Shifter weretouched


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

Does a weretouched shifter get the nautural attacks of an aspect at 4th or when the aspect stated it is received?

For example, weretouched frog. Does the character get the tongue grab at 4th or at 8th per the aspect?


Shifters gain natural attacks for an aspect at the level specified in the aspect, the Weretouched archetype does not change this.


By very literal RAW the answer is both, but that way lies madness. RAW, as a polymorph effect, a Shifter's Wild Shape (Lycanthropic or vanilla) grants all the natural attacks the target form has, because that's what the polymorph rules say. Shifter's Wild Shape then also grants the listed natural attacks, so you'd get them twice. The same would be true for Form of the Dragon, Undead Anatomy, and Ooze Form.

In practice, you get the natural attack which and when the major form description says, because the major forms are supposed to override the polymorph rules.

Liberty's Edge

Is there a ruling from Paizo or actual rule that supports this?

Hero Labs allows the tongue at 4th. I know Hero Labs is not official but a lot of people use it.

Is this a good candidate for a FAQ?


"While in a hybrid form, she gain a +2 size bonus to her Strength score, a +2 natural armor bonus to her AC, and all of the natural attacks and abilities listed by her major form." Emphasis mine. At 4th level, the natural attack(s) listed by the frog major form is only the bite.

There hasn't been an FAQ in over 19 months, and quite frankly, this wouldn't be FAQ'd anyway. The whole concept of the Shifter's wild shape is that you don't browse Bestiaries or something, but that the ability says what you get. Weretouched explicitly references the major form system.

Seriously, apart from the issue I mentioned in my first post, there is no ambiguity.

Liberty's Edge

I don't disagree with you. But my player is going to say "the tongue is a natural attack and it says I get all natural attacks."


Gary Bush wrote:
I don't disagree with you. But my player is going to say "the tongue is a natural attack and it says I get all natural attacks."

Then you tell them: "No, it does not, learn to read. It says 'all of the natural attacks and abilities [b]listed by her major form[b]'. At 4th level, the tongue is not listed."

Grand Lodge

Ok, to play "devil's advocate"
Does the archetype change anything if it's listed slightly different?
i.e. (emphasis mine)
Lycranthropic Wild Shape
At 4th level, when a weretouched uses wild shape, she can assume only the form of an animal of the same type as her lycanthrope aspect. However, instead of assuming a major form, she can assume a hybrid form that mixes the traits of her natural form and the major form of her aspect. While in a hybrid form, she gain a +2 size bonus to her Strength score, a +2 natural armor bonus to her AC, and all of the natural attacks and abilities listed by her major form.

So they don't technically take their major form, but a hybrid that ALL the natural attacks and abilities listed by her major form.
*note* this does not say "at the stated level"
It says nothing about the abilities (i.e. pounce, powerful charge, etc...) JUST the attacks themselves.


The level requirement is part of the list...

Look, I've already established that we can't really use ultra-strict RAW. If we do, Deinonychus ends up with 11 natural attacks (and pounce). And that's before the multiclassign we're doing after 4th level. How about a second set of claws from Lesser Beast Totem, and maybe a third from Feral Mutagen? After all, nothing in the rules says one hand can't have multiple sets of claws!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Giant frog wrote:

Special Abilities

Tongue (Ex) A giant frog’s tongue is a primary attack with reach equal to three times the frog’s normal reach (15 feet for a Medium giant frog). A giant frog’s tongue deals no damage on a hit, but can be used to grab. A giant frog does not gain the grappled condition while using its tongue in this manner.

Without that ability, the weretouched shifter tongue attack has a 5' reach.

Best shape II don't give it, so you don't get it until you reach level 8 (and your bite is better until you get the 15' reach).

Derklord: you can't use the same limb twice for a natural attack, so I really doubt that there is a RAW way to get your numbers. Maybe you can make your claw grow on your torso after you have used your arms and legs, but it is 1 area, not 2 or 4.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Derklord: you can't use the same limb twice for a natural attack

Where does it say that? It's one of these thigns people throw around all the time, but I don't think it's actually true.

The closest thing I can think of is the "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack." rule in the CRB, but that's only about mixing weapons and natural attacks.

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