Monk, Armed or Unarmed? Is an armed monk viable?


Advice


So i have been thinking about playing a monk....
I know monks unarmed damage and abilities get really good starting mid levels, but i wanna know is an armed monk viable as well?
Whats the best setup to play an armed monk? Archetype? Weapons? Traditional monk weapons or totally off the wall, ie greatsword, earthbreaker, that kinda thing?
This is just theorycraft.... looking for options, ideas

Point notes:
*20point buy
*Paizo material only
*not for PFS
*built at lvl 7 and planned to 10
*Standard races, but can work with stuff as long as its not way out in left field

Pls and Thxs


Monks work fine with weapons. In fact, they probably work better with weapons than with unarmed. When you have a sword, you don't have to make the decision about whether you will get an attack enhancement or natural armor.

Additionally, you can get a lot of damage from weapon use. It has been clarified before- while you only get 1x str when you 2 hand with a flurry, you still get 1.5x power attack. So across the "two hands" of flurry's pseudo TWF, you get a total of x3 power attack. That adds up.

Now...archetypes. I will throw my ring in with the sohei. It gets weapon training with a select set of weapons- which means you can get gloves of dueling. When you have both, your non flurry attacks compare to the unchained monk, and your flurries are just as good as a full martial character.

You can also full attack with the weapons you pick for weapon training. And you have polearms as an option. Reach on a monk means you can easily full attack- flurries everywhere. AoOs are the only thing that slightly suffer from your real 3/4 bab.

Sohei can also use light armor and full attack. Assuming a str based build (non-turtle), this is good for survival in early levels, and you could grab mithral breast plate at mid levels (Armor expert allows anyone to use that for free). At high levels... wisdom to AC and scaling AC bonus overtake the AC from armor. But this thread is about weapon using monks, not armored monks.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Ascetic Style feat chain is often worth looking at for an armed monk, as well. Possibly paired with Elemental Fist.


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Ascetic Style on an Unchained Monk is stupidly good because it breaks the class economy.

Usually, UnMonks are stuck with amulet of mighty fists which costs an eye and a leg.

Ascetic Style + Ascetic Form lets the UnMonk completely forget about unarmed strikes, and allows you to fully exploit the power of Unchained Flurry – unlike the regular Monk, you do get 1.5x STR to each attack, plus the Power Attack bonus.

Out of these options, probably the best is the Sansetsukuon, because it's cheap as hell, can deal two types of damage, has some interesting properties, and has a good critical range to exploit the sheer amount of attacks an Unchained Monk gets.

For Finesse users, Ascetic Style + Form can be used effectively with a Waveblade, which has even better critical range. In this case, traits like Monk Weapon Skill become much more important to pile up more damage early on, and more crit-boosted damage too.

Now, Ascetic Style is not the end all solution to weapon Monks.
You can always choose to exploit a different Style feat, while keeping a Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes to use Style Strikes, Stunning Fist, and so on.
This is pretty good if you want to use Mantis Style to get higher Stunning Fist DC while also using a weapon to increase output.
It comboes well with Monk of the Mantis UnMonk archetype since Stunning Fist is a fantastic way to ensure Sneak Attacks.

Anyway I could keep going :P


Dwarftr wrote:

So i have been thinking about playing a monk....

I know monks unarmed damage and abilities get really good starting mid levels, but i wanna know is an armed monk viable as well?
Whats the best setup to play an armed monk? Archetype? Weapons? Traditional monk weapons or totally off the wall, ie greatsword, earthbreaker, that kinda thing?

First, is unchained Monk (unMonk) possible? If not, I'd actually probably steer away from Monk, although Sohei is ok-ish.

Since you've said "Paizo material only" without mentioning restrictions, I'm gonna presume unchained is allowed.

UnMonk is mostly a huge buff to the (melee attack centric) Monk, but has three little downsides. First, the will save is weaker than before. Second, the bonus attack from spending a ki can only be done with unarmed strikes. Third, the new (and awesome!) Style Strikes only work with unarmed strikes.
The first thing is no big deal - our will save is still better than many other martials; when in doubt, I suggest taking the Deathtouched trait (2nd option). The other two problems can be fixed with the Ascetic Form feat.
Ascetic Form isn't striktly necessary, as we could use the bonus ki attack to make Style Strikes and still get our regular attacks with the weapon. It's not that far behind on damage (and about on par with unarmed builds), but we do lose some benefits, and it plays less elegant.

