Yin-yang Lycanthropy paladin

[Khell DarkWolf]

Hello forum members,

I got another concept and it is something....I'm having some issues with and really want to see what you guys think.

Been doing some research on anything similiar to it but it'll sound crazy so here goes...

"Paladin [Morally oathbound] skinwalker that shapeshifts, has an internal alter ego that manifests itself like Mr. Hyde that either opposes his moral conduct or goes about it fulfilling it a different way"

This is sounds mechanically impossible really, given the direction of what I'm trying to achieve.

The character being a skinwalker witchwolf has the ability to shapeshift in hybrid form.
Chivalrous by nature and strives to uphold his code of conduct, but then develops a darker manifestation of himself that loses control now and then

BLEACH ANIME SPOILER:

(think Ichigo from Bleach when he becomes a vizard, especially during the Hueco Mundo arc).

The beast within is his strength and his curse. Rage could be good here as well.

It is a tall tale to cram two aspects of being a paladin and even having something similiar to the Master chymist let alone trying to "fake" it in some way to make it look like it.

I've been playing around with the idea of VMC barbarian and going Beastmorph alchemist into Master Chymist (Mutagen, rage +4 str/+10 Con saywut!?) but looking back at my feat list shorten so small makes me rethink it.

Going with the Paladin level focus instead though....I kinda scratch my head. Never having to play one I don't know what to expect and I usually like to multiclass my character concepts as well since I was eyeballing Divine Guardian paladin archetype.

I'm just kinda curious to see what someone else would suggest.

20 pt buy
Assuming level 15 the game ends?

I'm sure there is more I can add, but my brain is fried at the moment. Just ask me something if you want to know more cause I'm sure I forgot something.

EDIT: 12:27 AM

Code of Conduct:

1 - While others make vows, My word is oath binding
2 - Choice is of utmost importance, for we and the individual must make the choice of which path we journey on
3 - I will defend those that cannot, as the last bastion in a dire glimmer of hope those around me
4 - For those that abuse and violate my trust and oath, and so forth found guilty, will be justly dealt with

[Secret Wizard]

How about a Splintersoul Vigilante (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Vigilante%20Splintersou l)?

Combine it with the Zealot archetype (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Vigilante%20Zealot) for divine powers, and you have a 1 class solution to your build!

[avr]

Multiclassing paladin and bloodrager is certainly possible. Both want physical stats + Cha, both get some useful class features early. The shapechanger bloodline would fit, the aspect of the beast feat and casting enlarge person as you enter a bloodrage are compatible with your skinwalker change shape.

Paladin 2 / Bloodrager X or Bloodrager 1 / Paladin X would probably work best. The latter wants the extra rage feat.

[Meirril]

/sigh.

If the character has 2 personalities and one of them acts in a non-lawful, non-paladin code upholding way then the character becomes an ex-paladin until he gets an atonement AND he might not be qualified to atone if the character intentionally chose to break the code.

Just because the 'paladin' personality wasn't in charge it doesn't mean the character can act any way they want to and none of it will carry over to the paladin when they switch back. If you take a paladin, dominate them and then erase their memories of any code violations they don't suddenly get their paladin powers back. Even if you unintentionally break the code, you still fall. Even if the 'you' that did it isn't the normal 'you'.

Paladin code is harsh. They get extra benefits to make up for it. Anything that skirts around breaking that code isn't suppose to be tolerated by a GM. If you want to do it for RP reasons that is fine, but pay the penalty if it really is that important to the character.

[Derklord]

Why does it have to be a paladin? You can act honerable and follow a Code of Conduct without being a Paladin, you know?

A Paladin gets powers from a deity to help them on their righteous path. Why should a deity empower someone who spends half the time working against that?

[Mysterious Stranger]

You are right that mechanically this is not going to work for numerous reasons. First of all if the code of conduct is designed to replace the paladin’s code it is not suitable for a lawful good character. It is more chaotic good than lawful good. If it is designed to supplement the standard code line 2 conflicts with the multiple parts of the code.

