Flanking with yourself and jank


Rules Questions


So I'm here to ask how Dimensional Dervish and Outflank work together, or if they do. Dimensional dervish allows me to flank with myself when using my Dimensional feats while outflank says if your flanking with someone who also has this feat and they score a critical hit you get an AoO on that same target. If I were to crit a target I am considered flanking with Dimensional dervish would I then get an AoO on that same creature?


Outflank is a Teamwork feat. The intention is that it requires someone else to function.

While Dimensional Dervish lets you flank with yourself, I don't think it will let you just gives AoOs to yourself.


I have to agree with Claxon on this. There are a lot of teamwork feats that would then work without another person. For example if a person had Escape Route they would no longer provoke attacks of opportunity for moving even while alone.

Grand Lodge

There would also be the need to benefit from teamwork feats even without anyone else physically (Fighter's Tactics or Solo Tactics' Inquisitor). Even then, I don't know


out flank wrote:


Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally

I call shenanigans. Unless an ability explicitly calls it out, you can't fulfill the criterion for two desperate2 roles on one skill just because it explicitly calls out doing so on a different one. The only reasonable exception would be if the ability you wanted to use it with was a prerequisite for the named ability.


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I want to give a decent answer, but in my head Billy Idol is singing "flanking with myself"...

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Okay, I think I'm over it.

Okay, so Dimensional Savant (not Dervish) explicitly lets you flank with yourself. And the person you're flanking with has Outflank. So... I have no RAW.

However, if GMing I think I would rule it doesn't. Because, if you go to position X and attack, then to position Y and attack, you're no longer on position X. So while your foe might be distracted by you being on X (and hence give you a flanking bonus), the fact that you crit while you were at X didn't allow you to AoO from Y, because you weren't on Y when the crit happened. Similarly, if you crit from position Y, there is no flanking partner still on position X to take advantage of the opportunity thereby presented. At the time when the crit happens, you are not in position to take advantage with an AoO.


There was already debate about if you qualify to use a teamwork feat by yourself, I believe Scott Whilhem was the major proponent tilting at that windmill while most other people said that a major part of teamwork feats is that they require someone besides yourself to use. His argument was that you count as your own ally, but most people seemed to agree that it didn't apply.

FAQ CRB wrote:

Ally: Do you count as your own ally?

You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."

Most people agreed that it falls under "makes no sense". Teamwork feats require a team. You are not a team by yourself, and directly undermines that point of Teamwork feats (multiple people being required to use it).

If you had an ability like Solo Tactics from Inquisitor levels I might have to reevaluate things more carefully, but IMO absolutely not, you don't get to use a teamwork feat by yourself.


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Claxon wrote:

There was already debate about if you qualify to use a teamwork feat by yourself, I believe Scott Whilhem was the major proponent tilting at that windmill while most other people said that a major part of teamwork feats is that they require someone besides yourself to use. His argument was that you count as your own ally, but most people seemed to agree that it didn't apply.

FAQ CRB wrote:

Ally: Do you count as your own ally?

You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."

Most people agreed that it falls under "makes no sense". Teamwork feats require a team. You are not a team by yourself, and directly undermines that point of Teamwork feats (multiple people being required to use it).

If you had an ability like Solo Tactics from Inquisitor levels I might have to reevaluate things more carefully, but IMO absolutely not, you don't get to use a teamwork feat by yourself.

I am NOT tilting at windmills! I am pointing out that the Emperor is naked! Live in denial all you want, everybody. The Emperor is still naked. It doesn't matter how many people believe it or not. I am reporting in good faith on what the rules say.

The rest of my argument to what:

Claxon wrote:
Teamwork feats require a team.

The Teamwork Feats rules don't actually say that. They only say that you need a team "in most cases." That means without some other official rules source, you can't just say that because a Feat is a Teamwork Feat is "it makes no sense or is impossible" for you to count as your own ally, and nobody who has ever engaged in this discussion with me has ever been able to find an official rules source that states anything like that regarding Teamwork Feats. The closest thing that anyone ever found was an implication to that effect in the Optional Combat Stamina rules. But there is no reason to suppose that that interpreted implication is not as optional as the rest of the Combat Stamina Rules.

I never considered using it for Outflank, only for Broken Wing Gambit. Per RAW, I say each Feat needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis.


