paizo.com Recent Posts in I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...paizo.com Recent Posts in I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...2019-03-14T17:57:45Z2019-03-14T17:57:45ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...TOZ (alias of TriOmegaZero)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#862020-03-02T15:30:25Z2020-03-02T15:30:25Z<p>So, where are they now?</p>So, where are they now?TOZ (alias of TriOmegaZero)2020-03-02T15:30:25ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...Doktor Weaselhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#852019-03-27T18:33:47Z2019-03-27T01:36:05Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Michael Sayre wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote><p> All the propaganda about pyromania and such is just vile lies from humans.
</p>
</blockquote><p>Oh no, goblins <i>love</i> fire. That's just not an automatic disqualification from being a productive member of society.
<p>As an example, I went to high school with a guy who <i>really</i> enjoyed blowing things up. Honestly to the point that I very much doubt he would have stayed out of the legal system and avoided serious repercussions if we'd been born a little more recently or lived somewhere other than Alaska. When he turned seventeen he joined the Army, where he has spent the last 17 years getting paid by the government to blow up anything that <i>might</i> be a dangerous explosive (and occasionally things that definitely aren't but which still fall under a specific category of "blow things like this up just in case".)
<br />
That basic desire to watch things explode is definitely the kind of thing that should give school counselors and members of the constabulary pause, but it was also something that our society was able to find a positive outlet for. I'm given to understand that when he retires in a few years he's probably going to be going into some kind of contracting gig that's going to give him lots of opportunities to demolish unsafe/condemned structures in legally approved environments.</blockquote><p>I remember conversations with chemistry and physics professors about fire and explosions. One talked about how he impressed his wife on their first date by making an explosion and how in college they used to pour large bags of non-dairy creamer out of an upper floor window to be ignited by a flame held out of a lower window. And in a physics class I remember the professor once asking who liked to blow stuff up when they were younger, the vast majority of the class raised their hand. <b><a href="http://theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Stories/011.2/index.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Tossing sodium into water is also a college classic.</a></b> There is the <b><a href="https://youtu.be/UjPxDOEdsX8" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> classic video of lighting a barbecue quickly by pouring liquid oxygen on the coals.</b></a> And of course, fire and explosions are all throughout our entertainment. Michael Bay would probably make a good goblin. Fascination with fire isn't unusual.Michael Sayre wrote:thejeff wrote:All the propaganda about pyromania and such is just vile lies from humans.
Oh no, goblins love fire. That's just not an automatic disqualification from being a productive member of society. As an example, I went to high school with a guy who really enjoyed blowing things up. Honestly to the point that I very much doubt he would have stayed out of the legal system and avoided serious repercussions if we'd been born a little more recently or lived somewhere...Doktor Weasel2019-03-27T01:36:05ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...Deadmanwalkinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#842019-03-28T01:47:59Z2019-03-26T23:11:18Z<p>I have no objections to certain species having built in antisocial tendencies that are more likely to result in an Evil Alignment for a random member of that species than for a random human. Their biology is different and them thus having divergent tendencies, including antisocial ones, seems very reasonable to me.</p>
<p>But biology is not destiny for any thinking creature with free will. Canonically, in Golarion, this is even true of undead (who we have several non-Evil examples of), and fiends (whose redemption we have a couple examples of). But it's <i>certainly</i> true of living biological entities. </p>
<p>As Michael Sayre notes, the more antisocial tendencies of goblins can be channeled, and there are other examples of this as well for other species, with the primal rage of orcs not at all preventing a CG one devoted to Sarenrae from existing or the like. I think that's the standard we should be using for all such species. I mean, maybe Drow score much higher for sociopathic tendencies than humans do, as well as having a truly vile culture...but that doesn't prevent them from being perfectly nice people given the right environment to grow up in.</p>I have no objections to certain species having built in antisocial tendencies that are more likely to result in an Evil Alignment for a random member of that species than for a random human. Their biology is different and them thus having divergent tendencies, including antisocial ones, seems very reasonable to me.
But biology is not destiny for any thinking creature with free will. Canonically, in Golarion, this is even true of undead (who we have several non-Evil examples of), and fiends...Deadmanwalking2019-03-26T23:11:18ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...Michael Sayre (Design Manager)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#832020-03-04T08:45:54Z2019-03-26T22:54:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote><p> All the propaganda about pyromania and such is just vile lies from humans.
</p>
</blockquote><p>Oh no, goblins <i>love</i> fire. That's just not an automatic disqualification from being a productive member of society.
