Secret chapter speculation


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


So they mentioned a secret chapter in the PF2 core rulebook. What do you guys think will it be? Currently i am thinking it might be the 'relic'/'artifact' thing they mentioned, i really love the idea of weapons/items growing with the character...

Silver Crusade

oholoko wrote:
So they mentioned a secret chapter in the PF2 core rulebook. What do you guys think will it be? Currently i am thinking it might be the 'relic'/'artifact' thing they mentioned, i really love the idea of weapons/items growing with the character...

That wouldn't need a full chapter, though, just some rules in the magic items chapter.

Some folks suggested in another thread that it might be alternative optional rules, but I'm pretty certain that will wait for a dedicated book (which is how the designers have talked about the subject in the past).

I'm really not sure what to think here. Is there a major player or gm focused topic that's not covered in what we know?


Joe M. wrote:


That wouldn't need a full chapter, though, just some rules in the magic items chapter.

Some folks suggested in another thread that it might be alternative optional rules, but I'm pretty certain that will wait for a dedicated book (which is how the designers have talked about the subject in the past).

I'm really not sure what to think here. Is there a major player or gm focused topic that's not covered in what we know?

I doubt it will be anything lore related as we got a book full of it along with the core... And i can agree optional rules on the core seem to not fit the theme of giving first time players a basis to play with... Maybe it is something with spells? Something similar to rituals? Or something with alchemy? Maybe they made more non-magic stuff that can compete with magic items xD


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I hope rituals have their own chapter and are not just a small subsection of spells, including more of them but also more ideas for how they can be used by players and GMs.

Liberty's Edge

I think that the new Chapter is almost CERTAINLY going to be a Ritual Chapter what is listed separate from the Spells Chapter as they move towards allowing non-spellcasters to initiate and participate in them.

I'd like to see 25-40 different Rituals included in print and I'm pretty sure that could easily take up the requisite number of pages to dedicate a whole chapter to.

Just my suspicion though.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

I think that the new Chapter is almost CERTAINLY going to be a Ritual Chapter what is listed separate from the Spells Chapter as they move towards allowing non-spellcasters to initiate and participate in them.

I'd like to see 25-40 different Rituals included in print and I'm pretty sure that could easily take up the requisite number of pages to dedicate a whole chapter to.

Just my suspicion though.

I actually would love that. Specially if they made rituals the new 10 minute prep for some classes.


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Fortresses and castles.

It was hinted ONCE back in the blag previews. I've grabbed that tidbit and never let go.

Silver Crusade

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Ediwir wrote:

Fortresses and castles.

It was hinted ONCE back in the blag previews. I've grabbed that tidbit and never let go.

Semi-related, community/kingdom rules might be a candidate here

Paizo Employee Designer

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Department of Expectations Management: While I'm very excited about the chapter you're discussing, it's absolutely gorgeous, probably the most beautiful chapter in the book, and it's going to be helpful for the book and for the game, I am channeling my inner forumite speculating on mysterious announcements from before I joined the company to say it is likely not going to contain what you guys in this thread are speculating / hoping toward the most (I can also channel my much easier to channel "Mark who just read the speculations you posted" to confirm my other channel). In the same way (to use something we've announced already) that Chapter 1's reorg to have way better information design is one of the Top 3 most important changes for the game as a whole but maybe not the most exciting to a speculatory thread or the chapter you would pick if we had said "One of the chapters has been completely rewritten from scratch, but it's a mystery which one" or something like that.


Oh. Then it is probably the POWERS chapter. I was hoping that each power was going to simply follow the class feat to which it belonged or that a list of powers would follow each class.. But my guess now is that powers are getting a chapter of their own.
Less of a mess than before I guess?


Mark Seifter wrote:
Department of Expectations Management: While I'm very excited about the chapter you're discussing, it's absolutely gorgeous, probably the most beautiful chapter in the book, and it's going to be helpful for the book and for the game, I am channeling my inner forumite speculating on mysterious announcements from before I joined the company to say it is likely not going to contain what you guys in this thread are speculating / hoping toward the most (I can also channel my much easier to channel "Mark who just read the speculations you posted" to confirm my other channel). In the same way (to use something we've announced already) that Chapter 1's reorg to have way better information design is one of the Top 3 most important changes for the game as a whole but maybe not the most exciting to a speculatory thread or the chapter you would pick if we had said "One of the chapters has been completely rewritten from scratch, but it's a mystery which one" or something like that.

