Champion Class


Rules Discussion

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So with the adjustment of Paladin being the LG version of the new(?) Champion class, I'm curious-what are you guys expecting from it? Personally, I'm hoping that the version we saw in the Playtest was the Champion class, with each version of it getting a little extra something to make them unique. I remember during the playtest I always felt like a fighter with healing than my own class, like i was missing just a little something extra, and I get the feeling that they were testing the chasis before customization. I'm hoping for Smite Evil to make a comeback in some form for either Lawful or Neutral Good, LG to keep with tradition or NG to make it just a an evil hunting thing, with LG getting something to do bonuses vs chaos as well and vice versa for CG.


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I'm not a fan of the class in the playtest, including the final 1.6 version. I'm hoping for a complete overhaul from the ground up. The paladin just doesn't feel anything like a paladin. There seems to be a focus on "class identity" in this edition, but the class identity they picked for the paladin is bad. The focus on heavy armor and defense are bad focuses. And basing them on reactions is just plain terrible. These reactions could be OK as an additional thing to do, but not as the signature ability of the class. Retributive strike basically discourages a paladin from going forward to attack, and instead incentivizes them to to stay back, because they need to be standing next to an ally (or 5 feet away with a reach weapon) to be able to use it. Smite Evil really needs to come back as the core ability, not something at 12th level that kind of resembles smite evil, but still requires them to hurt someone while you watch.

Likewise the 1.6 expansion to NG and CG was not the way I want them to go at all. They arbitrarily picked combat styles to go with the alignments, and still have them stuck to reactions. The idea that LG is always defensive and NG always focused on redemption are really terrible in my mind. Even Liberator for CG seems more like pigeonholing than a logical extension of being a holy champion of that alignment. Alignment shouldn't be a class path, those should be independent.

Frankly, the class should thrown away and rebuilt more like the PF1 paladin. I often rail against the alchemist, because the implementation in the playtest was horrible, but the paladin is the other major problem, not because of effectiveness, but because it seems to completely lose sight of what a paladin is and just think it's an armor-guy who hurts people who hurt others (but only if they're standing close enough). It should be an active crusader against evil.


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glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks the champeon playtest was trash.
I wanted open ot any good. making alt alignment paladinlike classes and design them around alignment is not a good idea imo.
the pf1 paladin could have been put in and opened up to any good as nothing in its description made it sound like it couldnt gain its powers from any of the 3 celestial planes and one could have been made for pf2 in the spirit of pf1.
no matter what though Paizo would still ahve lost customers.. or atleast those who wont support pathfinder 2e ruleset.


Steelfiredragon wrote:

glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks the champeon playtest was trash.

I wanted open ot any good. making alt alignment paladinlike classes and design them around alignment is not a good idea imo.
the pf1 paladin could have been put in and opened up to any good as nothing in its description made it sound like it couldnt gain its powers from any of the 3 celestial planes and one could have been made for pf2 in the spirit of pf1.
no matter what though Paizo would still ahve lost customers.. or atleast those who wont support pathfinder 2e ruleset.

I would rather have a new class than paladin being free of the restriction. That was also kinda of asked in the surveys so this probably was hopefully a decision based on that.

And about the lost support... Ye probable will lose a few and gain more than that back at least in the first few months. We need to see if the game will stick.

Silver Crusade

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Also pretty discontented with the strong "typecasting" of martials in the Playtest, especially the Champion with it's melee/heavy armor. I'm hoping this is fixed in the Core, and if not, that we get some Champion class archetypes quickly to open it up.


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I'm glad the Champion is open to "any good", but I won't consider it more than 1/3 of a full class until ALL of the alignments have a Champion. I'm also hoping the choice of alignment isn't going to be a determinator on what class features you get (the way 1.6 did).


I think they mentioned making sure Champions got some archery options, which would flesh out the option space a bit and give a reason to use a light-armor Champion.

I’m cool with the class starting out a bit more in the “protect” than “smite” category personally- Lay on Hands is what I enjoyed about Paladin in PF1. But, for those not a fan of the built-in retribution mechanic- I’d bet that’s something you only need to deal with temporarily. Class archetypes (i.e. PF1-style archetypes) will have their rules included in the CRB so they’ll be fully supported later. Stuff like Fighter AoOs and Champion retributions seem like they’ll be good swap material.

Really looking forward to the evil ones once we eventually make it to that side of the alignment pool.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Agreed about the disappointment with the heavy armor, reactionary playstyle. Retributive Strike was a dumpster fire. If it's still around, and if Paladins are still pigeonholed into heavy armor, I'll consider it a dead class.


WatersLethe wrote:
Agreed about the disappointment with the heavy armor, reactionary playstyle. Retributive Strike was a dumpster fire. If it's still around, and if Paladins are still pigeonholed into heavy armor, I'll consider it a dead class.

Does heavy armor proficiency not carry down to light armor proficiency? I thought it did.


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1.6 did exactly what I want for a Paladin class, making it so bad that no one will want to play it. Hopefully the final version doesn’t demonstrate any unfortunate signs of design competence.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Agreed about the disappointment with the heavy armor, reactionary playstyle. Retributive Strike was a dumpster fire. If it's still around, and if Paladins are still pigeonholed into heavy armor, I'll consider it a dead class.
Does heavy armor proficiency not carry down to light armor proficiency? I thought it did.