<p>As an example, I went to high school with a guy who <i>really</i> enjoyed blowing things up. Honestly to the point that I very much doubt he would have stayed out of the legal system and avoided serious repercussions if we'd been born a little more recently or lived somewhere other than Alaska. When he turned seventeen he joined the Army, where he has spent the last 17 years getting paid by the government to blow up anything that <i>might</i> be a dangerous explosive (and occasionally things that definitely aren't but which still fall under a specific category of "blow things like this up just in case".)
<br />
That basic desire to watch things explode is definitely the kind of thing that should give school counselors and members of the constabulary pause, but it was also something that our society was able to find a positive outlet for. I'm given to understand that when he retires in a few years he's probably going to be going into some kind of contracting gig that's going to give him lots of opportunities to demolish unsafe/condemned structures in legally approved environments.</p>
<p>There's no reason that goblins can't find similar outlets. I took a look at one way goblin pyromania could find a constructive outlet in <a href="https://paizo.com/products/btq01wkp?Pathfinder-Society-Scenario-1012-Breath-of-the-Dragonskull" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Pathfinder Society Scenario #10–12: Breath of the Dragonskull</a>, where </p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>In Fumbus's write-up it discusses how he lives in a water-logged house in the Puddles where he can indulge all kinds of flammable experiments without putting the city proper at risk. If you happen to live in a region where the occasional shambling horde of undead is a potential threat, having a bunch of neighbors who are <i>always</i> ready to set something on fire might not be such a bad thing.</p>
<p>Manic levels of energy aren't a disqualifier from being a productive member of society. Neither is an unhealthy fascination with flame. As long as the society has the opportunity and motivation to accommodate those traits with productive outlets, they can even be valuable resources or contributions.
<br />
If you were a society that happened to have e.g. Geb as one of your neighbors, then having a population of small, stealthy scouts who can eat just about anything, are highly motivated to light any corpses they stumble across on fire, and whose cultural upbringing has infused them with a cavalier disregard for their own safety, is potentially a really positive thing.</p>thejeff wrote:All the propaganda about pyromania and such is just vile lies from humans.
Oh no, goblins love fire. That's just not an automatic disqualification from being a productive member of society. As an example, I went to high school with a guy who really enjoyed blowing things up. Honestly to the point that I very much doubt he would have stayed out of the legal system and avoided serious repercussions if we'd been born a little more recently or lived somewhere other than Alaska....Michael Sayre (Design Manager)2019-03-26T22:54:27ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...MMCJawahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#822019-03-26T22:42:55Z2019-03-26T22:42:55Z<p>I think you can still keep the pyromania as an innate aspect of goblins and also still have them not be pure evil. Plenty of societies in the real world have venerated fire and used it heavily as a tool. It's possible Goblins can just channel that towards more productive areas, like alchemy and so forth.</p>
<p>Also, I am pretty sure Paizo is easing off as well on the "Drow are always evil", as well. Personally I would be happy if all mortal humanoid races biologically had equal propensity for good or evil. That some races are more prone to one over the other should be down to culture and history, rather than anything. We can keep the "always evil" for fiends (literally made of evil), undead (powered by the magical equivalent of radiation) and aberrations (whose minds are so alien that the concept of "good" is impossible for them to comprehend)</p>I think you can still keep the pyromania as an innate aspect of goblins and also still have them not be pure evil. Plenty of societies in the real world have venerated fire and used it heavily as a tool. It's possible Goblins can just channel that towards more productive areas, like alchemy and so forth.
Also, I am pretty sure Paizo is easing off as well on the "Drow are always evil", as well. Personally I would be happy if all mortal humanoid races biologically had equal propensity for good...MMCJawa2019-03-26T22:42:55ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...bugleymanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#812019-03-26T21:26:54Z2019-03-26T21:26:54Z<p>Personally, I'm not in love with goblins being core, but it's not a deal-breaker for me.</p>
<p>It definitely impacts the baseline assumptions of the player-base, though, and means that the "core" world looks different than it did in PF 1E. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it <i>is</i> a thing.</p>Personally, I'm not in love with goblins being core, but it's not a deal-breaker for me.
