Fighter / Ranger can attack seven times per turn. Should it be nerfed?


General Discussion


I only saw one other thread about this topic and it was older so I decided to bring the topic back. This is the feat breakdown.

1. Double Slice - two actions two attacks

2. Ranger Dedication

4. Twin Takedown - One action two attacks

6. Targeted Hunter

12. Desperate Finisher

14. Two Weapon Flurry - One reaction two attacks

+ Quickened is seven attacks

Give me two scimitars or Orcish Necksplitters and that damage is insanely high.

I don't feel like this is intentional. I wanted to let someone at Paizo know before the books get released.


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Double slice has a -2 penalty if you don't use an agile weapon in your offhand and requires you to spend money on two weapons. Also after those attacks are made you take the multiple attack penalty for having made two attacks. All attacks after these two take a -10 to hit, or -8 with agile weapons.

Twin Takedown uses up the third of your available actions.

I can't find Targeted Hunter.

The main take away here is, your attack penalties will become so high you wont hit anything without a nat 20.

I found as a fighter I wouldn't make more than two attacks in a round because the penalty to attack meant I didn't hit.


Targeted Hunter is in the archetypes update. It lets you use the Hunt Target ability any number of times per day. I pick that because you can only use the Twin Takedown on your Hunt Target and if you can only use it once, if you kill the guy then that combo is lost until a long rest is completed.

Honestly, trying for Nat 20's is better than Twin Parry.


I don't see any reason to use that instead of trying to hit glancing blows instead with forceful. Your average DPS will be a higher... Besides that you need your first turn to mark someone, and you will crit fail a lot. What might not be a great idea.


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I don't think it needs nerfed, as it's really a subpar strategy and just obnoxious. I wouldn't mind seeing it removed, because again it's just obnoxious, but I'm not sure that can be reasonably done. Just don't do this, it's a terrible idea for the reasons Claxon outlined and also because it's obnoxious.

Did I mention it's obnoxious?

All that said, this isn't even the max number of attacks you can manage in a turn. You want the max, you don't even use Double Slice.

Action 1, Twin Takedown, 2 attacks.
Action 2, Two Weapon Flurry, 4 attacks.
Action 3, Two Weapon Flurry, 6 attacks.
Reaction, Desperate Finisher, Two Weapon Flurry, 8 attacks.
Add in Haste and you can have a 9th.

Of course this one gets you 1 attack at full accuracy, one at -4 or 5, and 6 or 7 at -8 or 10 instead of 2 at full and 5 or 6 at -8 or 10. And again, non-agile weapons in the second hand invoke an additional -2 on half of these strikes.

Again, this is really just a terrible choice in general. Once you're at that -8 or -10 penalty it's much better to find other things to do with your actions, Twin Parry and hope someone triggers Twin Riposte is honestly probably better than using an action and a reaction for two weapon flurries. Not to mention that most self-respecting Fighters will have one or more extra reactions for certain abilities, so you'd be losing multiple reactions to use Desperate Finisher for that pair of -8 or -10 strikes.

Now if you want a great Fighter/Ranger TWF setup, here's a recommendation:

1: Double Slice
2: Ranger Dedication
4: Twin Takedown
6: Targeted Hunter
8: Twin Parry
8 (Fighter Class Feature): Twin Riposte
10: Agile Grace

Here you have a setup that gives you a nice variety of options. If you are in a situation where you can use 3 actions to attack, you can use Double Slice and Twin Takedown to get 2 attacks at full accuracy and 2 at -6, not too harsh of a penalty. If you only have 2 actions to attack, you could use twin takedown and a regular strike to get one attack each at full, -3, and -6.

Or with three actions you could get full, -3, and -6, while still parrying and maybe getting a twin riposte that round.

Or you could use double slice for 2 attacks at full and then parry.

With Haste you can do these setups even easier with the extra action to stride or strike.

I think it's a good setup at least, it gives you a variety of options for different types of enemies, you'll be making a lot of attacks at high to moderate accuracy while still having good mobility and not just doing the same thing over and over. Overall I think it's a lot more useful than the 7 attack routine.

Oh yeah, there is the need to spend an action to hunt target if you want to use twin takedown. Forgot about that. But it's still workable IMO.