It's the bonus to AC while wearing heavy armor but not other kinds of armor that has me concerned. It's easy to say "Oh, just ignore it" but like I always say, mechanics left on the vine exert a constant subconscious pressure to act a certain way.

Silver Crusade

Tectorman wrote:
I'm glad the Champion is open to "any good", but I won't consider it more than 1/3 of a full class until ALL of the alignments have a Champion. I'm also hoping the choice of alignment isn't going to be a determinator on what class features you get (the way 1.6 did).

Erik said something yesterday to the effect of "I'm sure we'll do the N and E alignments in the future." Don't recall whether it was on here or on Reddit.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

FWIW, I liked 1.6 Champion. I've always seen Paladins as "defenders of the meek" before "smiters of evil". More to the point, if a Paladin has to choose between protecting the helpless and smiting the evil, protecting those that can't protect themselves should be the first priority, IMO.

That said, Retributive Strike in the playtest had some reliability issues. However, those were well reported and acknowledged by Paizo, so I fully expect we'll see changes in the final version to make it easier to pull off. At the very least I'd put money that there will be a way to move-and-strike to defend allies that are slightly out of reach.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm a fan of a paladin class that winds up being a defender or tank or whatever term is appropriate, but basing the abilities on reactions sounds way too much like "please, GM, may I use my powers?"

They may not need to be all smite-y, but they do need active choices, not just waiting around for circumstances.

I also don't mind them having gold medal armor abilities so long as the Fighter has access to no less than very close silver level.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think the issue is less about it being a reaction and more about it being a reaction that is often hard to pull off, which is why I'm so confident we'll see a mobile version.

If it becomes possible to basically upgrade it into "I get to use my powers any time any party member is attacked", well, the GM can deny you use of your powers, but only by giving you the win anyway. :)


WatersLethe wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Agreed about the disappointment with the heavy armor, reactionary playstyle. Retributive Strike was a dumpster fire. If it's still around, and if Paladins are still pigeonholed into heavy armor, I'll consider it a dead class.
Does heavy armor proficiency not carry down to light armor proficiency? I thought it did.
It's the bonus to AC while wearing heavy armor but not other kinds of armor that has me concerned. It's easy to say "Oh, just ignore it" but like I always say, mechanics left on the vine exert a constant subconscious pressure to act a certain way.

Ah, I didn’t remember that.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

My table loved the Paladin and loved Retributive Strike. They thought it was one of the most powerful things they played with. It only forces you to be at the back if no one else in the party wants to be at the front. Our barbarian became best buds with the paladin after a Retributive Strike saved him from Drakus the Taker. Even if everyone else is ranged, cramped dungeon quarters often mean you'll still be in range for it.

The big problems I've seen in actual play involve huge+ creatures, since you can't flank them and be in range, and mobility, since other melee classes usually outrun the paladin to the frontlm line. Also, the Liberator and Redeemer reactions seem thematically appropriate but less interesting to use.

I could see shifting the focus to be more like AoO on the fighter though-- a first level feature that you can take feats to enhance, rather than having other features go towards enhancing it.


Ultimately all I was after was not cheapening the "Paladin" label by sticking it on anything and everything. I've played Paladins in plenty of games where the class was just bad, so that's not really an impediment to doing so again.


Doktor Weasel wrote:
the paladin is [a] major problem, not because of effectiveness, but because it seems to completely lose sight of what a paladin is and just think it's an armor-guy who hurts people who hurt others (but only if they're standing close enough). It should be an active crusader against evil.

This... it is the only thing I really don't like about Pathfinder 2 so far.

Maybe the "active champion" will be available in a future product?


I love the Champion and it is one of my personal selling points (and I basically hate PF1). :)

I think it fits perfectly some of the PF2 concepts: it needs to be different in terms of actual gameplay. You can be a crusader even of you are a Bard, i.e. IT's not a mechanical thing.
And the Champion is not a 1e Paladin conversion. 2e is a new game, not a strict evolution or morph of 1e and should be taken for what it is. It is a high fantasy game with a focus on interactions and adventuring as whole with classes being little games on their own. Straight extra damage against evil and alignment restrictions would have been redundant: I think they did a great job removing a concept that can easily be roleplayed or stay in the Cleric's niche. While it perfectly fits an old school feel, it doesn't match the modern and colorful nature of Pf2 design.


Good for you, and yeah, it's basically because it doesn't fit my expectations: if there would have been a new class called the "Protector" or some such with the same abilities that the Paladin has now - that would have felt okay for me.


Maybe this leaves design room for the Inquisitor (or some new class) to be the offense oriented holy warrior? Not at convenient as having it from the get go but could be something.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Uchuujin wrote:
Maybe this leaves design room for the Inquisitor (or some new class) to be the offense oriented holy warrior? Not at convenient as having it from the get go but could be something.

They could easily have more offense oriented paladin class archetypes.


I am playing a Champion ( redeemer ), but I am currently not satisfied with it.

The major issues i am facing are the followings:

1- Multiclassing restrictions.

