Paladin mounted archer build?


Advice


I am trying to find a good build for a paladin mounted archer that wont gimp me to badly. I want other peoples opinion on what they would do to make one, its for the Giant slayer adventure path. Currently I am thinking of using a oath of vengeance paladin, taking it to 5th level to get a decent horse as my divine bond, then multiclassing into Sohei monk archetype. After that picking Mounted Skirmisher to bypass the feat reqs for it as a monk bonus feat because a move action is plenty of movement on a horse to still take a full attack action. Then continuing on with paladin normally, maybe retraining that sohei level to paladin once I can afford the feats at higher level if my DM will let me. My one issue with Sohei monk is it sets me back 1 BaB and CL and I can't really use any of the class features it gains with one level, so I don't know if its really worth it to take it just to get Mounted Skirmisher, But at the same time, I like the idea of applying saddle surge to multiple bow attacks and just can't afford that feat at low levels since I need rapid & many shot. Thoughts ?


I haven't put one together myself, but I've seen Paladin archers before in PFS, and they seem to work really well. Smite Evil works great with a bow. You already get a Mount as a Paladin.

I like Teamwork Feats, and there is a Paladin Archetype that gives you Tactician. I think it's called Holy Tactician.

I am very fond of the Swift Girding Spell, which lets you dress in your Full Plate as a Standard Action instead of the several minutes it usually takes. Few things are more frightening then the evil gleam in your GM's eyes when he asks, "Are you sleeping in your armor?" If the answer is "Yes," you wake up Fatigued. If the answer is "No," you WILL have a Wandering Monster encounter, and you will have to fight Hill Giants in your underwear.

I've seen some evil builds involving the Mammoth Rider Prestige Class, but I don't know how riding a Triceratops would work with your archery build.

I like the Orc Hornbow. I like the Gravity Bow Spell. I'm not afraid to Multiclass-dip to get it.

Silver Crusade

Honestly I think your best option is to stay full Paladin. Paladin is one of those classes that either you dip into it two levels on a Cha-focused build, or you go full into it. There are too many class features that depend on Paladin levels.

I think the best option is to keep it simple:

Human, vanilla Paladin of Erastil.
Stats: 14 16+2 12 7 12 14 (with Skilled and FCB you still get 3 skill points per level)

Traits: Seeker, Deadeye Bowman, Fate's Favored.

Feats:
1- PBS, Precise Shot
3- Rapid Shot
5- Deadly Aim
7- Manyshot

Maybe a single level into Dragoon Fighter to get Skill Focus [Ride] and Mounted Combat, if you really want those. After that you're pretty much free to do whatever.

Another great option is to go Half Orc and take advantage of Sacred Tattoo + Fate's Favored and the Orc Hornbow. True, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot will have to be shifted up two levels each, but the higher damage on the Orc Hornbow makes Deadly Aim less necessary, putting back the build on par with the Human by level 5. Furthermore, the base 2d6 damage make Gravity Bow more worth the effort, since it increases the damage by 3.5 points rather than 2.5 of the Longbow. In which case, you can just put a couple of ranks into UMD (maybe with a trait to make it class skill instead of Perception), buy a Wand of Gravity Bow with a Wand Key Ring and cast it yourself.


Oh I didn't see Orc Hornbow, thanks for pointing that out. our group has a crafter wizard in it, and I plan to buy a cracked Vibrant Purple Prism (Ioun Stone) so if I buy some pearls of power or wands, gravity bow wont be a problem.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You don't need mounted skirmisher if you are an archer. That feat is for melee.

Without any feats at all, "You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving." As long as your mount doesn't move more than a normal move, you don't even take any penalties.

Honestly you shouldn't have any trouble with this build at all with just pure paladin and the basic archery feats. Archery is a very strong combat style in Pathfinder and being mounted to maintain maneuverability while full attacking is a huge advantage.


I'm not terribly familiar with Paladins, but would a Divine Hunter with the Animal Ally & Boon Companion feats be viable for you?


I didn't realize it was a melee feat, I am glad I came here to ask.
this makes building my character so much easier now that I know mounted skirmisher isn't needed for ranged attacks, it had me confused because in the feat it said "Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action."