I don't think Twin Takedown works with Twin Flurry and an agile weapon. Twin Flurry requires your MAP to be at -8 or worse. Hunt Target lowers your MAP to -6 if you use an agile weapon. IDK how that affects the math but I expect the answer is not well.


Captain Morgan wrote:
I don't think Twin Takedown works with Twin Flurry and an agile weapon. Twin Flurry requires your MAP to be at -8 or worse. Hunt Target lowers your MAP to -6 if you use an agile weapon. IDK how that affects the math but I expect the answer is not well.

Ranger MC Hunt Target unfortunately does not lower your MAP, unless update 1.6 changed that. IIRC it only provides you with the skill bonuses from Hunt Target if you have it via Multiclass.


Edge93 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
I don't think Twin Takedown works with Twin Flurry and an agile weapon. Twin Flurry requires your MAP to be at -8 or worse. Hunt Target lowers your MAP to -6 if you use an agile weapon. IDK how that affects the math but I expect the answer is not well.
Ranger MC Hunt Target unfortunately does not lower your MAP, unless update 1.6 changed that. IIRC it only provides you with the skill bonuses from Hunt Target if you have it via Multiclass.

Oh, right, Hunter's Edge wasn't a thing when the multiclass dedications were written. So it was intended to give the MAP bonus originally, but doesn't anymore. Hunt Target just grants Survival/Perception bonuses and the increased range increment.

Carry on.


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Ethano wrote:

I only saw one other thread about this topic and it was older so I decided to bring the topic back. This is the feat breakdown.

1. Double Slice - two actions two attacks

2. Ranger Dedication

4. Twin Takedown - One action two attacks

6. Targeted Hunter

12. Desperate Finisher

14. Two Weapon Flurry - One reaction two attacks

+ Quickened is seven attacks

Give me two scimitars or Orcish Necksplitters and that damage is insanely high.

I don't feel like this is intentional. I wanted to let someone at Paizo know before the books get released.

The only thing that could really make this worse is if you take feats like Glancing Blow which turn misses into minimum-damage hits, but those are unique feats that don't stack with stuff like this since they are their own actions with specific triggers. I could be wrong here, but I'm certain this would be a reason why that's not viable.

That being said, attacks at -8 (or even -6 with Ranger class with Fighter Dedication) aren't going to be very threatening to appropriate level enemies. Against lower level enemies, they will be quite useful for clearing out adjacent trash, but I'd much rather trust that to Fighters using Reach weapons with Attacks of Opportunity, since they are more safe against lower level enemies, and are much more accurate by suffering less penalties, meaning they are more realiably able to clear out mooks, though they may not be able to potentially get as much, the math would work itself out to equal all things considered.

In short, it's not really strong, and has a useful niche that other fighting styles might not be able to compare to. In my mind, that's smart and fair design, and is certainly something I'd like to see in the game more often; useful yet varied niches of playstyles that classes support.


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Let's do a basic math gameplay breakdown on how this apparent combination will be effective. For simplicity purposes, we're going to use a 14th level Fighter with Ranger Dedication and two +3 weapons (or a +3 weapon with a Standard Doubling Ring; either way works). We can add more, but this is merely an exercise in accuracy.

So, our 14th level Fighter will probably have 22 Strength thanks to his Belt of Giant Strength, and will also have Legendary in Weapons. With his +3 bonus to hit, we're looking at +26 on his first attack. If we throw in agile weapons (which reduces his overall damage), we're looking at +22/+18 on his subsequent attacks, or +21/+16 if non-agile.

Of course, we also need to rely on mechanics like Hunt Target, as well as getting into melee range, to make use of our special combat feats. In most combats, we can expect to spend an action on each requirement, since enemies can be as little as 10 feet away, or as much as 60 foot (or more in some cases). But a standardized 30 foot distance seems appropriate in most every scenario (and the good news is that Quickened usually lets you Stride in place of Strike for your free action, meaning Quickened can still help even when not attacking).

Now, the AC of a level 14 creature is in the 33 range. So, our intrepid Fighter with his amazing 7 attacks will hit this level approriate creature on a 7+ roll with his first attack, and an 11/12+ roll on his second attack, and a 15/17+ on his third and further attacks. In other words, his first attack has a 65% chance to hit (including a 15% critical hit chance), his second attack then drops to 45% (or 50% with agile weapons), and then to 20% (or 30% with an agile weapon).