In this system, every class has to max out his primary stat, so for melee will be STR, DEX for a ranged and his spellcasting ability for a caster.

That said, if you plan to wear a plate ( bad idea, since an elven chainshirt will give you more armor ), you will mostly go with base dex.

But there's a problem.
By having 10 dex you won't be able to do the follow some paths:

-Rogue
-Ranger
-Fighter
-Monk

Shortly, everything but barbarian which could give you customization in terms of melee/tanking stuff.

If you go 18 str and 14 dex, then you have some points left for const ( which is mandatory for a tank ) and eventually Charisma, which is your base deity spells modifier ( /facepalm ).

We are not considering here INT or WIS, which means that you won't be able to multiclass into

-Druid
-Cleric
-Wizard
-Alchemist

Shortly, you have to give up something which you can't ( since in this version a +1 is everything, imagine your focus spells with a 10 or 12 base charisma. Good luck with that ).

2) Horrible traits meant for protection.

- Champion's Reaction needs 2 checks instead of one.
- Champion's Reaction range
- "Exalt" is almost impossible to use. First because it is always better to split up to avoid and AOE. Second, because if even if it will happen that an aoe occurs, and you have you allies in 15feet range, you will also have to have the enemy which cast the aoe in reach! Almost impossible.
- 2 talents ( and next to an ally ) to being able to use shield of reckoning, which can't be use with your extra shield block reaction or divine reflexes.
- Divine Grace as reaction, as circumstance bonuse, against a single magical effect.
- Shields with durability ( which means you must have the skill to repair them, up to legendary, and maybe the assurance talent, quick repair, and other skills traits ). More or less is like you are forced to give up one of your 3 legendary skills, by putting points into one where you don't have any positive modifier ( it's unlikely we will see a 18 int champion ). You could cheat indeed, by knowing you will be in party with somebody able to repair your shield, but even if the possibility to repair it as an action during a fight could drastically change the outcome.
- Full plate which gives less armor than an elven chainmail.
- 1 Action always wasted to raise your shield ( while fighters with paragon's guard will be laughing at you ).

Currently, I regret making a Champion ( even if we are lvl 1 ).


K1 wrote:


I am playing a Champion ( redeemer ), but I am currently not satisfied with it.

The major issues i am facing are the followings:

1- Multiclassing restrictions.

In this system, every class has to max out his primary stat, so for melee will be STR, DEX for a ranged and his spellcasting ability for a caster.

That said, if you plan to wear a plate ( bad idea, since an elven chainshirt will give you more armor ), you will mostly go with base dex.

How does that even happen? I can understand that the elven chainshirt has less penalties but how a total AC of 5 is bigger than a total AC of 6?

K1 wrote:


But there's a problem.
By having 10 dex you won't be able to do the follow some paths:

-Rogue
-Ranger
-Fighter
-Monk

Shortly, everything but barbarian which could give you customization in terms of melee/tanking stuff.

If you go 18 str and 14 dex, then you have some points left for const ( which is mandatory for a tank ) and eventually Charisma, which is your base deity spells modifier ( /facepalm ).

We are not considering here INT or WIS, which means that you won't be able to multiclass into

Nothing is stopping you to have 14 dex/int/wis ... 18 in str, 16 con, Cha isn't really nesscessary (depending on how you want your spell focus to be used if you want to cast offesive things i recomend a 14 here) and 14 on a secondary stat. Or going 16 str,16 con, 14 cha, 14 tertiary.

But what you need to decide if that is worth it. If you want multiple multiclasses it might be worth it to instead use a Chainmail/Splint Mail and remember it's possible to multiclass later too... Level 5 you get a second set of boosts and level 6 you can start multiclass

K1 wrote:


-Druid
-Cleric
-Wizard
-Alchemist

Shortly, you have to give up something which you can't ( since in this version a +1 is everything, imagine your focus spells with a 10 or 12 base charisma. Good luck with that ).

Lay on Hands for healing is the same... And for the undead damage, i doubt you will have much trouble with undead when you can deal good and positive damage with a paladin pretty easily.

Weapon surge and several other cleric powers can be used without any roll and just boost your abilities. And spells like true strike too(You can get easily from a multiclass in sorcerer). You can invest just 14 on your secondary stat and dump charisma as a paladin pretty easy.
And Litany of Righteousness, Champion's Sacrifice, Hero's Defiance don't need charisma for example.
The only thing that bothers me is the damage from divine smite being based on cha...

K1 wrote:


2) Horrible traits meant for protection.

- Champion's Reaction needs 2 checks instead of one.

What do you mean by this?

Retributive Strike is only one check to hit... Independend if your opponent hits or not.
Glimpse of Redemption has no check.
Liberating Step has no check.

K1 wrote:


- Champion's Reaction range

Can easily agree with this one. 20 or 30 feet would make them a lot more usable... But i guess 15 isn't that bad.

K1 wrote:


- "Exalt" is almost impossible to use. First because it is always better to split up to avoid and AOE. Second, because if even if it will happen that an aoe occurs, and you have you allies in 15feet range, you will also have to have the enemy which cast the aoe in reach! Almost impossible.

This one i can agree they feels a bit weak but still it's pretty nice with the free AoOs or the free stride. Even if the other one feels a bit worse...