Archetypes: There aren't many good archetypes for unMonk, so your choise is fairly limited. Invested Regent is cool, but only really shines on unusually high stats. Perfect Scholar is interesting if you want some knowledge stuff for relatively low cost. My favourite is Windstep Master, but ask your GM if you can use Flying Kick while using your Swift Ki ability. Of course, the most obvious choice is not to use an archetype at all - unlike cMonk, unMonk doesn't need any to function well!

Weapons: This depends a lot on whether you're using Ascetic Style, because that feat allows you to use your unarmed strike damage instead of the weapon's base damage. It also depends on the GM, because some monk weapons are rather weird. For isntance, Kyoketsu Shoge is listed as a reach weapon, but you supposedly hold one half of the weapon in your hand while swinging the other half around. It should basically be both a B reach and a P or S non-reach weapon, but if the GM follows the listed stats, it's a P or S pure reach weapon. Kusarigama is similar, with the added ambiguity of being a double weapon (RAW, both ends can do either damage type, but that's not how the weapon should work according to the description). Regardless, they're probably the best weapons, because reach is nice.
For non-reach weapons, we basically face the same problems. The base damage isn't really that relevant if using Ascetic Style (they all do the same 1d10 at 8th level, and at least 1d8 at 7th level). When ignoring the double-weapon-with-different-sides stuff, Monk’s Spade is a beast because it can do all three types of damage. Other than that, Double Chicken Saber, Nine-section Whip, and Temple Sword all do 1d8 damage and have 19-20/x2, and you can wield them one-handed, that's useful if you want to both use the Deflect Arrows feat and make AoOs in the same round. Sansetsukon already starts with 1d10 damage and 19-20/x2, but when you want to use Deflect Arrows, you can only make unarmed AoOs.


Secret Wizard wrote:

Ascetic Style on an Unchained Monk is stupidly good because it breaks the class economy.

Usually, UnMonks are stuck with amulet of mighty fists which costs an eye and a leg.

This is no longer true, because since the handwraps from Martial Arts Handbook, unarmed strikes are no longer needlessly hampered. Ascetic Style is still the non-VMC playstyle with the highest damage output, but other styles are close behind (Dragon Style does ~5% less damage).


It seems to me that Weapons do more damage until the Monk is of a certain level, then the Monk is usually better off Unarmed.

Personally, my characters tend to aggressively multiclass, which means that a lot of the time, my MUSD never gets all that high, so weapons are the way for me to go.

Weapons can have some lovely features, like Disarm, Reach and Tripping. A lot of Monk weapons have those nifty little tricks. You can have weapons made of Silver, Cold Iron, or Adamantine to do Slashing or Piercing Damage to increase your Monk's DR bypassing portfolio.

Quote:
=Dragonchess Player ] The Ascetic Style feat chain is often worth looking at for an armed monk,

Ascetic Style is excellent, but it is not always available. For instance, it is not allowed in Pathfinder Society, last I looked.

Derklord wrote:
First, is unchained Monk (unMonk) possible? If not, I'd actually probably steer away from Monk, although Sohei is ok-ish.

Unchained Monk does seem to be much more popular than Core Monk. I still prefer the Core Monk for my builds. Core Rulebook Monks have 3 good saves where Unchained Monks only have 2. And the UnMonk's bad save is Will, which is the worst saving throw to be bad at. I guess it's a philosophical value judgement, but I put more weight on Good Will Saves than I do on Full BAB. In addition, Core Monks get Still Mind at Level 3 where Unchained Monks have to wait until level 4, and that is usually a big deal for me. I like the +2 Will Save Bonus as I already said. Still Mind is a prerequisite for the Monastic Legacy Feat, and I do like my multiclassing. Also, I like the Drunken Master Archetype, which replaces Still Mind, and I don't like waiting to get what I want.

There are archetypes that Core Monks can take better than Unchained Monks can, last I looked.

But if none of those things matter to you, and anyway you're not multiclassing, then enjoy your Unchained Monk.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
It seems to me that Weapons do more damage until the Monk is of a certain level, then the Monk is usually better off Unarmed.

That's not true. Some style are a bit ahead at lowish levels (3rd to 6th), but Ascetic Style is the highest damaging non-VMC playstyle at other levels (and the difference isn't great at those levels). And that's presuming unarmed is using handwraps!

