Upcoming Tyrant's Grasp campaign, we have four players and this is what is known at this time.
Aasimar Barbarian (Savage, Flesheater)
Half-elf Summoner (Spirit Summoner: Life)
Unknown race/archetype Hunter
Suggestions for 4th player?
From what I can see, the Summoner and Hunter will be providing a bit of Melee support with their pets. The Summoner has Arcane buffing and, because of their choice in spirit, healing on lockdown (she enjoys healing). The Hunter has access to the Druid list, though specializing it somehow would be ideal (she likes TWF and bows) The Barbarian is going an unusual route but seems solid with their Melee presence.
The 4th player tends to have a preference for Arcane gishes and monks.
For those interested: 15 point buy, background skills, fractional BAB/saves, no 3rd party.
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Bard, every day of the week.
The more bodies you have that benefit from Inspire Courage, the more powerful it is.
Here you have 5 bodies, it's pretty fantastic.
As for what type of Bard, several options sound good but anything that keeps Bardic Knowledge is more attractive, you need a guy who knows things.
Chronicler of Worlds Bard is a fun option too since it's INT based.
Magician to pick up some blasting spells (or Flame Dancer for fireballs) could also be good cause you need a way to blast through swarms.
Given it's Tyrant's Grasp, there's also a good argument to be made for a Dirge Bard, since they can affect undead with mind-affecting spells.
Silver Balladeer is also pretty great to fight undead.
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Bard is always a welcome addition in any group... unless you're playing with a bunch of Androids. I'm a big fan of the Arcane Duelist, myself.
Reach Cleric is useful for dealing with the undead. Pretty useful in most cases, actually. May not be the flavor the person is looking for, though.
Two levels of Sensei Monk before three levels of Evangelist Cleric before ten levels of the Evangelist Prestige Class (advancing your Cleric levels).
You get:
Advice 3+Wis per day, and
Sermonic Performance 3+Cha per day
Both of which are boosted by a single Extra Performance feat.
You also get Wisdom to AC, and attack with Monk weapons via Insightful Strike.
So you can use the Kusarigama, and still be a reach Cleric.
I feel Cleric is further away from Arcane Gish than Bard.
Well, we are just fishing for ideas on how YOU would balance out the party. Any suggestions are welcome, and the evangelist cleric with monk abilities might be something we could sell the 4th player on, if we can get a fireball on the spell list (Fire Domain?). The Arcane gish And monk comment was just to give you an idea on what is likely to appeal to him. Perhaps a cleric that channels negative energy so that it doesn't clash with the Summoner's abilities.
Appreciate the ideas so far. Don't hesitate to offer suggestions on what YOU would do with the Hunter either. The class is already settled but any archetypes or roles would be welcome. There is a warning in the player's guide to the campaign that companion animals would be unavailable for the first (part?) of the adventure... So let's not rely too heavily on the animal companion to start with.
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Here are some old comments about Evangelist Clerics. Magda Luckbender is a retired 11th level PFS Evangelist Cleric on the SLOW XP track.
Your Summoner ally will love your presence, as your buffs will magnify all Summons. Evangelists have the best buffs in the game. They make good martial combatants, especially with the Growth domain. Evangelist Clerics are terrific summoners - especially do this if your allied Summoner uses an eidolon. Evangelist clerics make lousy archers, though.
If you play a Cleric, or other full caster, avoid the dip trap. Dipping will seem like a good idea at the time, but you may regret gimping your full casting ability. Exceptions for specialized builds that really know what the want. E.g. I've seen a dwarf Cleric build where a Fighter dip really did seem like a good idea. Usually, though, it's a trap.
A Cleric can be a highly effective martial combatant, at all levels, with just light armor and simple weapons. When not buffed they are just so-so, but fully buffed all their combat attributes are quite strong. Feats not spent on fancy weapons and armor are available for other things.
You don't have a 9th level arcane or divine caster, so I would recommend Sorc, Arcanist, Wizard, Cleric, or Oracle. Hunter already has Druid spells so that would be redundant.
Also, Bard.
If your 4th player is truly married to gishes, Warpriest or Magus would do well. Maybe even a Paladin. Also, just like *Khan* said, Skald would be amazing; there’s a lot of allies to buff in a group with a Summoner and a Hunter.