Lagy_Paladin wrote:
Oh I didn't see Orc Hornbow, thanks for pointing that out. our group has a crafter wizard in it, and I plan to buy a cracked Vibrant Purple Prism (Ioun Stone) so if I buy some pearls of power or wands, gravity bow wont be a problem.

Remember, Gravity Bow is a Ranger Spell, not a Wizard Spell, but a Crafter Wizard is awesome.


the crafter wizard is a Samsaran with the Mystic past life alternative racial trait I think, so it wont be a problem.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Remember, Gravity Bow is a Ranger Spell, not a Wizard Spell, but a Crafter Wizard is awesome.

It's also on the sorc/wis list.


Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Remember, Gravity Bow is a Ranger Spell, not a Wizard Spell, but a Crafter Wizard is awesome.
It's also on the sorc/wis list.

huh, well, okay then.


Get your mount, then dip a single level of Sohei monk for Mounted Skirmisher as your bonus feat.

(And, per Gray Warden's advice, be a "vanilla" [CRB] paladin; it's the strongest overall archetype, especially at higher level.)


Lets go over Mounted Combat just to make sure the OP is aware of what happens.

The most pertinent section is: "You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally."

Which can be reduced by Mounted Archery Feat to half the penalty. But that requires 2 feats spent from an already feat hungry archery build.

Mounted Skirmisher isn't necessary for this build at all. You are spending a feat for no benefit since you are already allowed to take a full round action to do ranged attacks by RAW. Mounted Skirmisher benefits melee combatants who don't have pounce.

Honestly, concentrate on archery until you have to wait to get more BAB to get later feats and then bury the 2 feats you need into mounted combat/mounted archery unless you are seriously going to spend the majority of the campaign on mount. Even then I'd recommend spending your first level feats on archery, 3 and 5th on mounted archery then the rest of your archery feats.


Also the ranged combat rules says nothing about the mount taking a single move. From the way I read that, the defualt is you're going to take a -4 to ranged attacks for being mounted and moving more than 5'. The mount could take a 5' step and you'd get no penalties. I don't see anything between the two.


Meirril wrote:
Mounted Skirmisher isn't necessary for this build at all. You are spending a feat for no benefit since you are already allowed to take a full round action to do ranged attacks by RAW.
Not quite; your mount must at least double-move, or run, for its rider be eligible for a full-attack. --This robs the mount of its own attacks, or standard-action otherwise desired, that it may be due, and hoses the rider's full attack possibilities in any situation in which the mount can't, or he doesn't want it to, double-move or run for whatever reason. Mounted Skirmisher eliminates these concerns, and Sohei brings other benefits, such as always acting in the surprise round regardless of noticing the opponent -- a very nice feature indeed for the wisdom-dumped, skill-tight paladin who'd prefer to never drop a single point into a still-horrible Perception score because everyone else in the party keeps theirs maxed anyway).
Quote:
Honestly, concentrate on archery until you have to wait to get more BAB to get later feats and then bury the 2 feats you need into mounted combat/mounted archery unless you are seriously going to spend the majority of the campaign on mount. Even then I'd recommend spending your first level feats on archery, 3 and 5th on mounted archery then the rest of your archery feats.

I recommend he get Mounted Combat and Indomitable Mount squared away first if he intends to stay on the animal as much as possible. --Paladins tend to hit what they aim at anyway, and (three or four) feats is otherwise a very steep tax to pay for (one or two) extra arrows-away, especially when Fey Foundling, Greater Mercy, and Extra Channeling are also out there batting their lashes at your chaste, blushing paladin.

Silver Crusade

Slim Jim wrote:
Meirril wrote:
Mounted Skirmisher isn't necessary for this build at all. You are spending a feat for no benefit since you are already allowed to take a full round action to do ranged attacks by RAW.
Not quite; your mount must at least double-move, or run, for its rider be eligible for a full-attack. --This robs the mount of its own attacks, or standard-action otherwise desired, that it may be due, and hoses the rider's full attack possibilities in any situation in which the mount can't, or he doesn't want it to, double-move or run for whatever reason. Mounted Skirmisher eliminates these concerns, and Sohei brings other benefits, such as always acting in the surprise round regardless of noticing the opponent -- a very nice feature indeed for the wisdom-dumped, skill-tight paladin who'd prefer to never drop a single point into a still-horrible Perception score because everyone else in the party keeps theirs maxed anyway).