K1 wrote:


- 2 talents ( and next to an ally ) to being able to use shield of reckoning, which can't be use with your extra shield block reaction or divine reflexes.

Yeah but you can use it and then shield blook with the extra reaction... It's just a better version of the other one after all.

K1 wrote:


- Divine Grace as reaction, as circumstance bonuse, against a single magical effect.
- Shields with durability ( which means you must have the skill to repair them, up to legendary, and maybe the assurance talent, quick repair, and other skills traits ). More or less is like you are forced to give up one of your 3 legendary skills, by putting points into one where you don't have any positive modifier ( it's unlikely we will see a 18 int champion ). You could cheat indeed, by knowing you will be in party with somebody able to repair your shield, but even if the possibility to repair it as an action during a fight could drastically change the outcome.

Divine grace... Is not good but it's not the worst having +2 on every save for a reaction is pretty great it's like getting +rank on it.

Or not use a shield... I mean with crafting up to trained and quick fix you can fix your shield easily after the battle. Or you can carry a secondary shield... But you will need master or better to do so in battle.

K1 wrote:


- Full plate which gives less armor than an elven chainmail.

How is this possible... Elven chain gives +2 and has a dexcap of 3... So 5. Fullplate gives 6...

K1 wrote:


- 1 Action always wasted to raise your shield ( while fighters with paragon's guard will be laughing at you ).

Currently, I regret making a Champion ( even if we are lvl 1 ).

Well if you dislike that i recommend multiclass fighter for shield Reactive Shield or follow a path that does not require a shield... Blade ally or steed, and champion can raise shield always with shield paragon... Without using a stance action including.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
K1 wrote:

I am playing a Champion ( redeemer ), but I am currently not satisfied with it.

The major issues i am facing are the followings:

1- Multiclassing restrictions.

In this system, every class has to max out his primary stat, so for melee will be STR, DEX for a ranged and his spellcasting ability for a caster.

That said, if you plan to wear a plate ( bad idea, since an elven chainshirt will give you more armor ), you will mostly go with base dex.

But there's a problem.
By having 10 dex you won't be able to do the follow some paths:

-Rogue
-Ranger
-Fighter
-Monk

Shortly, everything but barbarian which could give you customization in terms of melee/tanking stuff.

If you go 18 str and 14 dex, then you have some points left for const ( which is mandatory for a tank ) and eventually Charisma, which is your base deity spells modifier ( /facepalm ).

We are not considering here INT or WIS, which means that you won't be able to multiclass into

-Druid
-Cleric
-Wizard
-Alchemist

Shortly, you have to give up something which you can't ( since in this version a +1 is everything, imagine your focus spells with a 10 or 12 base charisma. Good luck with that ).

2) Horrible traits meant for protection.

- Champion's Reaction needs 2 checks instead of one.
- Champion's Reaction range
- "Exalt" is almost impossible to use. First because it is always better to split up to avoid and AOE. Second, because if even if it will happen that an aoe occurs, and you have you allies in 15feet range, you will also have to have the enemy which cast the aoe in reach! Almost impossible.
- 2 talents ( and next to an ally ) to being able to use shield of reckoning, which can't be use with your extra shield block reaction or divine reflexes.
- Divine Grace as reaction, as circumstance bonuse, against a single magical effect.
- Shields with durability ( which means you must have the skill to repair them, up to legendary, and maybe the assurance talent, quick repair, and other skills traits ). More or...

other then the alchemist you don't need to max your stat at lv1

honestly i would argue starting at 16 might be the better choice for several classes


1) As for elven chain mail, it's a chainmail which give 2 more armor ( and can be modded as any other else chainmail ).

So 7 vs 6 (plate)
or 10 vs 9, if you consider the runes

2) About the shield, the point is that a champion is a class meant to be a protector, and it sucks the fact a fighter multiclassing champion could do a better job.

If I wanted to go not shield based I would have gone fighter, with a multiclass depends my gameplay.

The fighter +2 hit is currently not comparable with any other stuff.

And talking about tanking, the fighter has better traits for a better overall, and by hitting lvl 12 you will always have your shield raised. so 1 extra action per round.

You won't hit legendary in defense, which will probably give a champion, or a monk, the right to be the frontline.

3) Finally, about champion's reaction, you need:

1) Ally in range
2) Enemy in range ( enemy next to you if you are a paladin ).

Ranged shot?
Can't use reaction.

Aoe from a caster?
Can't use reaction.

You are the target?
Can't use the reaction.

There are, imho, way too many blind spots for that reaction.


Also for multiclass champion goes VERY well with bard multiclass. Getting inspire courage eventually is really good and spell casting ability is handy that also is keyed on one of your focus stats.

Gives you a very battlefield comander type build. A lot of times it seems if you are up in combat the third action is just a wild swing for the fences. if you can inspire courage that not only helps you but everybody in your group.

Eventually being able to pick up sooth and the useful bard cantrips makes for a pretty soild utility spell casting for a front line tank.


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An Elven chain shirt gives +2 armour.
Full plate gives +6

So what on Earth are you talking about? By my reading Elven chain gives at best +5 AC if you have 16 Dex

*

What do you mean that the Champion Reaction needs 2 checks instead of one? It is one reaction ...