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If you play a Cleric, or other full caster, avoid the dip trap. Dipping will seem like a good idea at the time, but you may regret gimping your full casting ability.
I'm going to echo this. In my current Kingmaker campaign I'm playing an Evangelist cleric, I went: Monk (unchained)-1/Cleric (Evangelist)-4/Evangelist (PrC)-X. The monk dip helped my BAB, gave me WIS to AC and some flavourful feats. It wasn't worth it. I had to wait till character level 7 to get 3rd level spells and that sweet +2 to hit/dmg from Inspire Courage. I'm still helping the party, but I'm way less good than I would have been if I'd just gone straight Cleric.
Sensei Monk gets you a lot of +1 Advice/Inspire Courage from the get-go. And you will forever have this +1 pool to use each day, even as your Evangelist Cleric Sermonic Performance/Inspire Courage scales and progresses... with less uses per day based on Charisma, not Wisdom like the Advice ability.
A second level of Sensei get Wisdom to attack with unarmed strikes and Monk weapons. And better saves from being a Monk. You can still use a reach weapon with Trip (the Kusarigama). Or go all out Bad Touch Cleric.
One trait makes up for both lost Caster Levels.
Taking Extra Performance one time gets you:
9+WIS Advice (stuck at +1, or +2)
9+CHA Sermonic Performance (scaling)
There are enough casters that your dip won't be missed... but all that Inspire Courage, all day, every day will always be appreciated.
Effective end result:
Monk 2/Cleric 3/Evangelist PrC 10/Monk 5...
Sensei Monk 12 (with Monk's Robes),
Evangelist Cleric 12
Evangelist PrC 10
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I'd like to briefly explain why Inspire Courage (whether Bard or the Evangelist Cleric archetype) and archery combine poorly. I've seen this combination done multiple ways, and it's never worked out well. Here's why:
* The primary benefit of archery is that the archer can Full Attack every round as long as a foe is visible, especially on the important first round of combat.
* Bard or Cleric with Inspire Courage should almost always do that on Round 1. That's your Standard Action until 7th character level, then your Move Action until 12th level or so - when you are due for retirement. So you never get to full attack on combat Round One.
* Your spell casting and special abilities (except for Swift Actions) always compete for your combat action. Each round you can either cast a spell or shoot. If you want to cast a spell at all in combat (you are a primary spellcaster!) then you must delay your archery until Round 3. At that point, why bother with archery?
Players who have tried this combination have consistently expressed frustration at their inability to apply effective archery on the important early rounds of combat. I've seen enough frustration with this approach that I now warn people against it.
Thanks for all the tips.
If the 4th player does select the Evangelist Cleric, I'm pretty sure he'll want to focus on blasting rather than archery. He might even opt for melee rather than ranged. I have yet to see him play a dedicated ranged character. Odds are he'll opt for negative channeling over positive, perhaps opting for the variant channeling.
Speaking of ranged, both the Hunter and the Summoner seem more inclined to be higher dex characters, so they will most likely be the ranged combatants of the group, leaving the companions and barbarian to handle the melee.
The Summoner has let me know that they are going to start with Selective Channeling and picking up Purifying Channel at 3rd level. Seems like a pretty good way to contribute to damage while you are healing.
Anyway, thoughts on the Hunter? Any archetypes get your attention? She wants to be good at archery while her animal focuses on melee.
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Cleric (Variant Channeling) archetype and Cleric (Evangelist) archetype are mutually exclusive, otherwise this obscene monstrosity [horrific OP build] would also be an Evangelist Cleric Flagbearer of the Banner of the Ancient Kings that buffed +6 to hit and +6 damage to all allies. Be careful with Variant Channeling, as it can easily trivialize encounters - please warn your GM and discuss it.
My favorite Variant Channeling is Earth. Combine this with the Travel Domain's Agile Feet and opponents are stuck in Difficult Terrain while you are unhindered. This can give your team considerable tactical advantage, especially if you pass out potions of Featherstep in advance. It's huge for reach builds, as foes are denied the 5' step. Duplicated by 2nd level Stone Call, which clerics can't access. Variant Channel (Earth) is relatively weak, rendering it much more sporting than the default Variant Channel (Rulership) of Archdevil Dispater or the most excellent Horus.
