Pathfinder 2 Strategy Guide?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

1 to 50 of 69 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I recommend that Paizo should do a character generation book earlier then the last edition. 640 pages for a player is a bit much to digest.

A book that has only what a player needs to create their character would be a very nice option.

Heck! I wouldn't mind taking on the effort to build such a book, if the Paizo gods are willing.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I did find new players to my group seemed to get a lot from the 1st edition one, I'd definitely buy a new one.


If a PF2 Strategy Guide took the same form as the PF1 Strategy but came earlier in the production cycle then wouldn’t the Strategy Guide be out of date as additional classes and archetypes get released?

What you seem to be asking is less the SG and more a narrower player focused book that might fit easier in people’s hands. Which I personally do not want.

Liberty's Edge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I hope the guidelines to adequately create a character whose mechanics fit your concept are part of the CRB chassis and available from the get-go.

In other words, I hope a Strategy Guide for PF2 will not be needed for a very long time, if ever.


As far being quickly outdated, I suppose they could be slim companion volumes tied to books with classes.
Core rulebook strategy guide. APG strategy guide, and so forth. As new options come out.

I, too, found that my players often consulted and found a lot of use for the PF 1st edition Strategy Guide.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Personally, I think PF2 is sufficiently easier and more intuitive to create characters in than PF1 that this is unnecessary.


Yeah, the strategy guide definitely seemed a lot more important for PF1. Way more material to wade through, way more bad choices, way more complicated chassis. For example, you can use almost any ancestry for a near optimal class pairing.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm looking at 'The Strategy Guide' as being an extremely slimmed down version of the Core book, that only has the material needed to create characters. Something that would allow the table to have Two or Three of them for the cost of a single Core book.

Yes, I can see a smaller book being created for each new class/race book.


That seems like an unnecessary expense for Paizo to go through to print a full core rulebook and a character creation book anytime they publish new character options.


Mopdiphius did a good players guide for Conan. It was a slim volume that had the basics of character creation, skill use, task resolution, and combat. They could easily do a "Pathfinder Lite" and have a more manageable text for common use.


Sure, but Modiphius production model on Conan is a single core rulebook and published adventures, so a Players Guide is only out of date if errata is needed. I don’t see Paizo abandoning the approach that succeeded for them with PF1 - so a Players Guide companion book would be needed for the APG and Ultimate Races and Ultimate Combat etc.

So while it seems like they could easily do it, they’d have to do it again and again and again and that many print runs cost money. Maybe if it was a POD style book it would be more logical, but was the length of the PF1 Core ever really a barrier preventing people playing?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

No, the Conan line has many supplements that have new character options and extra rules. The players guide is not complete, but it doesn't HAVE to be. It just has the basics of the core rule book boiled down for ease of use at the table.


The specific new options are paired with setting and Adventure materials. They aren’t as fully tuned to character option as PF1 core additions, and let’s be honest about them - they cost about $30 so there isn’t a great deal of savings for the table.


dirtypool wrote:
The specific new options are paired with setting and Adventure materials. They aren’t as fully tuned to character option as PF1 core additions, and let’s be honest about them - they cost about $30 so there isn’t a great deal of savings for the table.

Still not relevant.

A strategy guide or players guide doesn't have to keep up with every option presented in future supplements as evidenced by the strategy guide they already published, which was a solid resource for new players.

"Pathfinder Lite" or a Strategy Guide or a Players Guide or whatever you want to call it, a 150-200 page book that is a useful resource at the table during actual play would be a fine supplement instead of having a 600+ tome thumping around being generally awkward to use.

I would happily shell out for that and I wish more game lines would follow suit.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It is absolutely relevant because at the $30 price point it costs only negligibly less to produce. Modiphius doesn’t have a huge market share so they do smaller print runs than Paizo does for release products. While you would be willing to shell out for this, how many others would? Enough to justify the expense? Maybe. Maybe not.

Isn’t it also a bit of a step in the direction that the other company goes in with its player centric product. The single volume is part of what sets the two companies apart.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Starfinder had a nice array of sample class builds, and a similar selection for Pathfinder would go a long way toward mitigating the need for a Strategy Guide.

For getting new players into the game, I'll keep my fingers crossed for a new Beginner's Box, which will always be an amazing resource.


dirtypool wrote:
It is absolutely relevant ....