*

+2 to saves is strong in this edition . If you don’t agree then inherently you don’t think the numbers are that tight so therefore your point about needing to max you attacking score wouldn’t make sense. It is one of the other. If each bonus is not that big a deal then you can afford a 16 but divine grace is rubbish

If the maths is so restrictive that you need the extra +1 to hit then divine grace is very powerful

*

This is a group game so there is a chance that someone else would have the crafting skill to fix your shield . That is how these games work

*

Limited AOO mean you are allowed to move and so are your allies . So 15 foot reaction range shouldn’t be awful

*

Isn’t their a feat that lets you raise your shield as a reaction ? So no wasted action. I am also sure that other things champions get will offset whatever paragon guard does. Such as : healing yourself and better armour proficiency scaling

Are you playing a variant of the game that is all about one-upping other party members? Why would a fighter “laugh at you”. Bizarre


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K1 wrote:

1) As for elven chain mail, it's a chainmail which give 2 more armor ( and can be modded as any other else chainmail ).

So 7 vs 6 (plate)
or 10 vs 9, if you consider the runes

2) About the shield, the point is that a champion is a class meant to be a protector, and it sucks the fact a fighter multiclassing champion could do a better job.

If I wanted to go not shield based I would have gone fighter, with a multiclass depends my gameplay.

The fighter +2 hit is currently not comparable with any other stuff.

And talking about tanking, the fighter has better traits for a better overall, and by hitting lvl 12 you will always have your shield raised. so 1 extra action per round.

You won't hit legendary in defense, which will probably give a champion, or a monk, the right to be the frontline.

3) Finally, about champion's reaction, you need:

1) Ally in range
2) Enemy in range ( enemy next to you if you are a paladin ).

Ranged shot?
Can't use reaction.

Aoe from a caster?
Can't use reaction.

You are the target?
Can't use the reaction.

There are, imho, way too many blind spots for that reaction.

You are utterly wrong about Elven chain . It gives +2 armour.

It doesn’t give 2 “more” armour. It gives 2 armour

It removes the check penalty and the noisy trait and has whatever benefit Mithral does. That is it

It is also “Uncommon” so not guaranteed for a build. Most GMs could easily say it was Elf only or that you have to do a mission for elves to get access


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Or kill an elf who is wearing it....


David knott 242 wrote:

Or kill an elf who is wearing it....

Well that one goes without saying :-P

Silver Crusade

Elven Chain is just a Chain Shirt, not Chainmail.

Mithril Chainmail can be a thing yes, but it’s not called Elven Chain.


Chain shirts and other light armor are pretty much the worst kind of armor a champion can wear. They are one of only 2 classes that get access to armor specialization effects, and those only work for medium and heavy armor. So even Dex-champions are pushed towards using at least medium armor.


I was wandering like you at first bu, because regards it was referred to them, still it gives the +2 modifier on the app, I am not sure anymore.


However, if it comes out not true, then we could add to champion issues the

"A naked monk has the same armor as me".

Flat bonus = same
Lvl = same
Proficiency = Same
Dex = Monk 5 / Champion +0
Armor = Monk 0 / Champion 6 ( plate )
Bonus Armor = Monk +3 ( bracers ) / Champion +3 ( runes )
Stance = Monk +1 ( crane ) / Champion +0
Shield = Same

Definitely not so good.


Maybe the 7 comes from a maxed dex?


Lanathar wrote:
K1 wrote:

1) As for elven chain mail, it's a chainmail which give 2 more armor ( and can be modded as any other else chainmail ).

So 7 vs 6 (plate)
or 10 vs 9, if you consider the runes

2) About the shield, the point is that a champion is a class meant to be a protector, and it sucks the fact a fighter multiclassing champion could do a better job.

If I wanted to go not shield based I would have gone fighter, with a multiclass depends my gameplay.

The fighter +2 hit is currently not comparable with any other stuff.

And talking about tanking, the fighter has better traits for a better overall, and by hitting lvl 12 you will always have your shield raised. so 1 extra action per round.

You won't hit legendary in defense, which will probably give a champion, or a monk, the right to be the frontline.

3) Finally, about champion's reaction, you need:

1) Ally in range
2) Enemy in range ( enemy next to you if you are a paladin ).

Ranged shot?
Can't use reaction.

Aoe from a caster?
Can't use reaction.

You are the target?
Can't use the reaction.

There are, imho, way too many blind spots for that reaction.

You are utterly wrong about Elven chain . It gives +2 armour.

It doesn’t give 2 “more” armour. It gives 2 armour

It removes the check penalty and the noisy trait and has whatever benefit Mithral does. That is it

It is also “Uncommon” so not guaranteed for a build. Most GMs could easily say it was Elf only or that you have to do a mission for elves to get access

That does not appear to be correct. Elven chainmail gives you a +2 item bonus and no armor check penalty. So basically it has a built in +2 armor potency rune but since item bonuses do not stack you can't put another rune onto it. It basically is by default chainmail +2 so the correct comparison for the initial poster would be chainmail +2 vs full plate +2 which has the full plate better AC wise.