A warrior with that ability might even try to match Musashi Miyamoto's historic deep of surviving an ambush by 80 (80!!!) warriors through clever use of terrain.
My favorite variant channeling is via the worship of RA.
You get to Daze and light them on fire with your channels.
It's just nasty.
Just a straight up Cleric. Nothing special, but if possible I would suggest either aasimar or changeling for the race.
Blaster cleric? Generally speaking, this is a bad idea. Cleric offensive spells aren't as good as arcane spells, or even druid spells.
*shrug* The player likes what the player likes, and as long as it isn't BAD (rather than not-optimal, which is what I think you are trying to say), I won't dissuade them from taking what they want.
Channeling negative energy means positioning yourself to use it. With the large number of pets it also means getting away from the party so you don't nuke your allies. And if the AP has a lot of undead, then its also going to be an ability you can't use as reliably as positive energy. Well, unless the cleric plans on taking command undead.
Yes, it does mean positioning, and helps if Selective Channeling has been taken. The intent for taking negative channel was to mess with the undead.
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That's why Offensive Channel Clerics and Hangover Clerics want to be neutral and worship a neutral deity. The Versatile Channel feat, while uncommon, is perfect for such clerics. Channel to heal at full power, and also channel to harm when it's called for. Choose Positive as Primary and Negative as your Variant. Leverage all your channel feats to apply to both positive and negative channels.
A cleric who does this and also happens to select Cleric (Variant Channel [Earth:Negative to Harm]) archetype will find that everything works, both offensively and defensively, even without Selective Channel or high CHA. Most allies won't mind a little friendly fire damage in exchange for gaining a tactical advantage. Especially if you gave them Potions of Featherstep. Channel to both help your allies and to hinder your enemies. This tactical hangover Cleric build works with low CHA and costs only one feat.
P.s. This is the one case where I've ever seen a cleric Channel to Harm Living and willingly choose to take damage from it, without regret. In return for not exempting her location from becoming Difficult Terrain, which yielded more and better AoOs.
Well, best plans of mice and men ... Party composition has shifted due to the DM/GM stressing that companion creatures are not going to be a good idea in the game (first adventure really). So, here is the new layout:
Aasimar Barbarian (Savage, Flesheater)
Half-Elf Warpriest of Sarenrae (Calamity Caller)
Half-Elf Slayer
Human Necromancer Wizard
Barbarian is still the same and has the same role. The Warpriest is either going to be a switch-hitter but focused on Strength and Wisdom, since the Calamity doesn't require an attack roll. The Slayer and War-priest are going to be switch hitters, swapping in and out as the battle demands it.
The Necromancer? He's probably going to dabble in messing with the undead, mostly to disable them or turn them against each other briefly. Animating them won't go over well with the Good group.
Any suggestions on tactics or paths to focus them on?
Sounds like a pretty balanced party.
Their biggest challenge will be social tasks though.
Social tasks? Like Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy? Or do you mean knowledge checks? Ah, well, I suppose I didn't share much information about who's focusing on what skills.
Oddly enough, the Barbarian is going to ... have quite good mental stats and might even be able to serve as the party face. Weird, right? Bluff and Intimidate are key features for him, after all. The Warpriest will be picking up the Diplomacy. Between the Slayer and Wizard, we should have a decent range of knowledge skills and disable device.
what about traps? or are you going with the barbarian's trap-finding school?
what about traps? or are you going with the barbarian's trap-finding school?
The Slayer has the Disable Device skill set, and when the DCs are high enough, or we find a need for disabling magic traps, there is always the option for the Trapfinding Slayer Talent.
Was that a serious question?
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Skald !!!
Barbarian, Slayer and WarPriest are now str. based. (If the Barbarian goes unchained - he gets your bonus as well)
They properbly dont dump dex if they are going to be switch hitters or are using medium armor.
Pick up a reach weapon all 4 of you and combat reflexes.
If the skald picks up the bardic masterpiece: Battle Song of the People’s Revolt
and pick Paired Opportunists as your shared teamwork feat.
Start battles with activating your bardic master piece and after the enemies has closed up to you - switch over to the regular raging song.