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Weapons can have some lovely features, like Disarm, Reach and Tripping. A lot of Monk weapons have those nifty little tricks. You can have weapons made of Silver, Cold Iron, or Adamantine to do Slashing or Piercing Damage to increase your Monk's DR bypassing portfolio.

Well, unarmed strikes pierce some DR via ki pool. With Ascetic Style, that's also applied to the weapon. Handwraps can have special materials as well.

The combat maneuver weapons don't usually help much because Monk's aren't usually good at maneuvers (due to the lack of bonuses, barring some archetypes).

There are some cMonk archetypes that are good, but those are the ones drastically altering playstyle: (mounted) Sohei, Drunken Master-Sensei, Tetori, Far Strike, Zen Archer. If you're not taking any of those, and not multiclassing, cMonk doesn't even play in the same league. Ki Powers and Style Strikes are just too powerful.


Derklord wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
It seems to me that Weapons do more damage until the Monk is of a certain level, then the Monk is usually better off Unarmed.
That's not true. Some style are a bit ahead at lowish levels (3rd to 6th), but Ascetic Style is the highest damaging non-VMC playstyle at other levels (and the difference isn't great at those levels). And that's presuming unarmed is using handwraps!

Yes, Ascetic Style is awesome, but like I said before, sometimes Ascetic Style isn't available to the Player. For instance, like I said before, last I looked, you can't take Ascetic Style in Pathfinder Society.


Since the OP says "not for PFS" straight out, I don't think "Ascetic Style isn't allowed in PFS" is relevant. By all means pick up Ascetic form or grab a waveblade or a sansetsukon in a home game.

A fun think about Ascetic Style is that it's technically a weapon style feat (since it requires weapon focus as a prereq) so you can combine it with any other style via Martial Focus + Weapon Style Mastery.


Derklord wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

Ascetic Style on an Unchained Monk is stupidly good because it breaks the class economy.

Usually, UnMonks are stuck with amulet of mighty fists which costs an eye and a leg.

This is no longer true, because since the handwraps from Martial Arts Handbook, unarmed strikes are no longer needlessly hampered. Ascetic Style is still the non-VMC playstyle with the highest damage output, but other styles are close behind (Dragon Style does ~5% less damage).

Flying Kick for movement, Foot Stomp for disabling, Elbow Smash for Jabbing Style and Spinning Kick to land Stunning Fists are too valuable to consider Handwraps in my opinion.

Would totally use them on a Brawler.

On an UnMonk? Only with Pummeling Style.


Wouldn't handwraps apply to elbow smashes? If you look at the art for Sajan, his handwraps go all the way up past his elbows, so I'd allow it.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Wouldn't handwraps apply to elbow smashes? If you look at the art for Sajan, his handwraps go all the way up past his elbows, so I'd allow it.

Handwraps specifically says "hands".


Quick question, can a sohie monk flurry with marital weapons, or only those that have the monk property?


Let's keep marital weapons outta this conversation; this is a family friendly forum.

Until 6th level, a sohei's flurry of blows feature works exactly like a vanilla monk's flurry of blows--they can only flurry with unarmed strikes or weapons with the monk special feature, and they can only flurry while unarmored and unencumbered.

Starting at 6th level, a sohei adds any weapon in which they have weapon training to the list of weapons with which they may flurry.


blahpers wrote:
Until 6th level, a sohei's flurry of blows feature works exactly like a vanilla monk's flurry of blows--they can only flurry with unarmed strikes or weapons with the monk special feature, and they can only flurry while unarmored and unencumbered.

The bolded part is not correct - since the writer make the mistake of overwriting the entire armor and weapon proficiency part, and the idiot who wrote the Monk for 3.0 had the oh-so-awesome idea of putting that limitation in the proficiency rules instead of the rules for the actual ability, Sohei can use Flurry of Blows in armor. This FAQ confirms it. They changed the wording to so that Sohei only alters and not replaces the proficiencies in the second or third printing, but didn't address the issue, which means the FAQ still stands.

Secret Wizard wrote:
Flying Kick for movement, Foot Stomp for disabling, Elbow Smash for Jabbing Style and Spinning Kick to land Stunning Fists are too valuable to consider Handwraps in my opinion.

Having a higher bonus on the other attacks actually makes up for not having the bonus at all one one attack. It's certainly annoying because we suddenly have different attack rolls, damage rolls, DR penetration, etc. I agree that for builds using Foot Stomp or Spinning Kick handwraps lose value.