If you used a champion of the faith warpriest instead of paladin it could work. They are pretty similar to a paladin except with more magic and can be of any alignment. Play neutral good with your chosen alignment being good instead of lawful good. When in your normal form play as if you are lawful good, when in your alternate form play as if you were chaotic good. Only use the powers granted by champion of the faith archetype while in normal form, and the rage from VMC in alternative form.

[Bloodrealm]

There are several archetypes, a Prestige Class, and an entire base class themed around this concept, and they're all terrible. Please, rethink this course of action. It will only end in frustration for everyone involved.

[Weirdo]

I agree that paladin isn't the only way to do this character; there's nothing wrong with playing a LG barbarian or alchemist/Master Chymist who acts like a paladin. I'm currently playing a bloodrager with a page-long code of conduct.

Unlike some other posters I don't think you couldn't do it as a paladin. You'd just need to make sure your GM is on board with the concept - and to be safe I'd check with all the other players at the table. It would probably go over just fine at most of the tables I've personally played at.

Bloodrealm wrote:

There are several archetypes, a Prestige Class, and an entire base class themed around this concept, and they're all terrible.

Which base class? The standard vigilante isn't supposed to have their identities alignments more than a step apart, which isn't the same thing as "opposing their moral conduct." And I don't think the vigilante is terrible, either.

[Khell DarkWolf]

@Meirril:

Its really only RP reasons. I wasn't looking to abuse ways for an alignment based character doing things he shouldn't be to get scott free of violating code.

We'll rewind a bit on that.

@Derklord:

Your right, it doesn't have to be a paladin. I've always gravitated towards Chaotic characters, and having never played a Lawful one was something I was thinking of giving a shot.

And I could follow an "internal" code of conduct or something even along the lines of a cavalier/samurai edict instead.

I'm exploring the creative bowl here.

@Mysterious Stranger:
With regards to the code of conduct I posted in the edit, it is on the lines of an "internal code of conduct" I was thinking the character followed.

I wrote it spring of the moment, and I can understand the conflict line 2 would give. I'll have to re-do it.

On the topic of Warpriest (champion of the faith), I'm exploring it at the moment and working to whip something up with it and I'll post it here when I get finished for draft.

Thank you.

@Secret Wizard:

Thank you Secret Wizard, I'm looking at the vigilante and the two archetypes you mentioned.

As I read the entire class though, I'm feeling not really drawn to it for this character concept. Part of it being flavor, the other being how the character is specializing.

Example being for a master chymist.

While the character would achieve an alter ego, the mutagen and everything about the prestige and alchemist class only enhance "the alter ego" aspect and leave the normal persona at a lower power level.

I would need something more generalized that "both" duality's can borrow and share from. I'm likely leaning more now on just ditching the ego being a class feature, and instead draw on the strength from a "darker" power to shift between to.

@avr:

Looking to my response to Secret Wizard, this is a much better "generalized" approach I was talking about.

Both can shape-shift, both "could" rage in theory (drawing on different anger/fury/desperation in heat of the moment), and both want the same stat arrays basically.

The character on his own would have normal abilities (or perhaps good/holy-like abilities), but can draw from inner dark energies to empower himself (arcanic in nature) to emphasize on the concept of Yin and Yang which I feel is a better route to pursue.

Like the Warpriest draft, I'm going to whip something up and post it here when I can for review. Thank you.

@Bloodrealm:

The point has been made. Thank you Bloodrealm.

@Weirdo:

Thank you Weirdo. I'm still interested in a paladin but it isn't the end all be all concept, as I'm still exploring the creativity bowl.

I'll post again soon with the drafts. Thank you.

[Meirril]

So just playing around with the idea in my head. If you can convince the GM to let you play around with the stats a bit get him to allow your Skinwalker to have +2 cha, -2 wis, [+2 str in animal/hybrid form]. You could change this to the Fanglord/weretiger type instead if it make the GM more comfortable, but you are reversing the stats in shifter form, and you would prefer strength over dex but dex is fine.

Now make it a straight Sorcerer (maybe False Priest?) with Draconic Bloodline. Do not get rid of the strength bonus. As a matter of fact, put strength as your 2nd best stat after charisma. Now make sure you take only levels in sorcerer and each time you get a new spell level you take one buff spell to make you better at melee combat. So when things look bad and you're running out of power you can use the last of your slots to make yourself into ... a poor melee fighter.

