HOW DOES THE WEAPON CHAMPION'S FAVORED WEAPONS FEATURE INTERACT WITH THE DAISHO EXPERTISE FEAT?


Advice and Rules Questions


The Daisho Expertise feat from Path of War says:

"Prerequisites: Proficiency with the katana or wakizashi.

Benefit: Increase the damage die of katanas and wakizashi you wield by one die step. In addition, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier when making attack rolls with either weapon. This feat counts as Weapon Finesse for purposes of meeting the prerequisites of other feats.

Special: If you are proficient with the katana as a martial weapon, you meet the prerequisites for this feat, although you only gain its benefit while wielding a katana in two hands (to gain these benefits while wielding the katana in one hand, you must possess Exotic Weapon Proficiency with the weapon). You must possess Exotic Weapon Proficiency with the wakizashi to gain the benefits of this feat with a wakizashi."

And the Weapon Champion Archetype has the Favored Weapons (Ex) feature:

"At first level the weapon champion selects a group of weapons (from the fighter’s list of weapon groups for the weapon training ability) to act as her favored weapons. She is proficient with all these weapons. If the weapon champion has a feat that applies to one of these weapons (such as Weapon Focus), it applies to all the weapons in the group."

The wakizashi belongs in the light blade group.

Does the Weapon Champion's 1st-level feature now make all light blades use the Dex stat to hit and treat them as one die higher for damage?

Because as far as I can see, it the wakizashi fulfills 2 criteria, it belongs to the light blades group and is part weapon-specific feat that can apply to the shared weapon group.


Yes, however, increase the damage dice of a light weapon in one category is almost the same as +1 damage bonus.


LOUD NOISES!

Liberty's Edge

WOW! THOSE WERE A LOT OF CAPS !!!!!
IS SOMEONE ANGRY, OR JUST YELLING REALLY LOUD!?!?!


My bad for the question in all cap. I just cut pasted it form another forum I posted the question and didnt bother to edit. Sorry


Dumb question but kinda relating to daisho expertise... Is daisho expertise overpowered in any way?

1: Even though increasing dice steps technically don't actually mean anything in PF, part of me can't help but think that having a 1d8 18-20x2 light weapon, and a 1d10 18-20x2 weapon for just a feat seems a bit broken (Bastard sword already has been bullied enough, don't bully it even more)...
2: But I also like the idea that katana proficient characters can pay a feat for the chance to make it finesseable, since it seems like a relative happy medium (instead of just giving it finesse 100% of the time making it literally better than things like the taldori duelling sword and hell straight up better than the wakizashi in many situations, or saying "No you can never have finesse on it ever")


<Reading up on feat>

Whomever wrote it certainly prefers to indulge the myth of superior Japanese weaponry....


Slim Jim wrote:

<Reading up on feat>

Whomever wrote it certainly prefers to indulge the myth of superior Japanese weaponry....

Yeah I can see it.. And seeing as (at least as far as I can remember) it's from the spiritual successor to the book of weeaboo fightan magic. I can definitely see whoever wrote it really wanted to go by that angle of powerful katana wielders.. But I also know so many people complained about the katana not being finesseable, and a feat that lets you do so seems relatively fair. unless you're a ninja or a samurai (or any other class with katana proficiency but I think those are the only first party classes) you already had to pay a feat or equivalent for the right to use a katana at all, then you need to get Weapon Finesse to use weapons in general with finesse, and then you'd need to buy whatever equivalent to dash expertise you wanted. meaning you're in 3 feats (2 if you're a samurai or ninja, or technically any spheremighter with the Bushido Training talent.) for the right to use a katana with finesse. I don't really think that feat taxes are the best way to balance thing, but it works in this case...

Or if you can get your GM to use a TOTALLY DIFFERENT EQUIPMENT SYSTEM you could use something like Kirthfinder's equipment system, where you get exotic proficiency with certain weapons rather than proficiency with exotic weapons, and Longsword gains 18-20x2 with finesse, and Bastard Sword gives you the ability to hold it in one hand, but also gets the ability to wield it in 2 hands for 1d10 18-20x2 finesse for your 2 handed katana needs.)


Warriorking9001 wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
Whomever wrote it certainly prefers to indulge the myth of superior Japanese weaponry....
Yeah I can see it.. And seeing as (at least as far as I can remember) it's from the spiritual successor to the book of weeaboo fightan magic. I can definitely see whoever wrote it really wanted to go by that angle of powerful katana wielders.. But I also know so many people complained about the katana not being finesseable....