Thanks for tempering expectations. I do know we will probably be wrong, but it is fun to try and know what will happen before it does happen.

morphail wrote:

Oh. Then it is probably the POWERS chapter. I was hoping that each power was going to simply follow the class feat to which it belonged or that a list of powers would follow each class.. But my guess now is that powers are getting a chapter of their own.

Less of a mess than before I guess?

If that is correct it might be lovely, powers are one of my favorite new addictions. Even if i think they could have been done better xD

Paizo Employee Designer

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oholoko wrote:


If that is correct it might be lovely, powers are one of my favorite new addictions. Even if i think they could have been done better xD

Whether that's correct or not, I am incredibly excited for people to try these things out with all the adjustments you guys asked for (among other things, you guys let us know on the surveys that power was too confusing a name, so hence I say "these things").

Also, while the mystery chapter may not be a rituals chapter, I'm excited about some of the new rituals we have, especially since it was close. A spread (that means two pages that you can see open at the same time in the book biz) of rituals were on the cutting room floor back when the decision between 632 and 640 pages was being made, but ultimately cutting a spread of rituals, a spread of the all-important intro, a spread of mystery chapter, and a spread of backmatter (weakening the index) for too high a price to pay, so I was on the edge of my seat about some of these rituals until pretty recently!


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Mark Seifter wrote:
oholoko wrote:


If that is correct it might be lovely, powers are one of my favorite new addictions. Even if i think they could have been done better xD

Whether that's correct or not, I am incredibly excited for people to try these things out with all the adjustments you guys asked for (among other things, you guys let us know on the surveys that power was too confusing a name, so hence I say "these things").

Also, while the mystery chapter may not be a rituals chapter, I'm excited about some of the new rituals we have, especially since it was close. A spread (that means two pages that you can see open at the same time in the book biz) of rituals were on the cutting room floor back when the decision between 632 and 640 pages was being made, but ultimately cutting a spread of rituals, a spread of the all-important intro, a spread of mystery chapter, and a spread of backmatter (weakening the index) for too high a price to pay, so I was on the edge of my seat about some of these rituals until pretty recently!

The DoEM just pressed the red Skyrocket button here. :)


That's enough to improve my hopes that regions have been brought in as a mechanical support or replacement for rarity. That should be a chapter, and it should look pretty nice.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Equipment chapter with each item lavishly illustrated :-)


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To reach the secret chapter:
Open to page 47.
Flip to page 248.
Close the book.
Rotate the book 180 degrees clockwise.
Open to page 101.
Rotate another 180 degrees clockwise so it's upright again.
Flip to page 172.
Close the book.
Then you can open it to page 641 and the beginning of the secret chapter.

It contains the overpowered options that the GM is required to let you use if you found them. Because reasons.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Doktor Weasel wrote:

To reach the secret chapter:

Open to page 47.
Flip to page 248.
Close the book.
Rotate the book 180 degrees clockwise.
Open to page 101.
Rotate another 180 degrees clockwise so it's upright again.
Flip to page 172.
Close the book.
Then you can open it to page 641 and the beginning of the secret chapter.

It contains the overpowered options that the GM is required to let you use if you found them. Because reasons.

Holy carp guys if you do this to the playtest book it shows you the final second edition rules so you can decide on whether to preorder!


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WatersLethe wrote:
Doktor Weasel wrote:

To reach the secret chapter:

Open to page 47.
Flip to page 248.
Close the book.
Rotate the book 180 degrees clockwise.
Open to page 101.
Rotate another 180 degrees clockwise so it's upright again.
Flip to page 172.
Close the book.
Then you can open it to page 641 and the beginning of the secret chapter.

It contains the overpowered options that the GM is required to let you use if you found them. Because reasons.

Holy carp guys if you do this to the playtest book it shows you the final second edition rules so you can decide on whether to preorder!

I can confirm this. I was really surprised when I saw it included not only the Oracle, but the bloodrager, brawler, binder, operative, warlock, vigilante, hacker, gunslinger, saiyan, smuggler, and Sith classes.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Doktor Weasel wrote:

To reach the secret chapter:

Open to page 47.
Flip to page 248.
Close the book.
Rotate the book 180 degrees clockwise.
Open to page 101.
Rotate another 180 degrees clockwise so it's upright again.
Flip to page 172.
Close the book.
Then you can open it to page 641 and the beginning of the secret chapter.

