need to be pulled out and applied to the appropriate skill, rather than being "static" and therefore able to help with reactive stuff.

Not a huge deal with the stealth one, since usually if you're trying to sneak around you have the time to prepare. But I wouldn't have bought the acrobatics tool if I had to take it out for a specific check and put it away again. Acrobatics just isn't a skill for which that's very useful.

So now what? Obviously (despite a forum post not being "official") I'd feel unethical keeping it as a static item, but having to lose out on the cost (or sell it back for half) is disappointing, given that this character is saving up for something. Yeah, yeah, I know it's only a 25gp net loss, but still. Do I have other options?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Yeah.

Use it, and if a GM objects, state your case and follow her judgement.

The Exchange

Jiggy wrote:

Sorry to revive the thread, but there's something I mentioned in passing earlier that I'd like opinions on.

One of my characters has a Masterwork Tool (Stealth) and a Masterwork Tool (Acrobatics). At the time I bought them, I decided the Acro one would be some nice athletic shoes and the Stealth one would be an assortment of straps to keep his gear from jangling around as he moved.

As you can see, both of these would be worn whenever the character was in the field and would therefore be "always on".

Now M.Moreland has said that MWK Tools need to be pulled out and applied to the appropriate skill, rather than being "static" and therefore able to help with reactive stuff.

Not a huge deal with the stealth one, since usually if you're trying to sneak around you have the time to prepare. But I wouldn't have bought the acrobatics tool if I had to take it out for a specific check and put it away again. Acrobatics just isn't a skill for which that's very useful.

So now what? Obviously (despite a forum post not being "official") I'd feel unethical keeping it as a static item, but having to lose out on the cost (or sell it back for half) is disappointing, given that this character is saving up for something. Yeah, yeah, I know it's only a 25gp net loss, but still. Do I have other options?

if I'm the judge, and I say "gimme a Acrobatics roll" and you say "13, 15 with my MWT sneakers!" I'll say something like "your sure footing saved you from a nasty fall" or "even thou you attemped to duck, the swinging bar trap impacts you and smacks you for X damage". It's a circumstance bonus. I think the Judge should decide if those apply. Thou, I can see it working with some players like this:

I say "gimme a Acrobatics roll" and they say "13, 15 with my MWTool for Acrobatics!" I'll say something like "what's the tool?" and they say - "I've got no idea, but it's the perfict one for the job!" so I say "your tool saved you from X, good thing you had it out" several players giggle.


I'd say, by the book (or by the Mark in this case) the flavor you add to your tools cannot change game mechanics and thus you can't have them be static. Just assume you are benefiting from the shoe when you say "I'm making a Stealth check" and not in other conditions. While I'll miss the flavor of these items, I think you're overthinking things.

Also, Mike or Mark hinted at specific masterwork items for skills that will be in an upcoming book. So you could just wait until then.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Nickademus42 wrote:
Also, Mike or Mark hinted at specific masterwork items for skills that will be in an upcoming book. So you could just wait until then.

Ultimate Equipment isn't coming out until mid-late 2012 so there is a longish wait for that so shelving it might be a bit premature.

Sovereign Court

Jiggy wrote:

So now what? Obviously (despite a forum post not being "official") I'd feel unethical keeping it as a static item, but having to lose out on the cost (or sell it back for half) is disappointing, given that this character is saving up for something. Yeah, yeah, I know it's only a 25gp net loss, but still. Do I have other options?

Another option from selling back the 'reactively used tools' is to simply reskin them.. or 'clarify' them as something else, if you don't like the R word. Call your mwk acrobatics tool a collapsible balancing rod.. or some high-traction footies you'd wear temporarily over your regular boots.. Granted that won't change the 'no-reactive use' nature.

If an option to use them reactively is what you're looking for, there's the talk to your GM option that was mentioned. You could also play the 'forum posts are't official' card and stick to your guns. Who knows, might end up going that way eventually anyway when the equipment book comes out.

The Exchange

Dennis Baker wrote:
Nickademus42 wrote:
Also, Mike or Mark hinted at specific masterwork items for skills that will be in an upcoming book. So you could just wait until then.
Ultimate Equipment isn't coming out until mid-late 2012 so there is a longish wait for that so shelving it might be a bit premature.

I still want to know which applies when I don't own the book. If I have the generic Core book MWT and there is a tool that is defined differently in the UE guide - which applies?

For Example: Let's say if the Healers kit was from the UE guide. I have a character with a MWT Heal from the Core book, why would I bring my UE out when I'm playing that character? it would mean my MWT costs more (do I pay the difference or buy the new kit), wieghs more and only has 10 "charges".

Grand Lodge

nosig wrote:
stuff

I guess the answer is that you wouldn't. Go by the CRB. You will not be able to get a generic masterwork tool for climbing because there is a specific one identified. If there is a cheaper specific tool in another book, you will use it. If there is a more expensive version in another book, it will never be used unless the player specifically wants to use the fluff.

That may not be the "right" answer, but it might be the "best" one.

Sovereign Court

The big problem is that the MW rules text is very vague and not written with org play in mind. It assumes GM discretion. Maybe the equipment book will elaborate on general guidelines more, or pin down a tool for every skill use.