At least you shouldn't feel any hesitation to trade away Claws (level 1 bloodline power) for Blood Havoc because you already have claws. Also starting at 6th level you could go for the Monsterious Physique line of spells to play up the idea that you're becoming more of a monster as you grow in power. And at 12th level you can cast Transformation to become ... a really weak fighter but when combined with Monsterous Physique or other similar polymorph spells you could deal an outrageous number of natural attacks, more than an actual fighter of a similar level with no iterative penalties.

And if you doubled down and went Spell Perfection you could cut your buffing time down to a swift action. Not that is a good idea. Save Spell Perfection for something you'll cast all day long.

[Meirril]

Whoops. I was thinking of the bonus stats from Dragon Disciple prestige class. The character doesn't absolutely need them, but it isn't a bad idea. Honestly the character should be fine without those bonus stats. And if you want to, go Orc blooded instead and grab their strength bonus. Prestige classes are kind of a trap.

Trading away Touch of Rage at 1st level will make you a better blaster. But you might want to keep it for RP reasons. That lets you share your 'curse' a bit. Or trade it for Blood Havoc and keep all that delicious corruption to yourself.

Then learn the cantrip Penumbra to take care of light sensitivity. If anyone asks why you are covered in shadows, tell them that your 'brethren' are drawn towards the darkness. Always talk about how you and your 'brethren' are weak toward the light. Complain about day time missions, and the pain the light causes to your cursed eyes. Wear an unnecessary eye patch. Claim to be heterochromatic (when you aren't). Wrap your hands in bandages to contain your power. Talk about your 'cursed blood'. Don't ever mention that you are a shifter. Note their lack of surprise when you do actually shape change into a weretiger and start clawing people down.

[MrCharisma]

I know I'm going tonregret this but ...

Meirril wrote:

If you take a paladin, dominate them and then erase their memories of any code violations they don't suddenly get their paladin powers back. Even if you unintentionally break the code, you still fall. Even if the 'you' that did it isn't the normal 'you'.

This isn't how the Paladin Code works ...

Paladin Code wrote:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever WILLINGLY commits an evil act.

Links: PFSRD, AONPRD, OLD PATHFINDER SITE.

A dominated Paladin is not "Willing", so they will not lose their class features.

For the OP, this likely is gonna be in GM fiat territory if you want to be an actual Paladin, but as others have said you don't need to be a Paladin, you can be any class and act like a Paladin.

[Derklord]

The issue is that the "who violates the code of conduct" part ot the Ex-Paladins section does not include "willingly". Some people thus claim that "act with honor" is broken even in instances where you're magically forced to act that way. I let everyone be their own judge on how bogus that is.

[Bloodrealm]

I'm going to second the point that it doesn't make sense for a deity to empower a Paladin who is like this, and someone like this would not try to become a Paladin.

[Meirril]

MrCharisma wrote:

I know I'm going tonregret this but ...

Meirril wrote:

If you take a paladin, dominate them and then erase their memories of any code violations they don't suddenly get their paladin powers back. Even if you unintentionally break the code, you still fall. Even if the 'you' that did it isn't the normal 'you'.

This isn't how the Paladin Code works ...

Paladin Code wrote:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever WILLINGLY commits an evil act.

Links: PFSRD, AONPRD, OLD PATHFINDER SITE.

A dominated Paladin is not "Willing", so they will not lose their class features.

For the OP, this likely is gonna be in GM fiat territory if you want to be an actual Paladin, but as others have said you don't need to be a Paladin, you can be any class and act like a Paladin.

"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"

I didn't say commits an evil act, I said violates the code. That part of becoming an ex-paladin doesn't have a 'willing' clause to it. Sure its quibbling, but I feel it is legitimate quibbling.

But regardless, the OP character would become an ex-paladin the first time his alter ego emerges because the character ceases to be Lawful Good. As long as the alter-ego isn't Lawful Good the Paladin ceases to be Lawful Good when the alter ego is in charge. It doesn't matter that the character has a split personality, which is my main argument. Having a split personality doesn't matter to the divine powers that grant a paladin their abilities.