Nah.

Your points so far have shifted from a strategy guide becoming obsolete as supplements as supplements are released to some nebulous cost argument.

Both points are invalid as shown by actual history. Paizo and other companies have put out slim versions of their rules designed for accessibility. This isn't even taking into consideration modern POD options which could make worrying about the viability of a print run completely unnecessary.

PF2 might be a great game and I might even run it as my next option, but I am not going to buy a physical core book. I bought one for PF1 after years of using PDFs and the PRD/AoN and honestly... it was a waste of money. It was unwieldy and inconvenient. It almost literally brought nothing to the table.

But I'd buy another Strategy Guide in a heart beat. A Pathfinder Enchiridon over an Omnibus at my table any day.

The pocket editions are also a good compromise, but still... not as easy to use and sadly, not as easy on the eyes.

The only good point against such a book that I can see in this thread is the idea that Paizo has learned enough about layout and book design that the new CRB could be exceptionally more useful than the 1st edition tome. If the new CRB is well laid out, indexed, annotated, and generally has better technical editing, then I will admit that it would be a better reference.

I would still rather buy a slimmer version to actually be at the table, though. And from some responses here and offline, I'm not alone.

It has happened before, it can easily happen again.


No my points haven’t shifted, those are two arguments against. The issue of obsolescence is an argument against a PF2 version of the PF1 Strategy Guide which collated material from all the various classes races and archetypes into a single volume.

The cost argument isn’t a nebulous one, it’s a very valid one because your argument here basically boils down to “I won’t spend money on your product unless you spend more money on production to design two versions of products because big books are inconvenient.” Enough people played PF1 with a 576 pg book for 10 years that I don’t think the extra 60+ is going to alienate a significant amount of players.

The argument in this thread however has shifted from a PF2 Strategy Guide to what you’re describing which is for all intents and purposes a PHB - which I and many others do not want from Pathfinder.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
dirtypool wrote:
No my points haven’t shifted, those are two arguments against. The issue of obsolescence is an argument against a PF2 version of the PF1 Strategy Guide which collated material from all the various classes races and archetypes into a single volume.

Umm, you do realize that the PF1 Strategy Guide doesn't touch stuff outside the Core Rulebook, right? It points you to other books for more info, but in a single section on page 117 that talks about what other hardcovers you might be interested in. There's no "Hey, if you want to build an Archer you might want to use Fancy Archetype Whatever from Random Other Book" going on. It avoids issues of obsolescence by strictly limiting itself to a tiny subset of the PF1 rules.


It points you to other books. An SG that comes out early in the production process can’t point to books that don’t yet exist. And if it comes out as early as being suggested here it potentially has the need for as much errata style revision as the core book.

What is the point of even having such a book this early in the release cycle beyond personal convenience?

And is it really convenient for Paizo to provide it for you? Does a player centric book potentially cut into sales of CRB if released too early? Who gauges when that should happen? How many people are truly interested in such a thing? How many want it for realistic playability reasons? What benefit does this book provide that a shared core book and the SRD doesn’t?

I’ve been where you are in Exalted. I’ve asked for this book and had to realize that it’s frankly not a necessary product.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thank you, rooneg.

Dirtypool, a product like this has already been published, been fairly well received, and has had proven utility. Not just by Paizo, but by others as well. The reason why your argument doesn't make sense is because the opposite already happened and it worked out.

Paizo shouldn't have to limit their audience to people happy with a great big brick of a book. They are already nicely diversified with both the big tome, pretty decent PDFs, generous access to online resources, and yes, the existing Strategy Guide. All of these things making their rule set and products accessible to as many people as they can manage to reach.

This has been working out for them for years. So far there is no reason for them to stop.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
dirtypool wrote:
It points you to other books. An SG that comes out early in the production process can’t point to books that don’t yet exist. And if it comes out as early as being suggested here it potentially has the need for as much errata style revision as the core book.

Honestly, I'm not arguing for them writing one right now, I don't think it's necessary or helpful, but 2/3 of a page in 159 page book hardly seems significant, especially if you read page 117 and take note of how incredibly generic the references to the other books are. The rest of the book is full of specific choices from the core rulebook you might make when building a character, the stuff on page 117 that points to other books is on the level of "umm, there are more classes here, and if you like magic check out Ultimate Magic". You could replace it with a pointer to a web page that lists other books as they come out and honestly have more functionality than what is there now.