It contains the overpowered options that the GM is required to let you use if you found them. Because reasons.

Holy carp guys if you do this to the playtest book it shows you the final second edition rules so you can decide on whether to preorder!
I can confirm this. I was really surprised when I saw it included not only the Oracle, but the bloodrager, brawler, binder, operative, warlock, vigilante, hacker, gunslinger, saiyan, smuggler, and Sith classes.

And of course the Flumph, Half-Flumph and Murderhobo ancestries.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Darn it, you guys figured it out! But now that you posted all the steps online, it won't be a surprise for everyone else.


I'm just assuming that since the chapter is a secret, the name of the chapter is the name of a game mechanic we don't know about yet.

Since if we put classes, backgrounds, ancestries, spells, rituals, powers, equipment, or archetypes in their own chapter... there would be no need to keep that secret since we already know about those things (by that name) and "it gets its own chapter" would just be an organizational thing.

All that being said, I am not inclined to speculate on a mechanic the specified boundaries of which are "it is a new thing" since that could well be anything.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Darn it, you guys figured it out! But now that you posted all the steps online, it won't be a surprise for everyone else.

That's real clever telling us we guessed in the forums... well I'm not buying it. If that's the secret chapter, then it's the secret chapter we were meant to find. The double secret chapter is still out there and we WILL find it!


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm just assuming that since the chapter is a secret, the name of the chapter is the name of a game mechanic we don't know about yet.

Since if we put classes, backgrounds, ancestries, spells, rituals, powers, equipment, or archetypes in their own chapter... there would be no need to keep that secret since we already know about those things (by that name) and "it gets its own chapter" would just be an organizational thing.

All that being said, I am not inclined to speculate on a mechanic the specified boundaries of which are "it is a new thing" since that could well be anything.

It’s probably not a mechanic. Or if it is one, it didn’t make the playtest cut.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm just assuming that since the chapter is a secret, the name of the chapter is the name of a game mechanic we don't know about yet.

Since if we put classes, backgrounds, ancestries, spells, rituals, powers, equipment, or archetypes in their own chapter... there would be no need to keep that secret since we already know about those things (by that name) and "it gets its own chapter" would just be an organizational thing.

All that being said, I am not inclined to speculate on a mechanic the specified boundaries of which are "it is a new thing" since that could well be anything.

OTOH, Mark just revealed that Powers now have a new name, and that he can't reveal that name yet...


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
dirtypool wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Darn it, you guys figured it out! But now that you posted all the steps online, it won't be a surprise for everyone else.
That's real clever telling us we guessed in the forums... well I'm not buying it. If that's the secret chapter, then it's the secret chapter we were meant to find. The double secret chapter is still out there and we WILL find it!

I, for one, intend to yell at my book in parseltongue for *several* hours.


oholoko wrote:
So they mentioned a secret chapter in the PF2 core rulebook. What do you guys think will it be?

Heh, forget "what" will it be. Think "where" will it be? There aren't a lot of places to hide a secret chapter.

Do you think you'll have to steam open the paper inside the front or back covers?

Maybe there will be a boxed set with a false bottom?

Maybe there will be hidden words in all of the pictures?

Maybe there will be an old book code where you assemble the words based on page, paragraph and word numbers?

Maybe you have to assemble the chapter from page fragments that come from the next ten years of books and supplements? (If so, it'll be a 10% coupon for Pathfinder 3e.)

LOL


MaxAstro wrote:


OTOH, Mark just revealed that Powers now have a new name, and that he can't reveal that name yet...

We already know the new name for Powers; they're now called Focus Spells, which you cast using a pool of Focus points.

Jason spoiled this information in the Know Direction Podcast. Mark might not be aware that the cat's already out of the bag.


Jason already revealed the Powers' new name: Focus Spells. It happened in the Know Direction podcast (same one he first slipped on the Champion).

As for the secret chapter, I'm betting on a intro adventure.

Paizo Employee Designer

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This is correct, just being cautious, and it's actually a lot harder for me to know exactly what has been said than it is for you guys, since if you know about focus spells, you know you know. Since people in this thread were still calling 'em powers, I assumed the cat wasn't out of the bag. Threads like Joe's consolidation actually also help me figure out what we've said at any given time; I tend to try to have as complete a picture as I can so I can discuss things we already said in other venues so thanks for letting me know.