[Khell DarkWolf]

Okay, here are the drafts slapped together as quickly as I could do them.

Warpriest Draft:

@lvl 11
Skinwalker (Witchwolf)

Deity: Ragathiel (LG)
Alignment: Atleast one step within Ragathiel

STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 16 (14 +2 stat level ups @4, @8)
CHA: 8

BAB: +8/+3
Fort: 10
Ref: 3
Will: 12
AC: 21
[Full Plate, Hvy Steel shield]

Traits:
???
???

Class levels and Feats::

Champion of the Faith (Warpriest archetype)
VMC: Barbarian

1g: Weapon Focus feature ; Fey Foundling
3 Bonus: Rage feature ; ??? feat
5g: Raging Vitality
6 Bonus: Power attack
7th: Uncanny dodge
9g: Greater Weapon focus
9 Bonus: Furious Focus
11th Rage power: Reckless Abandon / Scent / lesser Celestial Totem / Lesser spire totem / lesser spirit totem

Equipment:
Bastard Sword
Full Plate
Heavy Steel shield

Not entirely sure how I feel about this one.

------

Bloodrager Paladin Draft:

@lvl 11
Skinwalker (Witchwolf)

Deity: Ragathiel (LG)
Alignment: LG

STR: 14
DEX: 13
CON: 16
INT: 8
WIS: 10
CHA: 16 (15 +1 stat level up @4)
+1 stat level up @8 unallocated

BAB: +11/+6/+1
AC: 18
[Agile Breastplate, Buckler]

Saving Throws [Does not include +2 saving throw from Witchwolf form]
@lvl 5: 9/2/8
@lvl 11: 12/4/10

Traits:
???
???

Class levels and Feats::

2 lvls - Paladin (vanilla)
9 lvls - Bloodrager (Crossblooded or vanilla)
- Arcane bloodline
- Crossblooded bloodline: Celestial, Destined, Abyssal or Shapechanger

Progression:
1 - Paladin
2 - Bloodrager
3 - Paladin
4+ to 11th: Bloodrager

1g: Fey Foundling
2 Bloodline power: Crossblooded line power
3g: Steadfast Personality or Raging Vitality
6th (2nd) bloodline power: Arcane bloodline
5g: Raging Vitality or Steadfast Personality
7g: Ability Mastery (Item Mastery)
8 bonus feat: Power attack
9g: Extra Lay on Hands or Fast Change or Improved Critical
10th (3rd Bloodline power): Arcane bloodline
11g: ???
11th Bonus feat: Iron Will or ???
13g: ???
14th bonus (4th) bloodline power: Crossblooded power
15g: ???
17g: ???
17th bonus: ???
18th (5th) bloodline power: Arcane bloodline for Transformation
19g: ???

Equipment:
Scimitar
Agile Breastplate
Buckler

I was eye balling Exotic heritage feat to improved eldritch heritage to get the +2 inherent bonus to CON with pit-touched (infernal) bloodline but with feat room to consider and then I'm not sure if it is actually worth it.

Can still combo Steelblood or Hag riven or even urban bloodrager as other options.

The ability to have the auto-spell of Transformation as the 16th bloodline power is mouth watering, but its pretty far away...

I think being able to utilize wands could be cool as well. Just an idea.
Horizon Walker is also a possibility, dip enough to become immune to fatigue to rage cycle???

Both I can see have issues with reflex and really low ac.

[Meirril]

Transformation gives a Bloodrager a +4 Enhancement bonus to str/dex/con, +4 bonus to natural armor, and +5 competence bonus to fortitude saves. Oh, and it also makes you unable to cast spells for the duration.

By 16th level (lets not mention 18th) you probably have a +6 bonus to two of those stats if you want them. The natural armor bonus always stacks so that is good, but giving up spell casting for that is not worth it. The +5 to fortitude is situational.

Your BAB should be equal to your level before casting Transformation since all of your classes give you +1 BAB per level.

The other two abilities (Form of the Dragon 1 and Beast Shape 4) will give you a better benefit. Depending on your gear you may not be interested in those abilities either.

It is good to have options, but the options aren't nearly as good as you think they are considering you are a full BAB character.