There's nothing preventing them from writing the PF2 version of the PF1 Strategy Guide the day after they release the PF2 core rulebook. It honestly doesn't need anything else in the line to exist if all you're looking to do is replicate the kind of guide they did for PF1.

That said, they probably shouldn't do it now because ideally the PF2 core won't be cryptic enough to require it.


rooneg wrote:
That said, they probably shouldn't do it now because ideally the PF2 core won't be cryptic enough to require it.

That would really be nice.

Heck, considering that D&D Basic is a pretty useful document they could publish a mildly meatier version in the Beginners Box and it would give that product more long term value in the same vein as a Strategy Guide.

It certainly shouldn't be a launch product also because you would really want the chance for some errata to be fixed before you did something like this.

Concurrent with a second printing should be fine, if all goes well.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Just confused here... don't you need the parent rules to understand how you want to build your character?

I mean, I'd be entertained right reading through just the character creation details, but I wouldn't know if my build was any good if I didn't have the tactical combat rules or skill rules.

Ans while I know this doesn't address the cost, they are publishing a detailed "How to build a character" chapter in the CRB.


Stone Dog wrote:
The reason why your argument doesn't make sense is because the opposite already happened and it worked.

Except that the opposite didn’t happen. My arguments are for the idea that an SG should happen later in the production cycle rather than earlier. Which is what happened. The SG was published 7 years later allowing access to years of content and errata as well as entering the marketplace when it wasn’t competing with the CRB. Because the book exists isn’t proof that it should exist sooner than it did.


One thing dirtypool (among others) mentioned that holds water is the point about errata. THAT part is true. Get some of the language tuned up a bit more, find out where the people have the most confusion after the game hits the public. THEN put out a digest version of the main rules. That I'll get behind.

The obsolescence thing just doesn't matter. The existing book doesn't base its utility on years of content, nor is it set up in a way that requires updating when new material is published. It is only a good companion to the CRB that is helpful to players who do not want and/or need the actual CRB sitting on their shelf.

A 2nd edition version of the Guide would be very similar.


Errata holds water, but the financial aspect of publishing a “slimmed down” “cheaper” version of the CRB that would potentially sap off sales of that book doesn’t?

I like that the guy who thinks book publication can be done easily and that cost isn’t an issue in that process is judging what arguments “hold water.”


I do not believe that it would sap off sales of the CRB, no. The two books have some overlap, but the information in the CRB is still necessary and they do not compete for the same space.

A Guide would be targeted for the people who weren't going to buy the CRB anyway, at least not in a physical format, but could still use something for the table that isn't on a screen.

If anything is a threat to the PF2 CRB it is going to be the same thing that was a threat to the PF1 CRB, which are the online resources. Paizo generously makes everything that you need to play their game absolutely free, but the game line still makes money.

I hope and expect that Paizo will be able afford to make a "a narrower player focused book that might fit easier in people’s hands," which is exactly the niche that the current Guide tries to fill. Not at launch, certainly, but much sooner than the six years it took to get the first guide on the shelves.

Of course, they might not do it at all. There are people in this thread who seem to think that PF2 will be so well laid out that such a slim volume won't be necessary, save for the size issue. If that turns out to be the case I will certainly congratulate Paizo for it!


You don’t believe that in the early days of the games life (which is what the OP was arguing) an alternate book that you described as “the basics of the core book boiled down for ease of use at the table” would siphon off sales that otherwise might have gone to the CRB or the CRB pdf?

You don’t believe that given the option a table of six players would more likely buy 5 SG’s and a CRB than 6 CRB’s?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
dirtypool wrote:

You don’t believe that in the early days of the games life (which is what the OP was arguing) an alternate book that you described as “the basics of the core book boiled down for ease of use at the table” would siphon off sales that otherwise might have gone to the CRB or the CRB pdf?

You don’t believe that given the option a table of six players would more likely buy 5 SG’s and a CRB than 6 CRB’s?

I do not believe that a table of six players is automatically going to buy six CRBs in the first place. It just isn't necessary for every player to have a copy of the book even if nobody ever imagined that a guide might be an idea to consider or if there was no online PRD.