Another option is the Exemplar Brawler. Bardic song instead of raging song. And share teamwork feats as a standard action.
what about traps? or are you going with the barbarian's trap-finding school?The Slayer has the Disable Device skill set, and when the DCs are high enough, or we find a need for disabling magic traps, there is always the option for the Trapfinding Slayer Talent.
Was that a serious question?
sure it was. i had been to more then one party wipe where the traps + tactics of the enemy employing the traps were th cuase.
i did try to lighten the mood with the joke in the end. that bit wssn't serious ;)
Skald !!!
Barbarian, Slayer and WarPriest are now str. based. (If the Barbarian goes unchained - he gets your bonus as well)
Nope, you can only benefit from one type of rage at a time. What the boni look like is irrelevant.
@zza ni: Everyone can find traps. But yeah, Slayer can get Trapfinding via talent, and the Wizard could cast Aram Zey's Focus. I don't think needing to actually disable magical traps (and not just have a Mount or Summoned Monster run into it, or bypass it with other spells) is a common occurance, though.
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Nope, you can only benefit from one type of rage at a time. What the boni look like is irrelevant.Skald !!!
Barbarian, Slayer and WarPriest are now str. based. (If the Barbarian goes unchained - he gets your bonus as well)
Hmm you are right. But does that also count Spell Warrior Skald’s “Enhance Weapons”? Is it still a rage effect?
The FAQ says "a skald’s raging song" (and not "inspire rage"), which means it applies to every raging song, period. Yes, that means a raging Barbarian can chose to not be affected by an enemy's Dirge of Doom; and can't rage during Song of the Fallen without instantly dying.
Well, best plans of mice and men ... Party composition has shifted due to the DM/GM stressing that companion creatures are not going to be a good idea in the game (first adventure really). So, here is the new layout:
Aasimar Barbarian (Savage, Flesheater)
Half-Elf Warpriest of Sarenrae (Calamity Caller)
Half-Elf Slayer
Human Necromancer WizardBarbarian is still the same and has the same role. The Warpriest is either going to be a switch-hitter but focused on Strength and Wisdom, since the Calamity doesn't require an attack roll. The Slayer and War-priest are going to be switch hitters, swapping in and out as the battle demands it.
The Necromancer? He's probably going to dabble in messing with the undead, mostly to disable them or turn them against each other briefly. Animating them won't go over well with the Good group.
Any suggestions on tactics or paths to focus them on?
Aasimar barbarian isn't simply inappropriate given the class, but also in attributes. Yeah, there's one variant that grants a bonus to Strength, but none that grants anything to Dexterity, Constitution, or even Wisdom as well. Normally, I point out Orcs (but I like to grant Endurance feat and negate the Wisdom penalty to balance the race out), Oreads, Hobgoblin, Trox, Ogres, Lizardfolk, Gnoll, Dhampir (nosferatu, but only for having a lot of negative energy present and the Strength and skills bonuses), Tiefling (demodand spawn.
Half elves are pretty much useless in game, they take the one advantage or two humans have and ruin it. Again, I suggest a standard aasimar or changeling for Clerics.
Humans are okay for Wizards, but to be frank they have problems with vision and aren't particularly great for the class. I'd go for a Elf, or a Peri Blooded aasimar as it grants bonuses to both Intelligence and Charisma (great for undead). Maybe a Sylph, as Dex and Int are a great combination for Wizards in general (in that case, there's lots of races that work with that combo).
Also, since skeletons and zombies are basically automatons/cheap golems, can't reproduce, and are unintelligent, I wouldn't regard their creation to be Evil. More unlawful than anything, since you're just using the bodies and the souls aren't even involved.
Aasimar barbarian isn't simply inappropriate given the class, but also in attributes. Yeah, there's one variant that grants a bonus to Strength, but none that grants anything to Dexterity, Constitution, or even Wisdom as well. Normally, I point out Orcs (but I like to grant Endurance feat and negate the Wisdom penalty to balance the race out), Oreads, Hobgoblin, Trox, Ogres, Lizardfolk, Gnoll, Dhampir (nosferatu, but only for having a lot of negative energy present and the Strength and skills bonuses), Tiefling (demodand spawn.
