Lizardfolk Barbarian, Beast Totem.


Rules Questions


I'm planning on running my first ever campaign in a few weeks (hopefully) and one of the players in my game ended up making a Lizardfolk barbarian that took the lesser beast totem ability. I've been searching through the rules on the pfsrd and haven't found anything at all that explains how this reacts with the already existing claws of a Lizardfolk. I'm assuming it just adds another two claw attacks to the existing ones, but if anyone could clarify it would be much appreciated.


You cant gain more claw attacks than you have limbs to use them. in this case, give the player the best dice out of both claws, but they dont get extra claw attacks.

The player is doing this because the later powers of the beast totem are extremely powerful, and the lesser one is often considered a tax, even if you dont get any use out of it.


I know the player hasn't ever played pathfinder before, and don't know as much about it as I do. They've just always wanted to play a character that focuses on natural attacks.

As a follow-on to the original question. (And I know this is venturing into Homebrew) How overpowered would it be to allow the character to have access to an additional two claw attacks, since in my mind feet are limbs.

What if I make one of the two pairs secondary attacks?


The rules on natural attacks not granted by the natural form are very light - the CRB was written with only PCs of the core races in mind. There are no actual rules that say you can't have two claw attacks on one hand, it's just implied that your normal fingernails grow. I think almost every GM uses a "one attack per specific body part" rule, with varying degrees of what counts as a body part for that. Llowest common denominator would probably be something like "one bite per mouth, one gore per set of horns/tusks, one claw per hand, one slam per appendage".

Having natural attacks on all limbs is again not explicitly prohibited, but unintended. Felines have only two claws, equines have only two hoofes, etc. For animals that have claws on all limbs, the Rake ability shows under what ciorcumstances they can be used, i.e. when the animal literally jumps onto the target. Otherwise, one set of legs is reserved for standing on (because otherwise it'd look like this).
Still, there are creatures that ignore such limitations, most famoulsy the cute little Deinonychus dinosaur - the talons are the hind leg 'claws' (maybe it flutters when making those attacks?). It's also not hard for a perfectly legal PC to have more natural attacks, a Weretouched Shifter tunring into a deinonychus being a perfect example (bite, two talons, and can use the Shifter's Claws class feature for two claws, all that and pounce at 4th level).

In the end, that the player will have fun with their character is important, but so are the other players - having one PC overshadow other's is very bad. Without knowing the other PCs, what books are allowed, and how far the player is going to optimize the character, it's not really possible to make a good call.
Making one set of 'claws' secondary would greatly decrease the impact, the damage increase is about half as big. Be wary that Greater beast Totem inreases damage and crit multiplier for claws, you might not want to apply that to both sets.


Thanks for taking the time to write out those examples (And the brief amusement. I forgot about that film. Might watch it later.) I thought it a little weird that it wasn't listed anywhere what the limitations are, but with what you've said I'm assuming there just isn't any. Currently we've got a Tiefling Summoner, A Human Rogue, A Human Gunslinger, The mentioned Lizardfolk Barbarian, and A Human Death Cleric (Following Pharasma).

Right now I'm mostly allowing everything on the D20PFSRD and I know for a fact that only one of the players (The rogue) has ever played in pathfinder before. Though they've all played a lot of 3.5. I think I'll go ahead with letting him keep his weaker claw attack when he activates his rage, but have them turn into secondaries. The damage increase doesn't worry me that much since it's really only an average of +1 for each attack's damage.


There is a FAQ that says you can’t have two bite attacks unless you have two mouths; in general I believe that is considered applicable to most natural attacks.

On topic, natural attacks are fairly unbalanced in pathfinder, particularly at low level. A generic lizard man is going to deal about twice as much damage as a non-natural attack martial at levels 1-5 in a full attack, and the proposed 4-claw lizard man will do about 3 times as much damage.


Lelomenia wrote:
There is a FAQ that says you can’t have two bite attacks unless you have two mouths

Link/source? I can't find it.


willuwontu wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
There is a FAQ that says you can’t have two bite attacks unless you have two mouths
Link/source? I can't find it.

its for toothy.


giving the player 2 extra attacks will Be very powerful.

what I would do is when he rages. the size of dice for the claws with the biggest damage dice increases one step.


Lelomenia wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
There is a FAQ that says you can’t have two bite attacks unless you have two mouths
Link/source? I can't find it.
its for toothy.

And the award for most useless FAQ goes to... Seriously, it talks about "in this case", and then later makes the statement "Generally speaking, natural weapons can only be used once per round each." which is not only just plain wrong (you can do that with e.g. Haste or the Multiattack ability animal companions have), but since the question was about having two different "bite" natural weapons, it#s totally missing the question!


Derklord wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
There is a FAQ that says you can’t have two bite attacks unless you have two mouths
Link/source? I can't find it.
its for toothy.
And the award for most useless FAQ goes to... Seriously, it talks about "in this case", and then later makes the statement "Generally speaking, natural weapons can only be used once per round each." which is not only just plain wrong (you can do that with e.g. Haste or the Multiattack ability animal companions have), but since the question was about having two different "bite" natural weapons, it#s totally missing the question!

You'll get over it. : D


Don't worry, I'm fine - the real award for most useless FAQ has been given out a long time ago, anyway: this FAQ literally tells us they "haven’t reached a final decision on what to do". The FAQ does absolutely nothing, never did, and never will. To add insult to injury, they also get their own rules wrong - they presume a rule that says that "bonuses don’t stack from the same source", but the actual rule in the CRB explicitly only applies to untyped bonuses.


Typhaaris wrote:

I know the player hasn't ever played pathfinder before, and don't know as much about it as I do. They've just always wanted to play a character that focuses on natural attacks.

As a follow-on to the original question. (And I know this is venturing into Homebrew) How overpowered would it be to allow the character to have access to an additional two claw attacks, since in my mind feet are limbs.

What if I make one of the two pairs secondary attacks?

There's actually an FAQ that specifies that claws go on hands and talons go on feet (for humanoids)

At low levels giving them double the natural attacks will be very strong. It gets weaker as you level up though.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Lizardfolk Barbarian, Beast Totem. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.