Elbow Smash is a weird case because it's not really clear where flavor ends and rule beginns. Flying Kick's first sentence says you "leap through the air", yet the jump mechanic isn't involved, and you still suffer difficult terrain and stuff. Is that flavortext or ruletext? Elbow Smash has the same issue, the elbow part is only mentioned in that first sentence. For that reason, and the freaking iconic's official art, I'd allow handwraps to apply to Elbow Smash as a GM. PFS has not allowed handwraps (unsurprisingly, being the Official Home of 'Martials Can't Have Nice Things'), so that's no issue.


The Best Monk - medium with archetype "Medium of the Master"


Absolutely monks work great while armed. In fact, that's why Paizo created the Unchained version to nerf them. (That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.)

Too many ways now to 2hPA flurry the weapon of your heart's fancy, and roast Ki all day long with meditation crystals.


PhD. Okkam wrote:
The Best Monk - medium with archetype "Medium of the Master"

Really more of a Brawler, since you want to wear armor with that archetype.


PhD. Okkam wrote:
The Best Monk - medium with archetype "Medium of the Master"

This only works with:

1. Nature Oracle (Whisper of Nature) and Scion of War feat.
2. UC Scaled Fist Monk-1
3. Medium of the Master-1
4. UC Scaled Fist Monk-2
5. Medium of the Master-2
6. UC Scaled Fist Monk-3
7. Medium of the Master-3
8. UC Scaled Fist Monk-4
9. Medium of the Master-4
10. UC Scaled Fist Monk-5
11. Medium of the Master-5
12. UC Scaled Fist Monk-6
13+. Medium of the Master...

With Monk's Robes...

Otherwise, the Medium is never the better Monk.


Slim Jim wrote:
Too many ways now to 2hPA flurry the weapon of your heart's fancy, and roast Ki all day long with meditation crystals.

Meditation Crystals need to be activated by someone expending uses of channel energy, and the charge only lasts for 24 hours so you can't stockpile them.

Unless you're cha-based and multiclass into cleric I don't see how the Meditation Crystals would help. Is there some kind of trick?


Slim Jim wrote:

Absolutely monks work great while armed. In fact, that's why Paizo created the Unchained version to nerf them. (That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.)

Too many ways now to 2hPA flurry the weapon of your heart's fancy, and roast Ki all day long with meditation crystals.

I'm still partial to Core Monk myself. I thought I stood alone in this.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I'm still partial to Core Monk myself. I thought I stood alone in this.

Don't worry, you're not alone - there are always more people clinging to some outdated thing even when there's no rational reason to do so!


Everyone is actually correct...

Core Monk is only for saves..


Wonderstell wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
Too many ways now to 2hPA flurry the weapon of your heart's fancy, and roast Ki all day long with meditation crystals.

Meditation Crystals need to be activated by someone expending uses of channel energy, and the charge only lasts for 24 hours so you can't stockpile them.

Unless you're cha-based and multiclass into cleric I don't see how the Meditation Crystals would help. Is there some kind of trick?

Infinite Ki via crystals is definitely one of the side-benefits of a Crusader's Flurry cleric-dipping chained monk build (and you can dump charisma to the floor if you don't use Channel for anything except as a gateway to the aforementioned feat).


VoodistMonk wrote:

Everyone is actually correct...

Core Monk is only for saves..

...and fun archetypes that unfortunately aren't compatible with the UnMonk. The best part about playing chained monks is coming up with the name of your class when stacking archetypes.

Brazen Ghost of the Mountain, or The Mountain's Hungry Disciple are mechanically the same, but gives off a different feeling.

I did however settle for Starving Student Serving Stone for my Brazen Disciple/Hungry Ghost Monk/Monk of the Sacred Mountain monk.

***

@Slim Jim

You're really gonna have to walk me through this.

Let's say we have a Cha 7 monk dipping one level for Crusader's Flurry. They have one use of Channel Energy per day, which they use to activate their Meditation Crystal Channel Foci.

Channel Foci wrote:
Activating a focus is identical to channeling energy, but instead of directing the power outward, the cleric (or other appropriate character) directs it into the focus, expending one use of channel energy.

So now they have one activated Meditation Crystal. How do they get more than that?


Derklord wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Until 6th level, a sohei's flurry of blows feature works exactly like a vanilla monk's flurry of blows--they can only flurry with unarmed strikes or weapons with the monk special feature, and they can only flurry while unarmored and unencumbered.