Half elves are pretty much useless in game, they take the one advantage or two humans have and ruin it. Again, I suggest a standard aasimar or changeling for Clerics.
Humans are okay for Wizards, but to be frank they have problems with vision and aren't particularly great for the class. I'd go for a Elf, or a Peri Blooded aasimar as it grants bonuses to both Intelligence and Charisma (great for undead). Maybe a Sylph, as Dex and Int are a great combination for Wizards in general (in that case, there's lots of races that work with that combo).
I certainly appreciate the tips for the races. However, the races were not chosen simply for their ability score bonuses to the key scores of their classes. The Aasimar was chosen for the native lifespan, the ability to be treated as human, and the bonuses to the mental stats. The half-elf was chosen as a descendant of the Aasimar (give or take three generations) and to meet the requirements of the archetype for Warpriest. The hunter chose the half-elf to cherry pick a few abilities that would compliment the Slayer class and the Necromancer simply wanted the bonus feat.
In addition to all that, no one really wanted to play an more exotic race and tends to avoid using races that would be a hindrance in the local setting. I am not saying other races would have be an overly big issue, but we have our preferences. Mostly, the advice sought for this thread was more along the lines of feats, tactics, and other options that might be available. Races and classes have already been determined.
Also, since skeletons and zombies are basically automatons/cheap golems, can't reproduce, and are unintelligent, I wouldn't regard their creation to be Evil. More unlawful than anything, since you're just using the bodies and the souls aren't even involved.
You might not consider undead to be Evil, but that is not how the base game is designed nor is it how our table handles the issue. You are free to houserule as you wish.
Barbarian as a party face?! Oh hell no. Get serious.
As for half elves being an idea for a descendant of aasimar, heck no. You can sort of mimic the idea of a descendant using a standard human and then try ancestry feats to reflect the idea.
As for the necromancer, the bonus feat just isn't a good enough compensation for all the problems standard humans present. Lots of times for example, the vision lack really screws you over. Also, not having bonuses to both Charisma and Intelligence hurts when mucking about with undead control. Also, with a human you most likely will have a crappy Dexterity (always a great thing to have a high dex when playing a wizard). Rooting about in graves kinda necessitates good night vision.
Really, I don't find the extra human feat all that great in the long run. In the short run it's wonderful, but you give up too much. The only thing I would love a human for is getting LOTS of skill points (+2 Int and the human bonus skill point per level).
As for the other races I suggested, Sylphs etc can easily fit in for looking human, particularly if they bother with Disguise.
Personally, I have been watching my players try to take out traps and things, and have noticed something. They don't always recall to say "I check for traps" and so get nailed. This is why I keep recommending the rogue talent Trap Spotter. That way whenever they get within 10ft of a trap, they ALWAYS get a Perception roll (but I am the one who makes it so as not to give it away).
As for undead and being evil, I note that you have to INTEND to do harm to be evil. Lots of neutral creatures like fire elementals cause immense destruction and get away with it, but they burn things because it's their nature. Evil does it just to be sadistic. Unintelligent undead don't get anything out of hurting others, and if they don't do anything unless commanded, it's a moot point as to alignment since they are nothing more than golems.
Overall, Scott here has a big point. Too much melee, and almost no artillery.
I’d probably go with an evangelist cleric. You can buff the party very well and do some backup healing if needed.
Out of curiosity, what character was created for Tyrant’s Grasp?
The Aasimar Barbarian was created to tie very deeply into the history and background of the campaign. Due to his advanced age, he was around when things were quite interesting and some of the events that are important to the campaign were still relatively fresh in the collective memory of the population.
Barbarian as a party face?! Oh hell no. Get serious.
You have no specifics on the character aside from the race and the class, and you tell me to get serious? All it takes is a decent charisma score, a feat (or magic item), and allocating ranks into the face skills (bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate) in order to be the party face. If you want to 'get serious', perhaps you should ask how the barbarian is going to be the party face rather than dismiss it out of hand.
As for half elves being an idea for a descendant of aasimar, heck no. You can sort of mimic the idea of a descendant using a standard human and then try ancestry feats to reflect the idea.
Really? An Aasimar that counts as human for all intents and purposes, the lore that they do not breed true (rather it is a manifestation of their distant celestial blood that awakens their heritage, since they can be born to humans or other races), and that it is entirely possible that one of his HUMAN descendant (or himself) married and bred with an elf? Are you quite serious?