These odds aren't the worst, but they most certainly stop being in the Fighter's favor after 2 attacks, and this is about as optimal as you can get without including bonuses to attack (or AC debuffs on an enemy, which do certainly help, but aren't factored in for simplicity purposes). However, each attack is likely to only do 4D8+Strength or 4D6+Strength with Agile traits, compared to a Fighter doing 4D12+Strength or even 4D10+Strength. The biggest difference is that our 14th level Fighter, if he went the two-handed route, could select Certain Strike as a feat, making even his low-accuracy attacks devastating; combined with a D10 Forceful weapon (such as a Falchion), he's inflicting consistent damage while still not forgoing the possibility of a full-on hit, compared to a two-weapon specialist whose feats are incongruent with feats like Certain Strike, and being Quickened gives him more of the same benefit if he utilizes feats like Power Attack or Sudden Charge. He also doesn't need to dip his toes into Ranger shenanigans. He could simply go into Barbarian territory and grab Rage (with the Rager feat in place of the Targeted Hunter feat), meaning when he utilizes Certain Strike, he gets Rage damage on top of Forceful on top of minimum damage! A basic math calculation would suggest that he deals 18 (or 22) damage, as we include [4 dice + 6 Strength + 4 Rage + 4/8 Forceful]. Sure, he might create a point of vulnerability for himself later on in combat, but this really pushes the playstyle of "Kill your enemies before they kill you," which is what has always been promoted back in PF1.

That same fighter can also make Attacks of Opportunity with Reach weapons, creating a safety barrier while also having a pseudo-full attack bonus to make enemies crumble before his power via tripping, and also being able to go toe to toe (AKA not being disadvantaged) against most larger enemies. He might not be able to get as much potential enemies, assuming they are weaker (such as level 12 or even 11), but he is far more consistent, which is what matters most in this edition now more than ever since the math is tighter than it was before.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Math

Nice analysis. Two quick things though: The non-agile weapon users are in a worse place than you outlined, as every TWF action will have a -2 Circumstance penalty on the second strike. So instead of 45% and 20% for the different levels of MAP, it's 45/35 and 20/10. Honestly not very viable.

The other thing, you can circumvent this penalty and wield one non-agile weapon and one agile weapon. This would give you d8 in one hand and d6 in the other, with 45/50 and 20/30 accuracy at the levels of MAP. But honestly full agile is also better.

I hate to admit it but if you can get Flanking regularly and keep bless or heroism on yourself, and even more so if you have a debuffer ally, this style is fairly viable against on-level enemies. Though it may still fall apart against higher level foes. I still prefer the TWF build I posted a few comments back though.

Also Battleaxe/Hatchet is a good weapon choice for this, the Sweep trait hives a little accuracy boost when attacking multiple foes in a turn.

Or I suppose you could go Drizzt and dual wield Scimitars and fish for Nat 29 Forceful crits but that's a terrible idea. XD

One other note, any per-hit damage boosts you bring tip the balance a little toward TWF in the TWF/THF debate. Stuff like Heroism or Property runes (with a greater doubling ring to help) make a difference. Not sure how much, but it's there.


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I thought TWF is only penalized with Double Strike and not Twin Takedown. Could be wrong, I'm not 100% familiar with both descriptions, but the odds still aren't in the favor of TWF for consistency, since Certain Strike is a powerful feat if you don't use things like Intimidate or Deception (which could be understandable for a Fighter who doesn't have an extreme reason to push Charisma), and is not conducive to TWF combat due to it being its own action requirement.

And remember, while it's true that on-hit effects like damage bonuses and weapon properties can be applied more with TWF combat, the odds of it actually being the case isn't as possible, and also don't forget that those properties still take effect even with Certain Strike, meaning it won't be as close as it may seem, since even the near misses apply the extra bit of damage or so from weapon properties. (Yes, I double-checked and it says every dice; a shame, really, but excellent for weakness exploiting.) Similarly, Certain Strike can't be used with the Quickened condition, which is a pity. All that really does is give them a free Move, or a free non-special attack that could or could not work out so well.