The bolded part is not correct - since the writer make the mistake of overwriting the entire armor and weapon proficiency part, and the idiot who wrote the Monk for 3.0 had the oh-so-awesome idea of putting that limitation in the proficiency rules instead of the rules for the actual ability, Sohei can use Flurry of Blows in armor. This FAQ confirms it. They changed the wording to so that Sohei only alters and not replaces the proficiencies in the second or third printing, but didn't address the issue, which means the FAQ still stands.

The heck. They issued a FAQ stating A, promised that the next printing would be changed to reflect A, then printed B instead.... *shrug*

I have no idea what the intent is then. ETV.


Wonderstell wrote:
...and fun archetypes that unfortunately aren't compatible with the UnMonk.

While thinks like the Drunken Master/Sensei are a blast as a support character, there are also a handful of core monk archetypes without UMonk analogues since they are intended as power boosts to the core monk.

But all of these are specific builds that require a high degree of systems mastery to pull off, so for the "I want to run around shirtless and punch people and I want this to work from level 1" characters, just pick the UMonk.


Derklord wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I'm still partial to Core Monk myself. I thought I stood alone in this.
Don't worry, you're not alone - there are always more people clinging to some outdated thing even when there's no rational reason to do so!

My rational reason is the sohei. It gets enough bonuses to make monk an actual martial character. With that, it is enough of a preference and similar competing products (the 'monk fixes' competition is pretty crowded with brawler in there too; in comparison, it is surprising the 'rogue fixes' all seemed to find their own unique niches)

Now, if they went to the effort to make the various archetypes compatible with unmonk... then yes. There would be nearly no reason to stay with core.


VoodistMonk wrote:

Everyone is actually correct...

Core Monk is only for saves..

I tend to value Good Will Saves over full BAB.

I also want Still Mind at level 3 instead of Level 4. Part of that is again, for the Will Saves, but also Still Mind is a Prerequisite for things I like. Part of that is that my builds tend to have a lot of multiclassing, and I don't want to dip 4 levels for something I could only dip 3 levels to get. And one of those things would be a +2 - +5 on my Will Saves.

Will Saves are the most important Saves to be good at. You know the old saying:

Fail a Reflex Save, and you get hurt.
Fail a Fort Save, and you die.
Fail a Will Save, and the whole party dies.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
VoodistMonk wrote:

Everyone is actually correct...

Core Monk is only for saves..

I tend to value Good Will Saves over full BAB.

I also want Still Mind at level 3 instead of Level 4. Part of that is again, for the Will Saves, but also Still Mind is a Prerequisite for things I like. Part of that is that my builds tend to have a lot of multiclassing, and I don't want to dip 4 levels for something I could only dip 3 levels to get. And one of those things would be a +2 - +5 on my Will Saves.

Will Saves are the most important Saves to be good at. You know the old saying:

Fail a Reflex Save, and you get hurt.
Fail a Fort Save, and you die.
Fail a Will Save, and the whole party dies.

1. This is defeatism. Best way to avoid Will saves is actually hitting the mage, actually getting that Stunning Fist through, actually getting that grapple to lock itself. But that, we can debate.

2. This is still wrong. Monk does not have better Will saves than UnMonk.

It's tantamount to saying Wizards have less skill ranks than Bloodragers because Wizards have 2 ranks and Bloodragers have 4. It's completely ignoring the structure around them.

CRB Monk needs as fat attack mods as they can get to DO ANYTHING AT ALL. That means you have less points to leave for WIS. UnMonks have +2 attack when flurrying, and a ton more when hitting once.

CRB Monk has d8 HD, meaning it has less padding than d10, meaning CON is even more important for CRBs.

Everyone has been going on and on about how much they love Sohei... yeah, because Sohei doesn't need to spend points in Wisdom that the CRB Monk can't afford!

Meanwhile the UnMonk:

1. Has more free feats.
2. Has less need for CON.
3. Has less need to have ungodly attack mods.

TLDR: UnMonks have equivalent Will saves than regular Monks because feat/trait/ability score/item economy is a thing.

UnMonks can pick up Iron Will and a +Will trait, plus naturally high Wisdom, and be on par with CRB Monks that are stretched out too thin or Sohei who don't get Wisdom to start with.

By the time lolendgame rolls through and the +6 Will could matter, UnMonk has Perfect Mind.


Also, if you're really worried about will saves, the Though Shield line of spells is aviable as Qinggong Powers (TS1 for +4 vs mind-affecting at 6th level, TS2 for +6 at 8th level, TS3 for +8 at 10th level, TS5 for +8 with round/level duration at 14th level).