This is just plain wrong. You can ALWAYS full attack at range while your mount is moving. The only thing that makes double moves/running different is that, in those cases, your attacks happen mid-movement.

Combat, CRB wrote:
You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving.


Normally an archer build is pretty feat dependent, but that is not necessarily the case with a paladin. The standard archer relies on getting a lot of attacks because his attacks usually do less damage. Because of this damage reduction can severely reduce an archer’s damage. With a paladin that is not the case. Smite evil allows a paladin to do a huge amount of damage per arrow and bypasses all damage reduction. The archer paladin like any other paladin does better against the BBEG than against the minions.

With an archer paladin you also have ways to boost your combat abilities that others lack. Divine favor can gives you a luck bonus on both your chance to hit and damage. Bulls Strength allows you to increase your STR which adds damage to every attack (with an adaptive bow). Litany of Righteousness also works on a bow.

The other thing to consider about the archer paladin is that even when they cannot use the bow they are less tied to the bow than other archers. Most other archer builds lose most of their combat ability if they cannot attack with the bow. Other than feats all of the paladins combat abilities will work equally well on melee attacks. Smite evil works on any weapon not just your chosen weapon.

While you want to try and get as many of the standard archer feats as you can don’t sweat if you don’t get them as early as other archers. They need those feats to be relevant in combat you don’t. Play to the paladins strengths and worry less about being like all the other archers.


Gray Warden wrote:

You can ALWAYS full attack at range while your mount is moving. The only thing that makes double moves/running different is that, in those cases, your attacks happen mid-movement.

Combat, CRB wrote:
You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving.

No. It's context-dependent:

Mounted Combat wrote:
...You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.

The context is of a mount which has completed half of a double move or run. You cannot lift the one sentence you want to see out of the paragraph it is contained within.

-- If it were Paizo's intention that archery always be permissible (at whatever penalty) from a mount, then the sentence "You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving" would *lead* a paragraph of its own, not end one involving a contextual subset of movement.

Mounted Skirmisher (APG, 2010) wrote:

Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.

Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.

The text of Mounted Skirmisher even clarifies so.

-- If you want to move twenty feet and unload halfway, you'll need Mounted Skirmisher unless you're riding a tortoise.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Slim Jim wrote:
Gray Warden wrote:

You can ALWAYS full attack at range while your mount is moving. The only thing that makes double moves/running different is that, in those cases, your attacks happen mid-movement.

Combat, CRB wrote:
You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving.

No. It's context-dependent:

Mounted Combat wrote:
...You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.

The context is of a mount which has completed half of a double move or run. You cannot lift the one sentence you want to see out of the paragraph it is contained within.

-- If it were Paizo's intention that archery always be permissible (at whatever penalty) from a mount, then the sentence "You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving" would *lead* a paragraph of its own, not end one involving a contextual subset of movement.

Mounted Skirmisher (APG, 2010) wrote:

Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.

Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.

The text of Mounted Skirmisher even clarifies so.

-- If you want to move twenty feet and unload halfway, you'll need Mounted Skirmisher unless you're riding a tortoise.

Again, wrong. The phrase I quoted is not dependent on the double movement, since it is its own sentence (preceded by a period, and no reference to the previous sentences: the sentence literally stands on its own). The fact that it is not on a separate paragraph is simply due to the fact that the mounted combat section is already separated into 3 paragraphs: one for melee, one for charging, and one for ranged.

The Normal section in the Mounted Skirmisher feat refers to the melee case which, quite literally, states you can't full-attack if your mount moves more than 5ft. This however does not apply, at all, to the ranged case:

Combat, CRB wrote:
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

To summarize:

- Melee: you can full-attack only if your mount moves 5ft or less, unless you also possess the Mounted Skirmisher feat.
- Ranged: you can always full attack. If your mount double-moves, the attacks occur in the middle of the total movement, with a -4 penalty to hit. If your mount runs, the attacks occur in the middle of the total movement, with a -8 penalty to hit. The Mounted Archery feat halves these penalties.

Please stop spreading misinformation.


Gray Warden wrote:
Please stop spreading misinformation.
Please read aloud the boldfaced RAW, especially the word "Normal":
Mounted Skirmisher (APG, 2010) wrote:

Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.

Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.

-- Without Mounted Skirmisher, your archer doesn't get a full-attack action unless his mount is at minimum double-moving, and after it's gone at least halfway, in accordance with the normal mounted rules.