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:


I am NOT tilting at windmills! I am pointing out that the Emperor is naked! Live in denial all you want, everybody. The Emperor is still naked. It doesn't matter how many people believe it or not. I am reporting in good faith on what the rules say.

I for one appreciate it, and if we ever meet in real life I'll put a dollar in your cup.


I wrote:
I never considered using it for Outflank, only for Broken Wing Gambit. Per RAW, I say each Feat needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis.

So, let's consider this case.

Outflank wrote:
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature,
FAQ, via Claxon's post wrote:

Ally: Do you count as your own ally?

You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."

For starters, it does not logically follow that if "your allies" counts as "you and your allies," then "you and your allies" necessarily counts as "you."

In the text of Outflank, it doesn't say "your allies" anywhere. It says "an ally." You can't do the word substitution because the word you substitute is not there. 2 Allies are required. And you don't get an AoO yourself: only your Flanking Ally.

Claxon wrote:
If you had an ability like Solo Tactics from Inquisitor levels I might have to reevaluate things more carefully, but IMO absolutely not, you don't get to use a teamwork feat by yourself.

I don't think that would simply work. You would still need a Flanking buddy, and you would need Paired Opportunist for you to get the AoO. That being said, 3 levels in Inquisitor to exploit Teamwork Feats is a dynamite feature to put into any build, and it would be totally worth it. Use like twin Kukris. Put Bane on one or both of them. Take Crit Focus and Improved Crit. Take BWG, too!


So what the general consensus is no due to most believing that 1 it's not feasible (which I disagree with) and 2 that when teamwork feats say an ally you cant count as your own, even though allies are considered you and other party members/people whom are on your side?


The general consensus is that teamwork feats require a teammate. And that while you count as your own ally you must make it feasible to do so, such as casting a spell on an "ally" not for teamwork feats. Indeed an FAQ response tells us as much, which is why its the general consensus.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You can count as your ally. You can't count as both you and your ally at the same time, you are still just one person.

That said, in the very specific case of dimensional dervish, I would personally at least consider a houserule to allow it to work.


Darc1396 wrote:

So what the general consensus is no due to most believing that 1 it's not feasible (which I disagree with) and 2 that when teamwork feats say an ally you cant count as your own, even though allies are considered you and other party members/people whom are on your side?

The argument is that it's not feasible because teamwork feats require two people to function.

It's not a 1 & 2. It's all one connected thing. It has nothing to do with whether or not you count as your own ally. It has everything to do with teamwork feats requiring someone else to have the feat.


At least, so Sayth the faux King of England.


Teamwork feats state

Quote:


In most cases, these feats require an ally who also possesses the feat...

If you have a sandwich, do you also have a sandwich? That's a pretty nonsensical question.

Or: in order for X you must have a sandwich and you also must have a sandwich. Again nonsensical.

It would make sense for: you must have a sandwich and you also need a friend (ally) who has a sandwich.


Darc1396 wrote:
If I were to crit a target I am considered flanking with Dimensional dervish would I then get an AoO on that same creature?

Absolutely not.

Outflank wrote:

Outflank (Combat, Teamwork)

You look for every edge when flanking an enemy.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.

Dimensional Savant wrote:

Dimensional Savant

You flash into and out of reality so quickly it is impossible to tell exactly where you are at any given time.

Prerequisites: Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, Dimensional Dervish, ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, base attack bonus +9.

Benefit: While using the Dimensional Dervish feat, you provide flanking from all squares you attack from. Flanking starts from the moment you make an attack until the start of your next turn. You can effectively flank with yourself and with multiple allies when using this feat.

So you can still flank with yourself as normal per Dimensional Savant, but it requires an ally with the same feat in order for you to provoke an AO for your ally per the Outflank feat. So, here's my advice: you can bring an ally with you when you dimension door, so bring your Outflank ally with you and go nuts.

Grand Lodge

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

The Teamwork Feats rules don't actually say that. They only say that you need a team "in most cases."

If you actually stop and apply the rules in order of most general to most specific, you get this breakdown:

1) You generally count as your own ally.
2) Most teamwork feats require an ally who also has this feat to be carefully positioned on the battlefield.
3) Specific teamwork feat may override #2.