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I tend to value Good Will Saves over full BAB.

It's not about full BAB, it's about the other goodies: No -2 penalty on attack rolls. 1.5xStr on two-handed attacks. Style Strikes, which includes the ability to move and still full attack. Ki Powers, which includes Empty Body at 4th level, Abundant Step four levels earlier (which also means earlier access to Dimensional Dervish), Restoration three levels earlier, and Ki Leech one level earlier and not having to compete with Restoration, Insightful Wisdom which can easily save party members, and Diamond Soul which is way better as an activated ability.

Sure, most of that stuff is irrelevant when multiclassing out after but three levels, but then again, such character isn't what you'd usually think of when talking about a Monk. The OP talked about starting at 7th level and doesn't mention multiclassing, I don't think Monk3/X4 is what he had in mind.

I don't think anyone is debating that there are archetypes that make picking cMonk worth it. Most of these archetypes drastically alter the playstyle, though, and when the OP is talking about "armor or unarmed" and "monk weapon, greatsword, or earthbreaker", I think I can say with sufficient certainty that they are inquiring about (as I put it) "(melee attack centric) Monk", and not a Monk with a bow or thrown weapon, or a grappler.


To each his own, guys. I have my own reasons for liking Core Monks over Un. Monks. You have yours for preferring the other. I want to play the game my own way according to the rules, and I encourage everyone else to do likewise.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
To each his own, guys. I have my own reasons for liking Core Monks over Un. Monks. You have yours for preferring the other. I want to play the game my own way according to the rules, and I encourage everyone else to do likewise.

Agreed.

But don't come with that Will save nonsense. That's a newb trap.


Secret Wizard, don't insult me. Don't insult my ideas. My reasons are good reasons.

You think you are so awesome that you will go your whole gaming career without ever having to make Will Saves? Yeah, good luck with that. You neglect your Will Saves at your peril. Neglecting your Will Save is the real newb trap!


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Secret Wizard, don't insult me. Don't insult my ideas. My reasons are good reasons.

You think you are so awesome that you will go your whole gaming career without ever having to make Will Saves? Yeah, good luck with that. You neglect your Will Saves at your peril. Neglecting your Will Save is the real newb trap!

Yes let's ignore the post where I state that even if the chassis has good will saves, the character itself will never be better at succeeding at them because they are constrained by build economy.

Again, if you want me to respect your opinions, you got it.

But an argument is not an opinion and it invites discussion.

You are wrong about having better will saves. If you still want to play CRB Monk, go nuts!

If someone wants to eat ice cream because they like it who am I to stop them? But if you come and say you like ice cream because it makes your feet grow two sizes I'm going to say "what"


One thing regarding uMonks and will saves is- be extremely careful with Cha monks here. If you're playing like a Nornkith (one of those cMonk only archetypes since it's powerful) you have a buffer for high cha and low wis since your class supplies a lot in terms of will saves. I have seen Unchained Scaled Fists whose will saves were probably a bit too low. Steadfast Personality will help, but a lot of your nastier will saves (magic jar, plane shift, bestow curse, being teleported against your will, etc) are not mind affecting.

But for non-Cha uMonks, the will save is really not a problem.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

One thing regarding uMonks and will saves is- be extremely careful with Cha monks here. If you're playing like a Nornkith (one of those cMonk only archetypes since it's powerful) you have a buffer for high cha and low wis since your class supplies a lot in terms of will saves. I have seen Unchained Scaled Fists whose will saves were probably a bit too low. Steadfast Personality will help, but a lot of your nastier will saves (magic jar, plane shift, bestow curse, being teleported against your will, etc) are not mind affecting.

But for non-Cha uMonks, the will save is really not a problem.

I think that's essentially the trade off, though I'd remark that Scaled Fists are especially good against several key saves: Dragon Style + the Still Mind replacement is a +4 vs fear, paralysis and uh the third one


Wonderstell wrote:
Channel Foci wrote:
Activating a focus is identical to channeling energy, but instead of directing the power outward, the cleric (or other appropriate character) directs it into the focus, expending one use of channel energy.
So now they have one activated Meditation Crystal. How do they get more than that?

Well, see, now that's the easy part: You go to where I wrote cleric, draw a line through it, and replace it with paladin. <Kenobi hand-wave>

Ta dah!

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