Well it shouldn't be. It's a big ol' honkin' sword that actually weighs a few ounces more than a longsword when "sized appropriately" to a real person, and is actually more cumbersome to use due to its mass and offensive utility is not being distributed symmetrically across its curved, single-edge blade.

(Historical samurai prized archery as their primary combat ability, and their sword was used for two-handed gruntwork after the arrows were exhausted. Finessible katanas are a product of Chanbara movie-magic.)


Slim Jim wrote:
Well it shouldn't be. It's a big ol' honkin' sword that actually weighs a few ounces more than a longsword when "sized appropriately" to a real person, and is actually more cumbersome to use due to its mass and offensive utility is not being distributed symmetrically across its curved, single-edge blade.

I'd say that there are a few major problems that cause so many of the assumptions in Pathfinder specifically and makes people want finesseable katanas.

1: Historical Issues: A "Wakizashi" in pathfinder brings to mind something more akin to the Kodachi (Basically the closest real life thing to a "Ninja Sword" that was used. they were short and easily concealed but not so short that they would be under the Dagger purview in PF). They were also used by travelers because they were short enough to be carried legally by non-samurai. (Or at least it brings that to my mind). Though the Wakizashi does also tent do by between 30 and 60 CM whilst the kodachi is anywhere less than 60 cm. (or about 23 inches). and Katanas as mentioned were generally used 2 handed as a backup for the horse archer samurai.

2: The Game Itself:
Ninjas in pathfinder are proficient with the katana, and as such ninja players get kind of annoyed that they can't use it without gimping themselves by actually needing Strength. (Having mentioned Kirthfinder before I think they actually handled it well, they're considered Bastard Swords, but Bastard Swords gain a finesseable 2 handed option with exotic proficiency)
Every character that's going to use the Katana in pathfinder is going to use it in one hand (Even PF Samurai can use it in one hand even though they have no reason to Irl since they don't use shields) since any character that can use a Katana in 2 hands would just use a Falchion instead.

3: The Fiction
As mentioned, Fantasy Fiction has implied this sort of idea of katanas being this precise elegant weapon, and even Kendo reinforces this to an extent even though technically the Longsword would be quicker from symmetry.. But this also has the issue that we mislabel swords all the time (Like what would be a Longsword IRL is called a Greatsword, and both forms are assumed to be way slower and more cumbersome than they actually are).


Warriorking9001 wrote:
Every character that's going to use the Katana in pathfinder is going to use it in one hand (Even PF Samurai can use it in one hand even though they have no reason to Irl since they don't use shields) since any character that can use a Katana in 2 hands would just use a Falchion instead.

The problem with the PF falchion is that it is explicitly a two-handed weapon, denying its use in a grapple. The katana is also permissive of a shield bonus to AC while TWFing with Kat+Wak with only the Wak eating a -1 to its attacks. And since, like the falchion, it has an extended threat-range, the benefits to a strong build from 2hPA crit-fishing (e.g., the Samurai's "Weapon Expertise" class ability) are there.


Slim Jim wrote:
The problem with the PF falchion is that it is explicitly a two-handed weapon, denying its use in a grapple. The katana is also permissive of a shield bonus to AC while TWFing with Kat+Wak with only the Wak eating a -1 to its attacks. And since, like the falchion, it has an extended threat-range, the benefits to a strong build from 2hPA crit-fishing (e.g., the Samurai's "Weapon Expertise" class ability) are there.

1: I will confess I honestly never thought of the whole "Explicitly 2 handed vs one handed that you can hold in both hands" thing since short of getting your hand chopped off what would really stop you from using just one hand?

2: At least those trying to go for smart mechanics rather that the fluff beauty of the daisho (which I do appreciate) will probably go for dual wakizashis if they're going to two weapon fight. So I just kinda totally forgot about the concept of daisho entirely, but thank you for this.
3: I'd think those that can get eastern weapons and wanted to 2 hand would just use a nodachi.


Warriorking9001 wrote:
I will confess I honestly never thought of the whole "Explicitly 2 handed vs one handed that you can hold in both hands" thing since short of getting your hand chopped off what would really stop you from using just one hand?

"Grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform." (If you;re "all in" with a two-hander, you'll have some problems in certain situations.)


Slim Jim wrote:
Warriorking9001 wrote:
I will confess I honestly never thought of the whole "Explicitly 2 handed vs one handed that you can hold in both hands" thing since short of getting your hand chopped off what would really stop you from using just one hand?
"Grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform." (If you;re "all in" with a two-hander, you'll have some problems in certain situations.)

Oh. I didn't know this... Though I thought you could only attack with a light weapon if you're grappled anyway.

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