The mistake appears to be not giving full plate matching improvements for quality in the first example and then adding an armor potency rune on top of what is granted by elven chainmail which won't work because item bonuses don't stack.


Lanathar wrote:

An Elven chain shirt gives +2 armour.

Full plate gives +6

So what on Earth are you talking about? By my reading Elven chain gives at best +5 AC if you have 16 Dex

*

What do you mean that the Champion Reaction needs 2 checks instead of one? It is one reaction ...

*

+2 to saves is strong in this edition . If you don’t agree then inherently you don’t think the numbers are that tight so therefore your point about needing to max you attacking score wouldn’t make sense. It is one of the other. If each bonus is not that big a deal then you can afford a 16 but divine grace is rubbish

If the maths is so restrictive that you need the extra +1 to hit then divine grace is very powerful

*

This is a group game so there is a chance that someone else would have the crafting skill to fix your shield . That is how these games work

*

Limited AOO mean you are allowed to move and so are your allies . So 15 foot reaction range shouldn’t be awful

*

Isn’t their a feat that lets you raise your shield as a reaction ? So no wasted action. I am also sure that other things champions get will offset whatever paragon guard does. Such as : healing yourself and better armour proficiency scaling

Are you playing a variant of the game that is all about one-upping other party members? Why would a fighter “laugh at you”. Bizarre

God, I truly don't where to start.

From not understanding because the paragon stance is godlike or for wasting one reaction ( a general one, which is the only one available for shield of reckoning ) for raise shield.

Or a paladin knowing by background that he will ever have to rely in a "blacksmither" in every expedition he will take part into.

Or considering Divine Grace a generic +2 saves and not only "against magic".

And I could continue over and over.
Chain Mail apart, which in this case would be a misunderstanding from the app, you should do an overall review.

@Kaid: I thought about that too, but it is customized with any rune, and it says it can be modded like any mithral counterpart.

And to be clear, is not about "it won't make any sense", which we could agree. It's about how it still works after weeks since it was asked.


Just for clarity.
Elven chain is a chain shirt made of mithral (page 579) that glitters in even the faintest light. It grants a +2 item bonus to AC and has no check penalty.

Created by elven artisans employing ancient crafting techniques, elven chain is exceptionally quiet. Unlike other chain shirts—even other mithral chain shirts—elven chain does not have the noisy trait. This suit of armor can be etched with runes like any other mithral chain shirt.

So basically it is a chain mail shirt with a +2 item bonus on it. You can put runes on to it but the only armor improvement you could do on it would be to etch a +3 armor rune. Adding a +1 or +2 ac rune would have no effect.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
K1 wrote:

However, if it comes out not true, then we could add to champion issues the

"A naked monk has the same armor as me".

Flat bonus = same
Lvl = same
Proficiency = Same
Dex = Monk 5 / Champion +0
Armor = Monk 0 / Champion 6 ( plate )
Bonus Armor = Monk +3 ( bracers ) / Champion +3 ( runes )
Stance = Monk +1 ( crane ) / Champion +0
Shield = Same

Definitely not so good.

Well yea, that's by design, Monk's have equal AC proficiency as the Champion, that's a feature.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
K1 wrote:

However, if it comes out not true, then we could add to champion issues the

"A naked monk has the same armor as me".

Flat bonus = same
Lvl = same
Proficiency = Same
Dex = Monk 5 / Champion +0
Armor = Monk 0 / Champion 6 ( plate )
Bonus Armor = Monk +3 ( bracers ) / Champion +3 ( runes )
Stance = Monk +1 ( crane ) / Champion +0
Shield = Same

Definitely not so good.

How determined are you to let reality get in the way of your complaints?

Your example above ignores/assumes:

- only one type of monk gets that AC boost - you have picked a specific one
- says “naked” monk but gives him a shield
- is using level 10 as an example it seems in which case you will have 3 or 4 physical resistance
- you like shields so you will have shield ally . So at the very least a more effective shield
-your damage output will likely be better than the monk as he has started with 18 Dex rather than 18 strength
- you are NOT playing a game of top trumps with the monk or any other class for that matter

What exactly is your expectation here?

Have you not seen the monk threads complaining about how unviable they apparently are due to low armour

Your weird comparison here is for a very unusual and specific type of monk whereas every champion is probably going to be set up in a similar way unless they want a two handed reach weapon

Sure you can bend over backwards to try and find something like that but why is it worth the effort.

What game are you actually playing because one where you are seething with jealousy because the other defensive class has the same AC as you whilst you ignore all your other abilities doesn’t sound like the right game really


Vlorax wrote:
K1 wrote:

However, if it comes out not true, then we could add to champion issues the

"A naked monk has the same armor as me".

Flat bonus = same
Lvl = same
Proficiency = Same
Dex = Monk 5 / Champion +0
Armor = Monk 0 / Champion 6 ( plate )
Bonus Armor = Monk +3 ( bracers ) / Champion +3 ( runes )
Stance = Monk +1 ( crane ) / Champion +0
Shield = Same

Definitely not so good.

Well yea, that's by design, Monk's have equal AC proficiency as the Champion, that's a feature.

That's fine indeed.

The strange thing here is that even monks are allowed to use shields without any disadvantage.