It definitely impacts the baseline assumptions of the player-base, though, and means that the "core" world looks different than it did in PF 1E. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is a thing.bugleyman2019-03-26T21:26:54ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...Deadmanwalkinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#802019-03-27T16:34:11Z2019-03-26T21:23:58Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kalindlara wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Deadmanwalking wrote:</div><blockquote> ...Elves of Golarion mentions the nation of Jinin in Tian Xia precisely zero times, and barely mentions those elven cultural centers outside Kyonin.</blockquote>Admittedly, Tian Xia probably wasn't written at all back then. Just ask the <a href="https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Truecolor%20Dye" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Miracle Samurai</a>. ^_^ </blockquote><p>Well, sure. But that's really just reinforces my point in many ways. Jinin's existence wasn't really a retcon, but it was an expansion and books before it's existence do not and cannot reference it.
<p>Likewise the existence of more reasonable goblin tribes.</p>Kalindlara wrote:Deadmanwalking wrote: ...Elves of Golarion mentions the nation of Jinin in Tian Xia precisely zero times, and barely mentions those elven cultural centers outside Kyonin.
Admittedly, Tian Xia probably wasn't written at all back then. Just ask the Miracle Samurai. ^_^ Well, sure. But that's really just reinforces my point in many ways. Jinin's existence wasn't really a retcon, but it was an expansion and books before it's existence do not and cannot reference it. Likewise the...Deadmanwalking2019-03-26T21:23:58ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...MaxAstrohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#792019-03-26T20:29:01Z2019-03-26T18:42:32Z<p>I guess I should clarify that I don't need all drow to be evil, but I am very much attached to the idea of drow culture being evil.</p>I guess I should clarify that I don't need all drow to be evil, but I am very much attached to the idea of drow culture being evil.MaxAstro2019-03-26T18:42:32ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...AnimatedPaperhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#782019-03-26T18:16:18Z2019-03-26T18:15:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kalindlara wrote:</div><blockquote> (Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that it's just as sketchy as it ever was to have drow, in particular, be the "always baby-eating evil from birth, kill them on sight without remorse" ones.) </blockquote><p>Especially since skeletons exist. THOSE are quite literally (ingame) created to be a nuisance for adventurers to clear out. Or refresh the population, as the case may be.Kalindlara wrote:(Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that it's just as sketchy as it ever was to have drow, in particular, be the "always baby-eating evil from birth, kill them on sight without remorse" ones.)
Especially since skeletons exist. THOSE are quite literally (ingame) created to be a nuisance for adventurers to clear out. Or refresh the population, as the case may be.AnimatedPaper2019-03-26T18:15:43ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...PossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#772019-03-27T14:44:25Z2019-03-26T18:14:04Z<p>I feel like, just from an "empathy is not desirable here" perspective the "always evil, kill on sight" thing probably shouldn't be reminiscent of a human (in terms of number of arms, legs, heads, etc.)</p>
<p>Like Aboleths work as "always evil, kill whenever possible" but Orcs, Goblins, Drow, and Kobolds are recognizable as people (possibly awful people, but people nonetheless.)</p>I feel like, just from an "empathy is not desirable here" perspective the "always evil, kill on sight" thing probably shouldn't be reminiscent of a human (in terms of number of arms, legs, heads, etc.)
Like Aboleths work as "always evil, kill whenever possible" but Orcs, Goblins, Drow, and Kobolds are recognizable as people (possibly awful people, but people nonetheless.)PossibleCabbage2019-03-26T18:14:04ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...Kalindlara (Contributor)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#762019-04-27T10:01:59Z2019-03-26T18:04:52Z<p>(Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that it's just as sketchy as it ever was to have drow, in particular, be the "always baby-eating evil from birth, kill them on sight without remorse" ones.)</p>(Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that it's just as sketchy as it ever was to have drow, in particular, be the "always baby-eating evil from birth, kill them on sight without remorse" ones.)Kalindlara (Contributor)2019-03-26T18:04:52ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...Isabelle Lee (alias of Kalindlara, Contributor)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#752020-03-04T08:44:30Z2019-03-26T18:01:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">MaxAstro wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If you need humanoid monsters that can be slain guilt-free, put bandit clothes on them and/or have them doing evil things.</p>
<p>If you need there to exist an entire race of humanoid monsters that is always evil, may I remind you (much as they were hoping you'd forget) that drow are still a thing? :P </blockquote><p>It's worth noting that drow are also not always evil, even as far back as Second Darkness. They possess free will and self-determination, and are no more "innately evil" than any other elf, or at worst, a tiefling or changeling. See <i>Adventurer's Guide</i> for more discussion on the redemption of drow. ^_^MaxAstro wrote:If you need humanoid monsters that can be slain guilt-free, put bandit clothes on them and/or have them doing evil things.