But the most important thing is that the SG does not and can not replace the CRB. If there were no online resources, the CRB would still be a mandatory purchase in some form for at least one player. The SG doesn't have the full details on races, classes, skills, feats, spells, magic items, or setting information like deities.

What a 2nd Edition Guide can do is the same thing that the 1st Edition Guide can do. Be a companion document for players who don't need/want a $60 omnibus, but could possibly use a $20-$30 handbook.

It allows Paizo to sell to a wider audience. It gives people something to buy who might otherwise have bought nothing.


I did not say that 6 players all will definitely buy the CRB I said that there being two similar books hitting the market in relative proximity to each other lessens the likelihood of more CRB sales.

If 4 out of 6 people decide to buy a book and get the CRB then Paizo spent x amount to make $240 - not all of which is profit

But if 3 out of 6 decide to buy an SG leaving one to buy the CRB then Paizo spent x amount and y amount to make $150 - not all of which is profit.


This is going to be my last post on the subject because we are just talking around each other and the core assumptions are just incompatible.

Long version:
Thanks to the existence of online resources like the PRD, our hypothetical groups of six players are going to buy a combination of books. They are probably going to buy between zero and six CRBs and zero to six Guides.

If there was no PRD, this combination would change to 1-6 CRBs and 0-6 Guides because the information in the CRB is mandatory and the information in the Guide is merely useful.

Having both a CRB and a Guide makes it more likely that a group of six players will buy more than zero books in the first case and more than one book in the second.

Yes, it is true that Paizo would make more money if people bought CRBs instead of Guides. It is also true that Paizo has a greater opportunity for sales if people have more than one reason to give them money.

Since there are people who will not buy a CRB regardless of whether or not there are other resources available, it makes sense for Paizo to have something they are more likely to buy.

TLDR Version:. Nobody who wants or needs the CRB is going to buy the Guide instead. Maybe also, but not instead.

Players who neither want nor need the CRB aren't going to buy it, but might still buy the Guide.

Paizo could make more sales catering to both kinds of customers.

And with that, I'm done. I understand your position, I just think it is limiting Paizo's market.


Stone Dog wrote:

This is going to be my last post on the subject because we are just talking around each other and the core assumptions are just incompatible.

** spoiler omitted **

TLDR Version:. Nobody who wants or needs the CRB is going to buy the Guide instead. Maybe also, but not instead.

Players who neither want nor need the CRB aren't going to buy it, but might still buy the Guide.

Paizo could make more sales catering to both kinds of customers.

And with that, I'm done. I understand your position, I just think it is limiting Paizo's market.

Well i can see where you are coming from and i can agree something like a guide seems like a good idea. But problem is... Is it really good? I mean you are making a new book even if it is just 100ish pages that's a lot of work for a book not for your core audience.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Apparently I lied. You made a liar our of me, oholoko. I hope you are happy. ;)

oholoko wrote:
Well i can see where you are coming from and i can agree something like a guide seems like a good idea. But problem is... Is it really good? I mean you are making a new book even if it is just 100ish pages that's a lot of work for a book not for your core audience.

They already made one. People bought it. They have a head start on a new one since they already have reviews and something to base it off of. If the 1st edition wasn't a complete waste of time and money*, the 2nd edition version of it probably won't be either. Give it one or two years after launch instead of six and it should be fine.

I don't think that a Guide is a silver bullet that would guarantee PF2s ascension. However, I do think that PF2 has to at least match appeal with D&D 5e.

The online resources are going to do a lot. However, Paizo needs players and to get them, they might need a loss leader. Something that is cheaper than the 5e Players Handbook and has more endurance than the Beginner's Box. Something to get them in the door and more willing to purchase further product.

That thing could be a PF2 Strategy Guide. Not in 2019. Maybe 2020. Possibly 2021. But relatively soon, not late.

*I have to admit that I'm assuming it wasn't when it might have been.


We aren’t talking around each other. You’re just actively disregarding anything I or the other poster says with two arguments: “Paizo’s 1e SG sold well” and “Modiphius makes books that way.”

Now we’re onto “they need to compete with 5e”

None of which contravenes the production argument or the cost argument or the relevance argument.


Again I'm a liar about leaving this thread alone, but it has been forever since I've had a stimulating forum discussion.

dirtypool wrote:
We aren’t talking around each other.