Silver Crusade

Slim Jim wrote:
Again:
Mounted Skirmisher (APG, 2010) wrote:

Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.

Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.

Without Mounted Skirmisher, your archer doesn't get a full-attack action unless his mount is at minimum double-moving, and after it's gone at least halfway.

And, again, you are wrong. Just read the Mounted Combat rules.


I just cited you the game telling you that you cannot "normally" do what you want. I even boldfaced it for you. (And, a sentence "stand(ing) on its own" is, by definition, a separate paragraph, so that particular sentence is not in fact standing on its own, because grammar is lawful-evil, or something like that.)

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Slim Jim wrote:

I just cited you the game telling you that you cannot "normally" do what you want. I even boldfaced it for you.

Hey, ignore the game rules all you want. --I don't really give a damn what you do in your home games.

I don't think you really understand how written language works. Let's look, once again, at the rules for Mounted Combat.

Combat, CRB wrote:
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

Here we learn that you can full-attack, in melee only if your mount moves 5ft or less. This sentence is quoted by the Mounted Skirmisher feat as the "Normal" case. The paragraph then ends.

The new paragraph specifically refers to ranged combat, and in no way refers to the melee case: therefore there is no reason to believe that anything that was said before about melee attacks would apply to ranged as well.

Combat, CRB (continued) wrote:
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.

The paragraph is composed of 5 sentences: 3 of which independent and 2 of which are dependent on the others. From each one we learn that:

- when the mount is double moving, you can full-attack at -4 penalty to hit
- when the mount is running, you can full-attack at -8 penalty
- when double-moving or running, the full-attack occurs at mid-movement (dependent on the previous two sentences)
- in general, you can full attack while your mount is moving (bolded, no reference to the previous sentences)
- in general, you can do both standard and move actions when your mount is moving (dependent on the previous sentence)

This is not the first time you have been spreading misinformation on the boards, refusing to admit it. Thankfully, at least in this case, the majority of people seem to know how rules work.

Slim Jim wrote:
And, a sentence "stand(ing) on its own" is, by definition, a separate paragraph, so that particular sentence is not in fact standing on its own

Wrong. A sentence standing on its own is, by definition, a sentence composed of a subject, a verb, and no reference (explicit or implicit) to aforementioned elements (through particles such as: therefore, in which case, and so on). A new paragraph is usually started to move to a new and different argument. In the case of the Combat rules, melee combat and ranged combat are different enough to justify different paragraphs. Ranged full-attacks while running and ranged full-attacks while single-moving are not, however, different enough to justify a new paragraph. This doesn't imply, though, that the two sentences are not independent.


Gray Warden wrote:
This is not the first time you have been spreading misinformation on the boards, refusing to admit it. Thankfully, at least in this case, the majority of people seem to know how rules work.
Mounted Skirmisher (APG, 2010) wrote:

Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.

***Normal***: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.

Nine-year-old RAW, right there.

--It's not like Paizo's crack team of professional dream-crushers has only recently swung in at your blind side to nerf a favored bit of previously-enjoyed excess.

Silver Crusade

Alright, keep ignoring the rules then. I told you that sentence refers only to the melee case, and I have showed you why, but apparently it's not enough. I dare you to ask this in the Rules forum and see what comes out.


Gray Warden wrote:
I dare you to ask this in the Rules forum and see what comes out.

I'm sure the devs will drop PF2 to get right on it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Slim Jim wrote:
Mounted Skirmisher (APG, 2010) wrote:

Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.

***Normal***: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.

Nine-year-old RAW, right there.

Potion Glutton wrote:
Normal: Drinking potions is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Yeah, normal sections are always correct...


A clearly-erroneous corner-case does not provide carte-blanche license to ignore any "Normal" clarification that one detests. (Be that as it may, the Rules query is now well underway, and this particular thread foray can come to an end.)


4 people marked this as a favorite.

It seems highly unlikely that a feat introduced in the Advanced Player's Guide was meant to subsume the rules in the Core Rule Book, which state that mounted archers can get full attacks regardless of how far their mount moves (with varying penalties for the amount of movement).

It seems like without developers telling you that your understanding is incorrect you are unlikely to change your opinion.

Good luck to you anyways, and happy gaming.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Advice / Paladin mounted archer build? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.