If you need there to exist an entire race of humanoid monsters that is always evil, may I remind you (much as they were hoping you'd forget) that drow are still a thing? :P
It's worth noting that drow are also not always evil, even as far back as Second Darkness. They possess free will and self-determination, and are no more "innately evil" than any other...Isabelle Lee (alias of Kalindlara, Contributor)2019-03-26T18:01:52ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...TOZ (alias of TriOmegaZero)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#742019-03-27T12:55:45Z2019-03-26T17:57:57Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Fine. Perhaps I've gotten the entirely wrong idea about goblins and they're really fine people, no different from humans really. All the propaganda about pyromania and such is just vile lies from humans.
</p>
</blockquote><p>You do that a lot.thejeff wrote:Fine. Perhaps I've gotten the entirely wrong idea about goblins and they're really fine people, no different from humans really. All the propaganda about pyromania and such is just vile lies from humans.
You do that a lot.TOZ (alias of TriOmegaZero)2019-03-26T17:57:57ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...Kalindlara (Contributor)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#732019-03-27T10:20:02Z2019-03-26T17:56:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Deadmanwalking wrote:</div><blockquote> ...Elves of Golarion mentions the nation of Jinin in Tian Xia precisely zero times, and barely mentions those elven cultural centers outside Kyonin.</blockquote><p>Admittedly, Tian Xia probably wasn't written at all back then. Just ask the <a href="https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Truecolor%20Dye" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Miracle Samurai</a>. ^_^Deadmanwalking wrote:...Elves of Golarion mentions the nation of Jinin in Tian Xia precisely zero times, and barely mentions those elven cultural centers outside Kyonin.
Admittedly, Tian Xia probably wasn't written at all back then. Just ask the Miracle Samurai. ^_^Kalindlara (Contributor)2019-03-26T17:56:39ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#722020-03-04T11:24:05Z2019-03-26T17:25:23Z<p>Fine. Perhaps I've gotten the entirely wrong idea about goblins and they're really fine people, no different from humans really. All the propaganda about pyromania and such is just vile lies from humans.</p>Fine. Perhaps I've gotten the entirely wrong idea about goblins and they're really fine people, no different from humans really. All the propaganda about pyromania and such is just vile lies from humans.thejeff2019-03-26T17:25:23ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...Elfteirohhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#712019-03-27T00:53:26Z2019-03-26T16:41:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Elfteiroh wrote:</div><blockquote> [...]</blockquote><p>Humans can be plenty evil - probably more so than goblins in many ways, since we organize and plan better.
<p>Humans - with individual exceptions we classify as mental illnesses - don't culturally reach what been shown as the goblin default. We don't have cultures that set things on fire just to watch them burn with no concern for what gets damaged in the process. We might use fire to kill and persecute enemies, but that's not what I'm talking about. It's the crazy that I find outside the cultural range, not the evil. </blockquote><p>Now that I think about this, a Goblin Raid is basically a Riot. And even then, goblins are not ALWAYS raiding. In fact, at the start of RotR, it's even said that a raid this size is uncommon for a goblin tribe to do it on their own... They are basically prompt to riots, even more so with the <s>right</s>wrong leaders.
<p>You paint them like they are ALWAYS setting things to fire, and killing, but that's false. Usually, they scuttle in the dark, looting what they need from junkyards. Bloody and fiery raids aren't the norm. As a French Canadian, I have SEEN groups of local people set fire to cars because of a Hockey game the home team <i>won</i>...</p>
<p>So yeah, as much as some humans can act like Goblins when they can, so there must be Goblins that act like humans when they can.
<br />
And that's basically what Paizo people have been trying to tell us for <i>years</i>. And telling <i>them</i> that they are wrong about their own setting is a little bit weird. (That's not directed to you, I just remember seeing something like this recently, no offence).</p>thejeff wrote:Elfteiroh wrote: [...]
Humans can be plenty evil - probably more so than goblins in many ways, since we organize and plan better. Humans - with individual exceptions we classify as mental illnesses - don't culturally reach what been shown as the goblin default. We don't have cultures that set things on fire just to watch them burn with no concern for what gets damaged in the process. We might use fire to kill and persecute enemies, but that's not what I'm talking about. It's...Elfteiroh2019-03-26T16:41:29ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...Deadmanwalkinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#702019-03-27T12:54:34Z2019-03-26T16:37:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote>Humans - with individual exceptions we classify as mental illnesses - don't culturally reach what been shown as the goblin default. We don't have cultures that set things on fire just to watch them burn with no concern for what gets damaged in the process. We might use fire to kill and persecute enemies, but that's not what I'm talking about. It's the crazy that I find outside the cultural range, not the evil. </blockquote><p>Given that the Aztecs literally believed they had to commit a rather ridiculous number of ritualistic and often deeply cruel murders every year or <i>the world would literally end</i>, I'm not at all convinced that there's a depth of crazy humans can't hit as a specific culture.