We totally are. These posts are mainly the same points repeated in slightly different ways. Circles. Round and round.

Quote:
None of which contravenes the production argument or the cost argument or the relevance argument.

I've addressed these things already. Lets try again one at a time.

The relevance argument. The Guide would be at risk of being out of date.

This is invalid except where errata to the CRB is concerned, which I've already admitted as a reason not to launch it too soon. This sort of book never has to be updated to match the PF2 versions of Ultimate Combat or Ultimate Magic or whatever because that it not its purpose.

The reference to the similar books that Modiphius puts out is merely an additional example of this. Both PF1's Strategy Guide and Modiphius' players guides focus on making the fundamentals of the core rule books more digestible to players who aren't in the market for the actual core book without (and here is the important part) without invalidating the the core rule book itself.

The cost argument. Sales of the Guide will negatively impact sales of the CRB.

This is more debatable because you can plug in whatever numbers you speculate and say with confidence that those numbers make the most sense.

You seem to be putting forward a world where ,more players will be buying the CRB than not and anything that might alter that is going to damage the future of the game.

I'm picturing a world where more players are not going to buy CRBs than are going to buy it. Selling them a version of the rulebook that is more appealing to their needs is therefore better than selling them nothing at all.

In addition, I believe that having product actually in the hands of players encourages those players to buy more product that interests them. So an affordable guide in the hands of players that don't want a full CRB could generate more sales in general; both making Pathfinder more successful and, yes, more competitive to 5e.

The Production Argument. The Guide isn't worth the expense/effort to make.

This is mostly tied to the cost argument. If customers are willing to pay for enough of a book then it is obviously worth the effort and time to produce that book. I would hazard that the 2nd guide would be easier than the 1st since most of the trailblazing there is already done.

The only way to judge if this is the case is to look back at previous and similar products. As such, if the PF1 SG sold well, it is reasonable to assume that a 2nd edition one might also sell well. This is going to be dependent on a lot of internal things at Paizo that we are not privy to, though.

.

.

Now, I'm fully ready to admit that I might be wrong about the production angle. That involves insider information and risk analysis that is going to remain Paizo's deal and we are probably just going to have to wonder about that. If anybody who is in the position to know comes along and says "Yeah, the PF1 SG lost money. It was a mistake." then that is that.

I do think that you are wrong about the cost argument, but then again neither one of us have anything other than anecdotes and speculation. All of the rule books are unnecessary luxuries to actually playing the game. Due to online policies at Paizo, the game is currently free and appears that it is going to continue to be free. Who knows how many groups like mine are out there playing the game without a penny spent on core rules or how many groups only want one CRB to pass around the table. The purchasing habits of the average 6 player group in this environment are just theory crafting.

The only thing I'm certain of is the relevance angle. The only way that a new Guide can be made obsolete is if the CRB is made obsolete. I can't picture a future where this is a choice Paizo would make. Until 3rd edition, anyway.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Quote:
If customers are willing to pay for enough of a book then it is obviously worth the effort and time to produce that book.

The question is: "how many customers at the time of publication?"

There is a significant up front cost to writing/printing/binding/storing/shipping any book let alone a hard cover book of thr Strategy Guide quality. If you can't expect to make a substantial profit (not just +$1, +$100, or even +$10,000) over all the costs involved, then it isn't time to begin working on that book.

Quote:
I would hazard that the 2nd guide would be easier than the 1st since most of the trailblazing there is already done.

No, it has not. This comment is so off the mark that I don't know where to begin. Writing, editing, formating, typesetting, commisioning art... *brain explodes*

Some players probably would prefer a strategy guide over the whole CRB and at some point that product might turn a profit for Paizo, but that setence above is just off base.


Blake's Tiger wrote:
Quote:
If customers are willing to pay for enough of a book then it is obviously worth the effort and time to produce that book.

The question is: "how many customers at the time of publication?"

There is a significant up front cost to writing/printing/binding/storing/shipping any book let alone a hard cover book of thr Strategy Guide quality. If you can't expect to make a substantial profit (not just +$1, +$100, or even +$10,000) over all the costs involved, then it isn't time to begin working on that book.

Which is why I admit readily that it involves internal assesment on Paizo's end and any external customer speculation is going to have an incomplete picture.