As for the necromancer, the bonus feat just isn't a good enough compensation for all the problems standard humans present. Lots of times for example, the vision lack really screws you over. Also, not having bonuses to both Charisma and Intelligence hurts when mucking about with undead control. Also, with a human you most likely will have a crappy Dexterity (always a great thing to have a high dex when playing a wizard). Rooting about in graves kinda necessitates good night vision.
All of the issues you brought up are concerns, if not major ones. People can use torches and light cantrips. People can have average stats. Adventurers can have an average stat or two and succeed (the game is actually designed with that in mind). Is you problem more with the characters not conforming to your interpretation of how the game is supposed to me played or do you have a legitimate concern?
As for the other races I suggested, Sylphs etc can easily fit in for looking human, particularly if they bother with Disguise.
As stated, no one wants to play an 'exotic' race.
As for undead and being evil, I note that you have to INTEND to do harm to be evil. Lots of neutral creatures like fire elementals cause immense destruction and get away with it, but they burn things because it's their nature. Evil does it just to be sadistic. Unintelligent undead don't get anything out of hurting others, and if they don't do anything unless commanded, it's a moot point as to alignment since they are nothing more than golems.
You can play however you want. Tampering with the forces of nature that are an anathema to life has been seen as 'playing with evil' and in the default setting, it is quite evil to intentionally create creatures that are undeniably evil (ping! detect evil) and would be evil should you lose control of them. Zombies won't just 'stand still' and not attack a living creature unless they were given explicit orders not to. The power holding them back disappears and you get to see their true nature.
The Hallowed Necromancer wizard archetype might be of interest. Also, is your group ignoring the errata that lowers aasimar lifespan to match human?
Barbarians don't come with Diplomacy or Bluff. On top of that, Charisma is not a priority for the class, indeed, it's usually a dump stat.
The idea that an aasimar way back when bred with an elf is injecting MORE special races into the mix, did you notice? It would therefore make more sense just to blow a feat or two on mimicking a partially angelic being.
This might surprise you, but when sneaking about in the dark, it's pretty easy to be spotted when you are holding a torch, a cantrip, or any source of light. Ever spotted a cigarette from miles away in the dark?
Too late. You already have lots of exotic races in your campaign.
That's funny, it's not how the bestiary description works out for zombies. Or just make a skeleton. They don't do much when not directly being controlled. They just follow their previous orders. The default setting doesn't make sense, and you know it.
Again I reiterate, you need some sort of intelligence or intent to be evil. I do have a degree in psychology, and most of humanity is basically neutral in that department.
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This thread isn't really the place for it, but most undead are simply magically evil. Ethics has nothing to do with it. They are evil, because evil is a tangible physical property in that world. You can argue that that's an odd design choice for that fantasy world, but it is what it is.
The Hallowed Necromancer wizard archetype might be of interest. Also, is your group ignoring the errata that lowers aasimar lifespan to match human?
If there is errata, we are unaware of it. We will not be using it, most likely.
Barbarians don't come with Diplomacy or Bluff. On top of that, Charisma is not a priority for the class, indeed, it's usually a dump stat.
And? There are numerous ways to get those skills as class skills and ways to build barbarians that utilize charisma. Is your problem with the concept of a face barbarian or would you like some instruction on the mechanics?
The idea that an aasimar way back when bred with an elf is injecting MORE special races into the mix, did you notice? It would therefore make more sense just to blow a feat or two on mimicking a partially angelic being.
The issue was playing EXOTIC races. Having a special heritage that plays no special role outside of roleplay, and impacts the mechanics in no measurable way seems to be completely harmless. I am fine with exotic races but no one wants to play one in this game. Is there an issue you have with it?
That's funny, it's not how the bestiary description works out for zombies. Or just make a skeleton. They don't do much when not directly being controlled. They just follow their previous orders. The default setting doesn't make sense, and you know it.
Mindless undead are not inactive and can often spontaneously occur. Their default setting is 'evil' and 'kill'. You are speaking of moral evil when you talk of intent. Evil is much more than just that in the default Pathfinder setting. It is a force/law of nature.