<p>Setting things on fire just to watch them burn is also a very real tendency of human beings in certain high stress situations. More than one city burned after being sacked simply because the victorious soldiers wanted to set something on fire. Which makes using it as evidence that goblins aren't like humans more than a trifle dubious...</p>thejeff wrote:Humans - with individual exceptions we classify as mental illnesses - don't culturally reach what been shown as the goblin default. We don't have cultures that set things on fire just to watch them burn with no concern for what gets damaged in the process. We might use fire to kill and persecute enemies, but that's not what I'm talking about. It's the crazy that I find outside the cultural range, not the evil.
Given that the Aztecs literally believed they had to commit a rather...Deadmanwalking2019-03-26T16:37:34ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#692019-03-26T16:40:11Z2019-03-26T16:25:53Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Elfteiroh wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote> [...], since it's way outside any range of cultural behavior we see in real world cultures. [...]</blockquote><p>I... (sadly) wouldn't be so sure of that... There have been some... very unsavory and frankly hysterical events in human history that would fall in line with their behavior... The Rwandan genocide would be my prime example, with 500k to 1M deaths in about two months.
<p>I would agree it's more widespread, but the above event could be reproduced with the right cultural and environment parameters, and the usual goblin upbringing is very close to these, IMHO. </blockquote><p>Humans can be plenty evil - probably more so than goblins in many ways, since we organize and plan better.
<p>Humans - with individual exceptions we classify as mental illnesses - don't culturally reach what been shown as the goblin default. We don't have cultures that set things on fire just to watch them burn with no concern for what gets damaged in the process. We might use fire to kill and persecute enemies, but that's not what I'm talking about. It's the crazy that I find outside the cultural range, not the evil.</p>Elfteiroh wrote:thejeff wrote: [...], since it's way outside any range of cultural behavior we see in real world cultures. [...]
I... (sadly) wouldn't be so sure of that... There have been some... very unsavory and frankly hysterical events in human history that would fall in line with their behavior... The Rwandan genocide would be my prime example, with 500k to 1M deaths in about two months. I would agree it's more widespread, but the above event could be reproduced with the right cultural...thejeff2019-03-26T16:25:53ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...Elfteirohhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#682019-03-26T15:35:31Z2019-03-26T15:35:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote> [...], since it's way outside any range of cultural behavior we see in real world cultures. [...]</blockquote><p>I... (sadly) wouldn't be so sure of that... There have been some... very unsavory and frankly hysterical events in human history that would fall in line with their behavior... The Rwandan genocide would be my prime example, with 500k to 1M deaths in about two months.
<p>I would agree it's more widespread, but the above event could be reproduced with the right cultural and environment parameters, and the usual goblin upbringing is very close to these, IMHO.</p>thejeff wrote:[...], since it's way outside any range of cultural behavior we see in real world cultures. [...]
I... (sadly) wouldn't be so sure of that... There have been some... very unsavory and frankly hysterical events in human history that would fall in line with their behavior... The Rwandan genocide would be my prime example, with 500k to 1M deaths in about two months. I would agree it's more widespread, but the above event could be reproduced with the right cultural and environment...Elfteiroh2019-03-26T15:35:31ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...Captain Morganhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#672019-03-26T15:35:15Z2019-03-26T15:29:00Z<p>Yeah, not all changes in the status quo are retcons. Sandpoint: Light of the Lost Coast focuses plenty on goblin menaces still active in the region, but it also mentions a tribe of neutral goblins who are spying on Sandpoint in an effort to learn how to fit into polite society, believing this to be a better path for goblins. Their leader having this realisation is not a retcon, and she's smart enough to realize Sandpoint has been marred by goblin violence too recently for them to accept goblin neighbors tofay, but she also thinks that won't always be true.</p>Yeah, not all changes in the status quo are retcons. Sandpoint: Light of the Lost Coast focuses plenty on goblin menaces still active in the region, but it also mentions a tribe of neutral goblins who are spying on Sandpoint in an effort to learn how to fit into polite society, believing this to be a better path for goblins. Their leader having this realisation is not a retcon, and she's smart enough to realize Sandpoint has been marred by goblin violence too recently for them to accept...Captain Morgan2019-03-26T15:29:00ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#662019-03-26T16:40:44Z2019-03-26T15:12:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">MaxAstro wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Most races I like to nuanced, "not everyone is evil all the time" view.</p>
<p>For some reason, though, I strongly prefer drow to be systematically evil, naturally horrible individuals. Non-evil drow rub me wrong in the same way that a non-evil aboleth would.</p>
<p>Agreed that they don't make good chaff, though. </blockquote><p>Tastes vary. I prefer drow that way as well - though if I was going to run a drow heavy campaign and focus on the drow culture and civilization, I'd probably work in some more "humanizing" traits. Possibly heretical suppressed good cults that could be PC allies and the like.