Blake's Tiger wrote:
Quote:
I would hazard that the 2nd guide would be easier than the 1st since most of the trailblazing there is already done.
No, it has not. This comment is so off the mark that I don't know where to begin. Writing, editing, formating, typesetting, commisioning art... *brain explodes*

I said trailblazing for a reason. Not that the journey is more complete, but that the path is already visible. Out of all the steps you mentioned, at least they don't have to actually design any new rules or setting info and while the first one was made without a previous example, it now serves as a framework to make the new one as well.

So yes. Easier. Not less labor, just potentially not as hard as the first time.


Blake's Tiger wrote:
Quote:
I would hazard that the 2nd guide would be easier than the 1st since most of the trailblazing there is already done.
No, it has not. This comment is so off the mark that I don't know where to begin. Writing, editing, formating, typesetting, commisioning art... *brain explodes*

As a very rough analogy, I think that the PF1 Guide would be sort of like a first college level essay. You've never done one before, so it isn't just research and format and citations and all of the work, but it is also learning how to do those things in the first place and learning where you got it all wrong after you turned it in.

The potential PF2 guide is kind of like that. They don't have to make anything new, they "merely" have to reorganize something that already exists to a digest of itself.

This is likely still going to be a lot of work, but they have done it before. It is familiar ground in the way other rulebooks and sourcebooks that require actual new material can't be.

It is possible, but perhaps not probable, that it would be the same amount of labor to do this similar project, but that labor won't be as difficult as it was the first time.


The Relevance argument has nothing to do with my comments about the information perhaps becoming outdated. The relevance argument is: Is a separate book even necessary with the way the materials are presented in the core?

The cost argument is the one you clearly don’t get. I’m not “putting forward a world where more people will buy the CRB than not” I’m putting forward a world where Paizo is a business that wants to make money. If the SG comes out too early there is the potential for it to draw some players who might still have purchased the CRB to just buy the SG instead. It’s why movie studios don’t put out DVD’s until after a film has gone to second run theaters. Someone might still decide to see it on the big screen, but they won’t if they could just go to Walmart and pick it up.

The production argument is where you disconnect from logic: “they made it before, they can make it again. Work’s already done.” I won’t speak to the work that goes into designing that book, someone else already did that and you just dismissed everything they said outright because... reasons? The other thing you keep dismissing is the cost of producing the book, which no matter how many times you say the word “nah” they can’t print and ship this book for free.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Quote:
It is possible, but perhaps not probable, that it would be the same amount of labor to do this similar project, but that labor won't be as difficult as it was the first time.

I get that "easier" can mean anything from 0.01% to 99.99% less work, so you are technically correct. But you are glossing over that it is a work load. So that needs to be inserted into their current schedule of product development. Currently on their plate is the CRB, Bestiary, World Guide, a module, an AP series, and a handful of non-book items. Currently on their docket for the future is at least (what I've seen them say) 4 planned World Guides, at least one more Bestiary, and a regular production of modules and AP books.

So, yes, they made a strategy guide before and, yes, it may be easier the second time around since they have an idea of how a strategy guide should look, but it is not easy to publish one.

I have no idea if they will or won't publish a strategy guide or when the right time might be, but don't minimize the work involved in creating a finished draft, let alone publishing it.


dirtypool wrote:
The relevance argument is: Is a separate book even necessary with the way the materials are presented in the core?

Sorry, I did take all your comments about updating as meaning relevance as in staying relevant, not whether it was starting out necessary.

Still, I've mentioned that too. Neither book is necessary at all, barring a dramatic change in online policy, and I have mentioned that if the new CRB is so well laid out that it is easier at the table it would reduce the need for a Guide. IF that is the case, that leaves size and cost as a barrier to purchase and not so much reference.

dirtypool wrote:
The cost argument is the one you clearly don’t get.

No, I get it, I just don't agree with it. I apologize for seeming to misrepresent your words, but we are simply differing on how they are going to make money. I want them to get as much product into the hands of customers as possible and I think that an earlier Guide instead of a late cycle Guide encouraging overall sales would be better for the line than that. I don't think that it would impact the CRB so dramatically as you do and I think it would be better for Pathfinder as a whole. Just somewhere in the first few years instead of more than five.

dirtypool wrote:
The production argument is where you disconnect from logic: “they made it before, they can make it again. Work’s already done.”