Lanathar wrote:
K1 wrote:

However, if it comes out not true, then we could add to champion issues the

"A naked monk has the same armor as me".

Flat bonus = same
Lvl = same
Proficiency = Same
Dex = Monk 5 / Champion +0
Armor = Monk 0 / Champion 6 ( plate )
Bonus Armor = Monk +3 ( bracers ) / Champion +3 ( runes )
Stance = Monk +1 ( crane ) / Champion +0
Shield = Same

Definitely not so good.

How determined are you to let reality get in the way of your complaints?

Your example above ignores/assumes:

- only one type of monk gets that AC boost - you have picked a specific one
- says “naked” monk but gives him a shield
- is using level 10 as an example it seems in which case you will have 3 or 4 physical resistance
- you like shields so you will have shield ally . So at the very least a more effective shield
-your damage output will likely be better than the monk as he has started with 18 Dex rather than 18 strength
- you are NOT playing a game of top trumps with the monk or any other class for that matter

What exactly is your expectation here?

Have you not seen the monk threads complaining about how unviable they apparently are due to low armour

Your weird comparison here is for a very unusual and specific type of monk whereas every champion is probably going to be set up in a similar way unless they want a two handed reach weapon

Sure you can bend over backwards to try and find something like that but why is it worth the effort.

What game are you actually playing because one where you are seething with jealousy because the other defensive class has the same AC as you whilst you ignore all your other abilities doesn’t sound like the right game really

How is it possible that the one before you understood that it was just a list of possibilities in terms of classes and you don't?

What are you arguing for?
Does it hurt that I showed you my reasoning instead of saying "It has the same armor" ?

Really
And I share part of the guilt because of feeding you


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Generally a monk would be a bit less because traditionally not every monk is doing shield FU combat style. I am curious if there are going to be any tweaks down the line because I am not sure they envisioned every monk to be sporting tower shields.

That said even without the shield monks are designed to be a close match to champion for AC. Both are legendary at their respective speciality.


kaid wrote:

Generally a monk would be a bit less because traditionally not every monk is doing shield FU combat style. I am curious if there are going to be any tweaks down the line because I am not sure they envisioned every monk to be sporting tower shields.

That said even without the shield monks are designed to be a close match to champion for AC. Both are legendary at their respective speciality.

Currently a monk with no shield, but using crane stance, will have the same armor class as a non spellcasting class with shield and heavy armor

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sXNfGZI5AnqhP1atPduYDDhel6wjx4Gef5SkpZF NMio/edit

Here for a faster review of class scaling.

They are indeed close ( 48 vs 50 ), but we all know that here even a +1 could make a huge difference ( guess a +2 ).

But since, unless a specific attack/spell says otherwise, having 1 or both hands free makes no differences, the shield ( in terms of math ) is definitely worth it, if your main goal is to tank ( or simply survive ).


K1 wrote:
Lanathar wrote:

An Elven chain shirt gives +2 armour.

Full plate gives +6

So what on Earth are you talking about? By my reading Elven chain gives at best +5 AC if you have 16 Dex

*

What do you mean that the Champion Reaction needs 2 checks instead of one? It is one reaction ...

*

+2 to saves is strong in this edition . If you don’t agree then inherently you don’t think the numbers are that tight so therefore your point about needing to max you attacking score wouldn’t make sense. It is one of the other. If each bonus is not that big a deal then you can afford a 16 but divine grace is rubbish

If the maths is so restrictive that you need the extra +1 to hit then divine grace is very powerful

*

This is a group game so there is a chance that someone else would have the crafting skill to fix your shield . That is how these games work

*

Limited AOO mean you are allowed to move and so are your allies . So 15 foot reaction range shouldn’t be awful

*

Isn’t their a feat that lets you raise your shield as a reaction ? So no wasted action. I am also sure that other things champions get will offset whatever paragon guard does. Such as : healing yourself and better armour proficiency scaling

Are you playing a variant of the game that is all about one-upping other party members? Why would a fighter “laugh at you”. Bizarre

God, I truly don't where to start.

From not understanding because the paragon stance is godlike or for wasting one reaction ( a general one, which is the only one available for shield of reckoning ) for raise shield.

Or a paladin knowing by background that he will ever have to rely in a "blacksmither" in every expedition he will take part into.

Or considering Divine Grace a generic +2 saves and not only "against magic".

And I could continue over and over.
Chain Mail apart, which in this case would be a misunderstanding from the app, you should do an overall review.

@Kaid: I thought about that too, but it is customized with any...

Last I checked you rolled saves against most magic effects. So +2 to saves is a reasonable way of describing it

What is the paragon stance reference ? That doesn’t exist in the game (or at least not on AoN)


Lanathar wrote:
K1 wrote:
Lanathar wrote:

An Elven chain shirt gives +2 armour.

Full plate gives +6

So what on Earth are you talking about? By my reading Elven chain gives at best +5 AC if you have 16 Dex

*

What do you mean that the Champion Reaction needs 2 checks instead of one? It is one reaction ...