You are applying the more general rule regarding who counts as an ally to override the more specific rule that you need another team-member who also has the feat. In the absence of contrary entries in the specific feat description, the more specific rule of teamwork feats require an ally who also has the feat, ie at least 2 people, holds.


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The keyword that everyone seems to be ignoring is and. Whether you count as your own ally is beside the point the word and indicates an additional person is required. While the general rule of teamwork feats may not explicitly call for an additional person Outflank does.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
The keyword that everyone seems to be ignoring is and. Whether you count as your own ally is beside the point the word and indicates an additional person is required. While the general rule of teamwork feats may not explicitly call for an additional person Outflank does.

I addressed this in my post.


It seems to me the problem is the view that generally you need multiple people for teamwork feats to function. So anything that messes with that view even if it's technically raw is seen as bad. Much like how ability stacking was allowed until people started discussing about it and Paizo said it didnt.

In this case Paizo has said you count as your ally and teamwork feats say you need an ally in a specific position to gain a benefit. Dimensional Savant let's you get in the specific position, you count as your ally, the remain question is do you always need a different creature for teamwork feat?

To that we have at least 2 abilities that allows you to get teamwork feat benefits without other players having the feat, but they must be in the correct position.

*************
What trully makes me believe it does not work is the gang up feat, which would allow you to always flank if you dont need 2 characters for teamwork feats.


Temperans wrote:
What trully makes me believe it does not work is the gang up feat, which would allow you to always flank if you dont need 2 characters for teamwork feats.

Gangup isn't the only one that would do that if you only needed yourself to qualify.

Blood for the Empire (would just grant a flat bonus when you attack someone you've already attacked)

Cooperative Rend (would let you rend with just one claw hit)

Volley Fire (see blood for the empire, same thing)

Target of Opportunity (would let you get an extra attack when you attack an enemy within 30feet)

IMO Target of Opportunity is a stronger argument that teamwork feats require 2 people. Otherwise every archer ever would take Target of Opportunity because extra attack.

I'm sure there's others.


Jared Walter 356 wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

The Teamwork Feats rules don't actually say that. They only say that you need a team "in most cases."

If you actually stop and apply the rules in order of most general to most specific, you get this breakdown:

1) You generally count as your own ally.
2) Most teamwork feats require an ally who also has this feat to be carefully positioned on the battlefield.
3) Specific teamwork feat may override #2.

You are applying the more general rule regarding who counts as an ally to override the more specific rule that you need another team-member who also has the feat. In the absence of contrary entries in the specific feat description, the more specific rule of teamwork feats require an ally who also has the feat, ie at least 2 people, holds.

I actually addressed this already in my post immediately following the one you quoted. The specific language of the Outflank Feat requires 2 people, and that is something I explored in detail. The FAQ says "your allies is the same thing as you and your allies," but that does not mean that "you and your allies" is the same thing as "you." Dimensional Dervish awesomely lets you be your own Flanking buddy, but it doesn't make you 2 people.

I already went into great detail about how Outflank works with Dimensional Dervish, and have given advice on how use Outflank when your Allies don't have it.

But, in general, yes, I agree.
1) You generally count as your own ally
2) Most Teamwork Feats--according to the Teamwork Feats Description--require allies who have the Feat, so for most Teamwork Feats, it "would be otherwise state, make no sense, or be impossible" for you to count as your own ally.
3) Specific Teamwork Feat may override #2.

and I think we agree that we may add a #4.

4) The Outflank Feat is not one of those "override" Feats.


Darc1396, Claxon, Cavall, Temperans, bbangerter, and Lord Kailas, I think, in fact, I am confident that it would be drerailing to the thread to expand this discussion of Outflank to include each, every, and all Teamwork Feats. We all know how such a discussion would go, because we have had this discussion already and a lot.

If you want to have that discussion again, we should have it on another thread. Make a new thread or necro an old one, and I will happily engage in a civilized debate with you for as long as you are capable of being civil.

Link to it here or message me or something.

And bbangerter,

You are your own sandwich. But sometimes a sandwich needs another sandwich. A Sandwich Club, so to speak. When you have another sandwich allied with you, you go from being just a Hero [that] Ain't Nothing but a Sandwich to actually being the Big Mac!

God save King Mark!
Long live the Naked Emperor!
Die windmill, DIE!

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