<p>In general though, when Drow appear on the surface, they're up to no good. </p>
<p>For me the problem with goblins isn't so much the "evil", but the "crazed homicidal pyromaniac" aspect that gets so played up in most of their appearances. It's very hard for me to take that as cultural variation, since it's way outside any range of cultural behavior we see in real world cultures. Obviously, they're not humans and this isn't the real world, but that pushes me towards "It's not cultural, goblins are just like that" rather than "It's just culture, raise them right and they'll be just like anyone else".
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I'm okay with individual exceptions to the norm, but that norm is way outside what I can accept as just "nurture".</p>MaxAstro wrote:Most races I like to nuanced, "not everyone is evil all the time" view.
For some reason, though, I strongly prefer drow to be systematically evil, naturally horrible individuals. Non-evil drow rub me wrong in the same way that a non-evil aboleth would.
Agreed that they don't make good chaff, though.
Tastes vary. I prefer drow that way as well - though if I was going to run a drow heavy campaign and focus on the drow culture and civilization, I'd probably work in some more...thejeff2019-03-26T15:12:59ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...MaxAstrohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#652019-03-26T14:53:52Z2019-03-26T14:53:52Z<p>Most races I like to nuanced, "not everyone is evil all the time" view.</p>
<p>For some reason, though, I strongly prefer drow to be systematically evil, naturally horrible individuals. Non-evil drow rub me wrong in the same way that a non-evil aboleth would.</p>
<p>Agreed that they don't make good chaff, though.</p>Most races I like to nuanced, "not everyone is evil all the time" view.
For some reason, though, I strongly prefer drow to be systematically evil, naturally horrible individuals. Non-evil drow rub me wrong in the same way that a non-evil aboleth would.
Agreed that they don't make good chaff, though.MaxAstro2019-03-26T14:53:52ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...WatersLethehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#642019-03-26T14:53:14Z2019-03-26T14:53:14Z<p>Oh, cultists are the new bandits, by the way.</p>Oh, cultists are the new bandits, by the way.WatersLethe2019-03-26T14:53:14ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#632020-03-04T08:41:45Z2019-03-26T14:50:08Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">MaxAstro wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If you need humanoid monsters that can be slain guilt-free, put bandit clothes on them and/or have them doing evil things.</p>
<p>If you need there to exist an entire race of humanoid monsters that is always evil, may I remind you (much as they were hoping you'd forget) that drow are still a thing? :P </blockquote><p>Drow don't really play the same role though - common weak chaff. They work better as major campaign arcs or archvillians.
</p>
Nor do they need to be always evil and I'm sure if we saw them more commonly they'd get the same kind of complaints. </p>
<p>Mostly though I generally agree: Don't kill them because they're shrot and green, kill them because this particular group is doing bad things. And goblins can still easily fill that role, even if there are exceptional individuals or even groups that don't.</p>MaxAstro wrote:If you need humanoid monsters that can be slain guilt-free, put bandit clothes on them and/or have them doing evil things.
If you need there to exist an entire race of humanoid monsters that is always evil, may I remind you (much as they were hoping you'd forget) that drow are still a thing? :P
Drow don't really play the same role though - common weak chaff. They work better as major campaign arcs or archvillians.
Nor do they need to be always evil and I'm sure if we saw...thejeff2019-03-26T14:50:08ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: I for one, welcome our Core Goblin Overlords...MaxAstrohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hz8&page=2?I-for-one-welcome-our-Core-Goblin-Overlords#622019-03-27T04:14:59Z2019-03-26T14:49:57Z<p>Times like this I wish we could post images, because the Road to El Dorado "both" gif was made for these moments. :P</p>Times like this I wish we could post images, because the Road to El Dorado "both" gif was made for these moments. :PMaxAstro2019-03-26T14:49:57Z