*

+2 to saves is strong in this edition . If you don’t agree then inherently you don’t think the numbers are that tight so therefore your point about needing to max you attacking score wouldn’t make sense. It is one of the other. If each bonus is not that big a deal then you can afford a 16 but divine grace is rubbish

If the maths is so restrictive that you need the extra +1 to hit then divine grace is very powerful

*

This is a group game so there is a chance that someone else would have the crafting skill to fix your shield . That is how these games work

*

Limited AOO mean you are allowed to move and so are your allies . So 15 foot reaction range shouldn’t be awful

*

Isn’t their a feat that lets you raise your shield as a reaction ? So no wasted action. I am also sure that other things champions get will offset whatever paragon guard does. Such as : healing yourself and better armour proficiency scaling

Are you playing a variant of the game that is all about one-upping other party members? Why would a fighter “laugh at you”. Bizarre

God, I truly don't where to start.

From not understanding because the paragon stance is godlike or for wasting one reaction ( a general one, which is the only one available for shield of reckoning ) for raise shield.

Or a paladin knowing by background that he will ever have to rely in a "blacksmither" in every expedition he will take part into.

Or considering Divine Grace a generic +2 saves and not only "against magic".

And I could continue over and over.
Chain Mail apart, which in this case would be a misunderstanding from the app, you should do an overall review.

@Kaid: I thought about that too, but it is

...

Here's the Paragon's Guard ( fighter feat ) https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=412


1 person marked this as a favorite.
K1 wrote:
Lanathar wrote:
K1 wrote:

However, if it comes out not true, then we could add to champion issues the

"A naked monk has the same armor as me".

Flat bonus = same
Lvl = same
Proficiency = Same
Dex = Monk 5 / Champion +0
Armor = Monk 0 / Champion 6 ( plate )
Bonus Armor = Monk +3 ( bracers ) / Champion +3 ( runes )
Stance = Monk +1 ( crane ) / Champion +0
Shield = Same

Definitely not so good.

How determined are you to let reality get in the way of your complaints?

Your example above ignores/assumes:

- only one type of monk gets that AC boost - you have picked a specific one
- says “naked” monk but gives him a shield
- is using level 10 as an example it seems in which case you will have 3 or 4 physical resistance
- you like shields so you will have shield ally . So at the very least a more effective shield
-your damage output will likely be better than the monk as he has started with 18 Dex rather than 18 strength
- you are NOT playing a game of top trumps with the monk or any other class for that matter

What exactly is your expectation here?

Have you not seen the monk threads complaining about how unviable they apparently are due to low armour

Your weird comparison here is for a very unusual and specific type of monk whereas every champion is probably going to be set up in a similar way unless they want a two handed reach weapon

Sure you can bend over backwards to try and find something like that but why is it worth the effort.

What game are you actually playing because one where you are seething with jealousy because the other defensive class has the same AC as you whilst you ignore all your other abilities doesn’t sound like the right game really

How is it possible that the one before you understood that it was just a list of possibilities in terms of classes and you don't?

What are you arguing for?
Does it hurt that I showed you my reasoning instead of saying "It has the same armor" ?

Really
And I share part of the guilt because...

Feeding me? What are you talking about?

Your reasoning is fine. My point is that it is not exactly the standard set up for a monk as they can pick other stances

I was arguing that your complaints are unreasonable and they really are. I was trying to include some of the other benefits or factors that you ignored - such as armour specialisation and having a more powerful shield

You also ignored all my other points and questions including why you are getting so angry


K1 wrote:
Lanathar wrote:
K1 wrote:
Lanathar wrote:

An Elven chain shirt gives +2 armour.

Full plate gives +6

So what on Earth are you talking about? By my reading Elven chain gives at best +5 AC if you have 16 Dex

*

What do you mean that the Champion Reaction needs 2 checks instead of one? It is one reaction ...

*

+2 to saves is strong in this edition . If you don’t agree then inherently you don’t think the numbers are that tight so therefore your point about needing to max you attacking score wouldn’t make sense. It is one of the other. If each bonus is not that big a deal then you can afford a 16 but divine grace is rubbish

If the maths is so restrictive that you need the extra +1 to hit then divine grace is very powerful

*

This is a group game so there is a chance that someone else would have the crafting skill to fix your shield . That is how these games work

*

Limited AOO mean you are allowed to move and so are your allies . So 15 foot reaction range shouldn’t be awful

*

Isn’t their a feat that lets you raise your shield as a reaction ? So no wasted action. I am also sure that other things champions get will offset whatever paragon guard does. Such as : healing yourself and better armour proficiency scaling

Are you playing a variant of the game that is all about one-upping other party members? Why would a fighter “laugh at you”. Bizarre

God, I truly don't where to start.

From not understanding because the paragon stance is godlike or for wasting one reaction ( a general one, which is the only one available for shield of reckoning ) for raise shield.

Or a paladin knowing by background that he will ever have to rely in a "blacksmither" in every expedition he will take part into.

Or considering Divine Grace a generic +2 saves and not only "against magic".

And I could continue over and over.
Chain Mail apart, which in this case would be a misunderstanding from the app, you should do an overall review.

@Kaid: I

...

The apostrophe explains why I couldn’t find it in the search

Isn’t it an action to enter a stance ? Albeit only one ?

I thought champions got extra reactions to counter how many different ones they can use . But I haven’t looked for a while to know when that is. And for all I know fighters get them as well

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