For me the "true" game is levels 1-6, after that it gets to super hero like for my tastes, and so I'm pro-mundane equipment. I'd hope that every character after several levels looks like a fantasy spec ops soldier with bandoliers, pouches and other gear hanging all over the place.

In terms of from the hip rulings, it seems perfectly fine to just use the item slot rules for always on mundane gear. Acrobat boots take up the feet slot, stealthy armor takes up the chest slot, perception takes up the head slot, etc. Eventually all of these little circumstance bonuses are going to be overcome with magic items.

And it all makes sense. While training and experience are going to be essential factors in performance, if you give someone high quality gear then they do end up having an edge. If you had a Navy SEAL all decked out and transported into Golarion, I'd expect there to be some equipment advantages even if all the gear is mundane.

Still, I think the real challenge is to just find something that fits within the active category of tools first. What kind of gear can one use that would allow someone to tumble past an opponent that you have to pull out and use with the action? Firecrackers? A smoke bomb? What kind of tool lets you use stealth?

When you break it down, these are the skills that don't have a tool already:

Bluff
Escape Artists
Fly
Intimidate (at least in a non-cert sense)
Linguistics
Perception
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Spellcraft
Stealth
Use Magic Device

Some of this stuff is pretty easy. Things like Linguistics, Spellcraft and Use Magic Device can all be books that get consulted.

With Perception there have already been some suggestions, like a stethoscope, or maybe one of those funnels you'd see an old guy using in Little Rascals or Three Stooges shows.

But what kind of tool lets you get a bonus to Sense Motive? Today you might have some kind of setup with a camera that measures micro-expressions and alerts you to those discrepancies, but what non-magical device would you use in a medieval/renaissanceish world?

One of the other issues is that the tools that already do exist vary wildly in value. Some are hyper specific on the activity they give a bonus to, but the MW tool rules are a vague and comprehensive bonus. It would be great if the ultimate gear gave a wide range of different stealth pieces of equipment, dribbling out +1 here and there, all rather situational in their use to help versus moving, being seen, being smelt, etc. Right now though it's kind of a low grade Predator field.

Grand Lodge

IMO, the best solution would have been to make the general masterwork tools the most expensive version. Say 100+gp and then all the specific tools that provide the same bonus, are cheaper. That would encourage the selection of the "real" tools and the general listing would just be a placeholder until a real tool existed.

Create the rule that tools must be equipped and use-activated. Nothing passive. You can describe your tool in whatever form you want as long as it is something that has to be actively used in the skill attempt.

The Exchange

the problem is the generic use of the MWT discription in a game where the judge at the table has been removed from the decision of "if" the bonus should apply. We are getting a +2 generic bonus, which is listed as circumstancial, but we are appling it in all circumstances (except for Jiggy, with is why he is having a problem. He feels uncomfortable with appling the bonus, in circumstances that don't match his tool discription).
So, my MWT (Perception) gives me a +2 bonus to hear the conversation in the next room (stethoscope), while at the same time as giveing me a bonus to see the guy in ambush in the woods (binocs), and find the secret trap door (smoke generator), and smell the fire (???). Should I buy 5 (or more) tools for this? Or one tool - that applies in circumstance the judge rules on ?

the MWT is an item that should have direct input from the GM. we have a Judge at the table where we play, not the GM. That's why we have YMMV pop up so much.

If you are a player at a table I am the Judge for, please try to tell me if/when you are using this item. I figure it'll be fine with me - no reason to restrict it. And when I'm a player, I'll try to do the same.


nosig wrote:
I still want to know which applies when I don't own the book. If I have the generic Core book MWT and there is a tool that is defined differently in the UE guide - which applies?

That's one of my pet peeves -- having several different versions of one item defined differently in different books. Grrr...

The Exchange

hogarth wrote:
nosig wrote:
I still want to know which applies when I don't own the book. If I have the generic Core book MWT and there is a tool that is defined differently in the UE guide - which applies?
That's one of my pet peeves -- having several different versions of one item defined differently in different books. Grrr...

It's worse for this I think, 'cause the older version is better in all cases (so far). I mean maybe we'll get "JJ's Tumbling slippers" that give are MWT for both Acrobatics and Perform Dance and only cost 10 gp and can be "equiped" even when you sleep - but I don't think it's going to happen. Mostly they will not be as good. So unless the MWT from the Core book is removed from PFSOP when the UE guide comes out - why use stuff from it? Heck, the only reasons I am not using it (the MWT) in place of the existing kits now is 1) eneria - I started using the kitss before) and 2) it would make me feel funny. (replaceing my MW thieves tools with a MWT (Disable Device) that is cheaper, and lighter.

Liberty's Edge

nosig wrote:
Heck, the only reasons I am not using it (the MWT) in place of the existing kits now is 1) eneria - I started using the kitss before) and 2) it would make me feel funny. (replaceing my MW thieves tools with a MWT (Disable Device) that is cheaper, and lighter.

The problem here comes from PFRPG combining Open Lock and Disable Device.

In 3.5, the MW thieves' tools costed twice the price and weighted twice the weight of the generic MW tool but gave you the +2 circumstance bonus to 2 skills. The one benefit was that you had only one item to hide through Sleight of Hand.

I believe that PFS (and GMs all over) should allow the use of the MW generic tool in place of the MW thieves' tool. Doing otherwise unfairly penalizes the trapfinder.

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