I can see where I've let that be inferred far too easily, but it is not what I'm saying or what I believe. They've made it before and can make it again, yes. The work is clearly not DONE, just already practiced and proven. A PF2 Guide should be easier (though still not easy) than say, a PF2 Ultimate Combat.

Anyway, thanks for keeping with this. It has been a long time since I've been interested enough in an online conversation to actually participate in one. Clearly I need to work on my composition, but I've still enjoyed this.


You're thinking like a consumer who is already committed to a product, and that perspective frankly is how you're looking at every aspect you've mentioned. The dedicated customer sees a CRB and an SG and thinks "Book 1 and Book 2 would both be useful to me so I'll buy both, and that guy over there only needs Book 2 so he'll buy Book 2 and more product will get into peoples hands. Win for everyone."

The tangential customer who played 3.5 and left the hobby, heard about Pathfinder and sees the new book at Barnes & Noble might buy the core book and play the game. He might also in year two see that book and buy it to play the game. He might still in year two see that there's a 640 page core book and a strategy guide and think "Christ how complicated is this game?" and walk away buying nothing. The marketing decisions that go into when products should be released are targeted more toward THAT customer than to you or I and from a marketing perspective you want to maximize the earning potential of the CRB by making sure it is seen as the primary tool for as long as possible.

I'm talking about it from the perspective of marketing and sales - and not putting a potentially competing product of your own in the marketplace while your core product is still in its primary sales life cycle. It doesn't make sense to introduce product overlap like that unless absolutely necessary.

There is another big thing that is a factor here and that's the intent of the book. The first SG came out when it did as a clear cut entry point so that Pathfinder didn't seem like a dense and impenetrable game compared with the shiny new kid on the block: 5E. PF2 shouldn't feel impenetrable for SOME TIME. So the need of the original SG won't exist early on. Without the need to create concise appeal to the overwhelmed then it only really serves to help people who don't want the aesthetics of a big book at their table. Is that market enough to justify the expense of paying a writer to write a book, an editor to layout the book, artists to create content for the book, and the printers to produce the book or is it more advantageous to keep it in your back pocket for a day you might actually NEED it.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Maybe this is a better idea: A paperback or PDF of each class, including, a character or two already completed, and probably a character sheet devoted to the needs of that class?

This way it is small. It could be bundeled up later. It is an expandable supplement when new splat books come out. A set of them can be distributed among the table when chargen is being done.

Another marketing ploy would be to add a (short) solo adventure dedicated to that class, if pages permit.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
dirtypool wrote:
The tangential customer who played 3.5 and left the hobby, heard about Pathfinder and sees the new book at Barnes & Noble might buy the core book and play the game. He might also in year two see that book and buy it to play the game. He might still in year two see that there's a 640 page core book and a strategy guide and think "Christ how complicated is this game?" and walk away buying nothing.

Wouldn't literally any supplement provoke that reaction? I don't really follow how a book specifically targeted towards new and returning players is somehow more intimidating than, say, an Advanced Players Guide 2.0. In fact, given there's now going to be a market of players of PF1 that might want something a bit less wieldy than the CRB as they transition to PF2 (plus players getting bored of the lack of customization in 5e), something akin to the SG might be useful.

Mind, I don't think we need this book as early as StoneDog. I think a beginners box would be much more useful for that niche for the first several years. But, eventually, yeah.

Shain Edge wrote:

Maybe this is a better idea: A paperback or PDF of each class, including, a character or two already completed, and probably a character sheet devoted to the needs of that class?

This way it is small. It could be bundeled up later. It is an expandable supplement when new splat books come out. A set of them can be distributed among the table when chargen is being done.

Another marketing ploy would be to add a (short) solo adventure dedicated to that class, if pages permit.

You, I like you and I like this idea.


AnimatedPaper wrote:


Wouldn't literally any supplement provoke that reaction? I don't really follow how a book specifically targeted towards new and returning players is somehow more intimidating than, say, an Advanced Players Guide 2.0.

This was a series of examples trying to show to StoneDog that one book can affect the sales of another, and yes ANY supplement could have that affect - but not as easily as a book that is just a compressed version of content from the larger book.