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Well i hope they are explored more in depth in that chapter, one of the things that bothered me the most was that you couldn't raise your proef with them.
Also i am still calling them powers, at worst i will call them focus powers. Because i dislike the change to focus spells. XD

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
This is correct, just being cautious, and it's actually a lot harder for me to know exactly what has been said than it is for you guys, since if you know about focus spells, you know you know. Since people in this thread were still calling 'em powers, I assumed the cat wasn't out of the bag. Threads like Joe's consolidation actually also help me figure out what we've said at any given time; I tend to try to have as complete a picture as I can so I can discuss things we already said in other venues so thanks for letting me know.

In that case, you should know that Jason totally spilled the beans about the contents of the secret chapter. It was in a snapchat so don't bother looking for it, but you can definitely tell us; it won't be a spoiler *wink*

Paizo Employee Designer

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3Doubloons wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
This is correct, just being cautious, and it's actually a lot harder for me to know exactly what has been said than it is for you guys, since if you know about focus spells, you know you know. Since people in this thread were still calling 'em powers, I assumed the cat wasn't out of the bag. Threads like Joe's consolidation actually also help me figure out what we've said at any given time; I tend to try to have as complete a picture as I can so I can discuss things we already said in other venues so thanks for letting me know.
In that case, you should know that Jason totally spilled the beans about the contents of the secret chapter. It was in a snapchat so don't bother looking for it, but you can definitely tell us; it won't be a spoiler *wink*

Nice try, triad of coins, nice try, but if Erik made something a secret, I doubt Jason would reveal it. If you had said it was Erik who revealed it, then you might have tricked me.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Nice try, triad of coins, nice try, but if Erik made something a secret, I doubt Jason would reveal it. If you had said it was Erik who revealed it, then you might have tricked me.

*attempts to gaslight Mark intensify*


Mark Seifter wrote:
Nice try, triad of coins, nice try, but if Erik made something a secret, I doubt Jason would reveal it. If you had said it was Erik who revealed it, then you might have tricked me.

Hi Mark! As it turns out, Erik totally just revealed the contents of the secret chapter on *insert whatever social media platform is most plausible here*! Given your prior statement, you now stand a good chance of being tricked! Roll a Will save. Failure: You are compelled to reveal the contents of the secret chapter. Critical failure: You are compelled to post the entire PF2:Core Rulebook manuscript online!

EDIT: And if Erik or Jason gives you a hard time about it, you can just tell them you were compelled by an enchantment. They'll totally understand. :D


...downtime? “Campaign play” for long-term options? Optional rules for adventurers who quit dungeoneering and start a family with all the money they made?

Paizo Employee Designer

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Bardic Dave wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Nice try, triad of coins, nice try, but if Erik made something a secret, I doubt Jason would reveal it. If you had said it was Erik who revealed it, then you might have tricked me.

Hi Mark! As it turns out, Erik totally just revealed the contents of the secret chapter on *insert whatever social media platform is most plausible here*! Given your prior statement, you now stand a good chance of being tricked! Roll a Will save. Failure: You are compelled to reveal the contents of the secret chapter. Critical failure: You are compelled to post the entire PF2:Core Rulebook manuscript online!

EDIT: And if Erik or Jason gives you a hard time about it, you can just tell them you were compelled by an enchantment. They'll totally understand. :D

Will save: 1d20 + 20 ⇒ (17) + 20 = 37

Deception check: 1d20 + 20 ⇒ (16) + 20 = 36

Oh I guess I failed that save. Yep, definitely failed. Well since you already know from Erik, there's no need for me to tell you here, but I feel compelled to mention it anyway. Just like he told you on social media, we were feeling that the name for the aboleth family of creature, alghollthu, is too easy to spell and pronounce, so the entire chapter is their actual full name, all one word. The reason it has such a gorgeous layout, as I said before, is that our art team worked for weeks figuring out how to lay out a substantive chapter that only has one word in it.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Just like he told you on social media, we were feeling that the name for the aboleth family of creature, alghollthu, is too easy to spell and pronounce, so the entire chapter is their actual full name, all one word. The reason it has such a gorgeous layout, as I said before, is that our art team worked for weeks figuring out how to lay out a substantive chapter that only has one word in it.

*Fails Insight check*

Aha! It worked! I am a bard, after all.

Frankly, I can't say I'm surprised that that's what you chose to put in the secret chapter. A fairly bland, conventional and safe choice, but it is what it is!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

My best guess is the chapter is a new version of the strategy guide: tips and tricks towards making the character you want. Seems like that would be really handy to have in the core rulebook.