Yes, Battleaxe/Hatchet is an awesome combination, perhaps perfect for the TWF niche, since if they are meant to excel at defeating low level enemies simultaneously, getting the bonuses to attacking different targets helps out a lot if they can defeat them in a couple quick strikes.

Again, I do agree that TWF has more potential, but the odds of reaching that potential are very slim. It's about the same odds as getting maximum damage on a top-level Fireball spell, or another spell with crazy amounts of damage dice. Hopeful, but realistically unlikely to happen compared to rolling less dice.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

I thought TWF is only penalized with Double Strike and not Twin Takedown. Could be wrong, I'm not 100% familiar with both descriptions, but the odds still aren't in the favor of TWF for consistency, since Certain Strike is a powerful feat if you don't use things like Intimidate or Deception (which could be understandable for a Fighter who doesn't have an extreme reason to push Charisma), and is not conducive to TWF combat due to it being its own action requirement.

And remember, while it's true that on-hit effects like damage bonuses and weapon properties can be applied more with TWF combat, the odds of it actually being the case isn't as possible, and also don't forget that those properties still take effect even with Certain Strike, meaning it won't be as close as it may seem, since even the near misses apply the extra bit of damage or so from weapon properties. (Yes, I double-checked and it says every dice; a shame, really, but excellent for weakness exploiting.) Similarly, Certain Strike can't be used with the Quickened condition, which is a pity. All that really does is give them a free Move, or a free non-special attack that could or could not work out so well.

Yes, Battleaxe/Hatchet is an awesome combination, perhaps perfect for the TWF niche, since if they are meant to excel at defeating low level enemies simultaneously, getting the bonuses to attacking different targets helps out a lot if they can defeat them in a couple quick strikes.

Again, I do agree that TWF has more potential, but the odds of reaching that potential are very slim. It's about the same odds as getting maximum damage on a top-level Fireball spell, or another spell with crazy amounts of damage dice. Hopeful, but realistically unlikely to happen compared to rolling less dice.

Yeah, I can't really disagree there in the current state of things. I think a lot of that is down to how dang STRONG Certain Strike is, which is kind of unfortunate. I love the concept of that feat, and the effectiveness of it, but with it's strength, especially with the Forceful cheese and how it DESTROYS anything with a weakness you can target (looking at you, Heroes of Undarin), it can often dwarf a lot of other press actions. Which is a shame because there are so many cool options that I think work so well but they're still dwarfed by CS (and the ubiquity of flat footed is one other issue but that's another discussion).

I would like to see our other options get buffed up to CS's level, and maybe see the cheese with CS nixed. Also if the final CRB loosens up the math as it's said to then a many-attack routine like this suddenly gets stronger. But the abilities we're using here may not even look the same in the final CRB so supposition there doesn't really work. XD

As a parting note, I would propose that it isn't just that TWF has more potential but is much less likely to reach that potential. That is true, but I'd argue it's more a matter of it requiring more work to bring out the full potential compared to THF. If you work to tip the numbers towards you then I think that TWF may well outstrip THF. But not all groups will do that. The group I took through the Playtest would have probably made a build like this work very well, even better than THF, because they were big on buffs, debuffs, and positioning. But the group I started running just a couple weeks ago seems to be more about pointing the sharp sticks at the enemy and going for it, I don't think they'd do so well with this build.

TL;DR, I agree with you but with the added caveat that TWF probably has a higher ceiling to be reached by more complex buff and debuff play compared to THF. Emphasis on probably, not definitely.


In terms of dice: some players want to roll lots of attacks, and that's fine. A tweak to the rules to make it easier to roll all those attacks simultaneously would be good, but it's hardly that time-consuming so long the player rapidly rerolls their D20 that many times, writes down the results, and then rolls damage the appropriate number of times until they either run out of attacks or the target dies (in which case the player can pretend they didn't roll the last few attacks and can choose to do with their remaining actions as they wish). Colored dice could help as well if you use them to keep track of the attacks' order.

Anything that would make it OK to literally dump a bag of D20's or click a single macro button in Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds and resolve the turn in one fell swoop would be welcome. It's a bit hard to do right now because the order each attack matters due to MAP and the three-acction economy - a feat that gave you lots of attacks at the same reduced MAP but used the rest of your actions that turn, no exceptions, would work well. Dice fall, s@&+ dies, order doesn't matter, turn is now over.

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