Someone could see something called a strategy guide released in year 1 or 2 of a game's cycle and think "It's so hard they needed to release a streamlined strategy guide a year later?" or think "It was so broken they needed to fix it this early"

The core point though was that if released early in the cycle it runs the risk of interfering with the profit of the CRB. If I am just a player with no intention of DMing or doing much at all beyond playing a core race and class and I go into a store and I see two books: one with character creation content amongst its 640 page and one which is just the character creation content I might think to just spend money on the smaller book. Which is entirely logical as that player. If that book comes out in year one or two that's also a decision someone who otherwise would have purchased the CRB might make.

Quote:
In fact, given there's now going to be a market of players of PF1 that might want something a bit less wieldy than the CRB as they transition to PF2 (plus players getting bored of the lack of customization in 5e), something akin to the SG might be useful.

Someone transitioning from PF1 to PF2 would need more than just the Character Creation Rules to begin playing in PF2... They'd need the whole CRB

Quote:
Mind, I don't think we need this book as early as StoneDog. I think a beginners box would be much more useful for that niche for the first several years. But, eventually, yeah.

I'm not opposed to it if and when it fills a logical need. I'm just presenting arguments why releasing it "much earlier than the PF1 Strategy Guide" is not the right move.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
dirtypool wrote:

Someone could see something called a strategy guide released in year 1 or 2 of a game's cycle and think "It's so hard they needed to release a streamlined strategy guide a year later?" or think "It was so broken they needed to fix it this early"

The CRB is 640 pages. I'm pretty sure everyone is going to think it's complicated. It is.

dirtypool wrote:

The core point though was that if released early in the cycle it runs the risk of interfering with the profit of the CRB. If I am just a player with no intention of DMing or doing much at all beyond playing a core race and class and I go into a store and I see two books: one with character creation content amongst its 640 page and one which is just the character creation content I might think to just spend money on the smaller book. Which is entirely logical as that player. If that book comes out in year one or two that's also a decision someone who otherwise would have purchased the CRB might make.

The PRD exists, and an awful lot of us have tablets. Also, Paizo has consistently released PDFs alongside their physical books. I don't think competing products released simultaneously is as big a factor in their thinking as you are assuming. I get your logic, but I really think Stonedog has the right of it on this point.

Also, transitioning players do NOT need the entire CRB. They need the character creation rules and a concise rundown of the three modes of play (and what parts of the character sheet are relevant to each). Players coming from 5E would also benefit from a rundown of Golarion. All of which is in the PF1 strategy guide.


AnimatedPaper wrote:


The PRD exists, and an awful lot of us have tablets. Also, Paizo has consistently released PDFs alongside their physical books. I don't think competing products released simultaneously is as big a factor in their thinking as you are assuming. I get your logic, but I really think Stonedog has the right of it on this point.

No I just think that neither you, nor Stonedog are the audience they would lose by overcrowding the marketplace with multiple books with the same content in it. The players who buy the pdf and play off their tablet and the players who exclusively buy books are two separate niche's of the games marketplace.

Quote:
Also, transitioning players do NOT need the entire CRB.

So in your estimation, to transition from playing PF1 to playing PF2 players don't need the PF2 rules?

Quote:
They need the character creation rules and a concise rundown of the three modes of play (and what parts of the character sheet are relevant to each).

So looking at the Playtest booklet you've carved out about 320 pages that you deem necessary, and what remains are the DM materials. You're calling it a Strategy Guide - but what you're saying is that they need to make a classic PHB.

If that's the reason to make a Strategy Guide, to model the other company's approach - then frankly there is no reason for a Strategy Guide.


AnimatedPaper wrote:
Also, transitioning players do NOT need the entire CRB. They need the character creation rules and a concise rundown of the three modes of play (and what parts of the character sheet are relevant to each). Players coming from 5E would also benefit from a rundown of Golarion. All of which is in the PF1 strategy guide.

Are you really, really sure about that? Because during the Playtest every PF1 player I encountered, self included, needed more than a concise rundown of the three modes of play. They needed every iteration of every rule because of inherent differences. They needed every spell because of the differences.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes, I'm sure that not every player needs to purchase an all up CRB to play pathfinder, which was the point I was responding to. For proof, please see every single iteration of 3.5, including PF1.

1 to 50 of 69 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / General Discussion / Pathfinder 2 Strategy Guide? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.