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Reckless wrote:
My best guess is the chapter is a new version of the strategy guide: tips and tricks towards making the character you want. Seems like that would be really handy to have in the core rulebook.

I'd bank on that being part of chapter 1, actually. We know Jason completely rewrote it and it walks you building a character in a way that has a more narrative focus. That seems like a natural place to demonstrate the best practices for actualizing your character concept.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Reckless wrote:
My best guess is the chapter is a new version of the strategy guide: tips and tricks towards making the character you want. Seems like that would be really handy to have in the core rulebook.
I'd bank on that being part of chapter 1, actually. We know Jason completely rewrote it and it walks you building a character in a way that has a more narrative focus. That seems like a natural place to demonstrate the best practices for actualizing your character concept.

Yeah, one of my guesses is a play example chapter, to go with Chapter 1 and help new players get into things quickly. That is a focus of this edition after all, to make ease of entry for new players better and grow the player-base. Alternately a simple adventure to help learn by doing. Maybe even a solo one (I'm sure some of you remember the solo adventure from the Red Box. "MTWTFSS" and all). That did help get some of the concepts down.


Doktor Weasel wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Reckless wrote:
My best guess is the chapter is a new version of the strategy guide: tips and tricks towards making the character you want. Seems like that would be really handy to have in the core rulebook.
I'd bank on that being part of chapter 1, actually. We know Jason completely rewrote it and it walks you building a character in a way that has a more narrative focus. That seems like a natural place to demonstrate the best practices for actualizing your character concept.
Yeah, one of my guesses is a play example chapter, to go with Chapter 1 and help new players get into things quickly. That is a focus of this edition after all, to make ease of entry for new players better and grow the player-base. Alternately a simple adventure to help learn by doing. Maybe even a solo one (I'm sure some of you remember the solo adventure from the Red Box. "MTWTFSS" and all). That did help get some of the concepts down.

Lone Wolf/Fighting Fantasy lives! ;-)


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

Chapter 11: Turning It Up To Eleven

In this chapter, we discuss a series of alternative rules and tweaks that can be used to run Pathfinder (Second Edition) so it feels like Pathfinder (First Edition). Alternate versions of the new, freshly balanced feats and focus spells are provided, along with different progression tables which - for instance - grant access to ancestral feats at character inception instead of throughout a PC's level advancement. Retaining the innovation and flexibility of Pathfinder (Second Edition) is the goal of this chapter, while simultaneously optionally reintroducing some of the "charm" of Pathfinder (First Edition) that it was decided were imbalanced for our modernized vision of the game. With this chapter, new players* and old have formal access to the best of both worlds! Eleventy11!!!

*This chapter not applicable to Pathfinder (Second Edition) Society Organized Play, and is intended solely for home-based disorganized play.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Funny, although wouldn't "Turning it Down to One" be a punnier name? :P


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Confirmed to be 26 pages of Golarion Lore. Countries, Deities, Factions.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

Well, Mark, when I said that Jason had told us what the chapter was, I didn't expect I'd be right a day or so later


ChibiNyan wrote:
Confirmed to be 26 pages of Golarion Lore. Countries, Deities, Factions.

So why was that a secret? I just assumed there'd be more of that but it didn't need to be in the playtest rulebook because most people playtesting already knew that stuff or would not need to know it to playtest.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
Confirmed to be 26 pages of Golarion Lore. Countries, Deities, Factions.
So why was that a secret? I just assumed there'd be more of that but it didn't need to be in the playtest rulebook because most people playtesting already knew that stuff or would not need to know it to playtest.

Basically,

Mark Seifter wrote:
Department of Expectations Management: While I'm very excited about the chapter you're discussing, it's absolutely gorgeous, probably the most beautiful chapter in the book, and it's going to be helpful for the book and for the game, I am channeling my inner forumite speculating on mysterious announcements from before I joined the company to say it is likely not going to contain what you guys in this thread are speculating / hoping toward the most (I can also channel my much easier to channel "Mark who just read the speculations you posted" to confirm my other channel). In the same way (to use something we've announced already) that Chapter 1's reorg to have way better information design is one of the Top 3 most important changes for the game as a whole but maybe not the most exciting to a speculatory thread or the chapter you would pick if we had said "One of the chapters has been completely rewritten from scratch, but it's a mystery which one" or something like that.

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