Face Warrior


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Hi all, im not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but its my first time so forgive me jeje.
Im thinkin in a mele fighter with a nice BAB who can also be the tank of the party and also be tje face of the group. I was playin with a Vanilla Swashbuclker but it doesnt work very good, we are a bard, rogue an me on the party and we always have problem in combat cos nobody can truly tank. Im playing with a 15 points build , so....if anybody can guide me i will be very thankfull :)


The best tank/face in the game is a paladin. Considering you have a rogue and a bard already in the party and your previous character was a swashbuckler this may not be a good fit. As long as the alignment restriction does not create problems you can probably make it work.

With a bard in the party why is the frontline fighter taking the role of face? Bards are probably the single best class to fulfill this role.


Yeah gotta say, other 2 can pick up that slack.


Would you mind filling us in on some details?

Starting Level, wealth, preferred alignment, and allowed books would be great to know.

Also, there are way to use Wisdom or Intelligence for your social skills, so there's no need to be charisma-based.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The best tank/face in the game is a paladin. Considering you have a rogue and a bard already in the party and your previous character was a swashbuckler this may not be a good fit. As long as the alignment restriction does not create problems you can probably make it work.

With a bard in the party why is the frontline fighter taking the role of face? Bards are probably the single best class to fulfill this role.

Cos i want to xD. Its just im always the front line but i suck in social skills, this time i want to be the face and the front line.

We start at lvl 1. Legal Good its not an option, we play the Skulls & Shackles campaing so we are all caotics, i like to much Antipaladin but i will lose smite good for almost all the fights. I can use only paizo books


There's the vindictive bastard paladin. Also i'd say look at bloodrager, especially steelbooded. Also consider slayer. It has no need for charisma, but give you enough skill points to train the skills you need, and studied a target applies to several face skills.

With a 15pt buy though you're going to struggle to get your 3 main physical stats at a level you want and still have enough to justify a solid charisma and the skill points to pump the social skills.


A paladin has the stats, if few skill points. Some archetypes help : I personally like the Knight of Coins. Clearly not ideal for your campaign though.

Bloodrager, with some select traits, could be good. Charisma, more skillpoints than the Pal... Lacking in relevant class skills but that's easily corrected if traits are in.
Plus some feats could help with the skill thing specifically, if needed. Cunning, Peerless Courtier, Martial Dominance even ...
Even good old Fighter could do a bit, with Versatile Training and some Cha, if you can afford it.

Slayer would work pretty well. Got the skills, Studied Target helps and they can grab a few helpful talents. Probably what I'd recommend here, really.

If you want more than basic skills, or more than what the slayer can give you, you'll likely need to look at the 3/4 bab classes.
I'd suggest Bard, even if you already have one. But you probably don't want to antagonize your fellow player, even if you're trying to tkae a role that his character is best suited for.
Alternatively, Investigator can be great Int based faces, and Inquisitor can be decent Wis based ones. Not the greatest "tanks" by any means, if that's even a thing, but they can be decent melee boys.

Edit : damn I'm slow. And yeah, 15 pts is not the easiest for a split focus character.


Here's a quick trick:

On 15 point buy, you are likely going to tank Intelligence on a STR+CHA class. That shouldn't stop you from being a good face if you use your feats on Peerless Courtier – this allows you to get full ranks on face skills by investing a feat instead of investing skill ranks.

So, for example, here's a fun build:

Race: Human

15 point buy: S15+2 D12 C14 I7 W10 CH14

Class: Antipaladin – Insinuator archetype

Alignment: Neutral Evil (this is the best alignment for faces! You love your party more than anything, and you are willing to pull any sort of s%+@ to make sure your party is well-rewarded and protected.)

Traits: To taste

Feats:

LV1. Cunning
Human LV1. Power Attack

LV3. Peerless Courtier

Bonus LV4. Intimidating Prowess

LV5. Peerless Courtier

LV7. Peerless Courtier
Bonus LV7. Cornugon Smash

So at level 7, you essentially have this many skill ranks to play around:

Class – +1 (2-2 due to low INT, with a minimum of 1)
Race – +1 (Human)
Feats – +4 (Cunning + Peerless Courtier x3)

For a total of 6 skill ranks per level.

Meanwhile, you maintain all the cool tricks of Insinuator Antipaladins, like swift action self-healing and condition removal, and you can weaponize your Intimidate skill through Cornugon Smash and Aura of Ego.


Here's a quick outline of a fairly tanky face build done with the slayer class.

Human:
Take Heart of the fey (bonus to saves plus low light vision at the cost of skilled)
Adoptive Parentage, Dwarf (Give up bonus feat for dwarf weapon familiarity, we want the dwarven giant sticker as a martial weapon)

Traits:
Pick one that give diplomacy as a class skill (the other 3 of the 4 face skills are already class skills)
Pick another that gives a bonus to whatever you fancy (Saves, initiative, skills, whatever. The build only requires at least the first one)

Stats:
15(13+2) 14 12 12 10 14

Feats:
1: Combat Reflexes
3: Pushing Assault

Talents:
2: Ranger combat style, Two handed, Power Attack

Equipment:
Dwarven Giant Sticker (2d6 P or S Reach weapon)
Breastplate

Skills:
Diplomacy
Bluff
Intimidate
Sense Motive
3 more as fit your fancy

Summary:
You use your reach, decent AC and hard hitting AoOs to control the battlefield. You stop charges with pushing assault and protect your team. One major benefit is that you can use your move action to study an opponent, then standard to ready an action to hit them if they come within reach, then take an AoO if they move from a square you threaten.
Out of combat you should be able to study almost any creature you are going to speak with to get your studied target bonus and you have all the face skills with a solid charisma to back them up.

This is a level 3 build, from here you keep building on the fun.

Edit: Another good option is to keep the human bonus feat and use a Lucern Hammer (1d12 P or B Reach) Then you can take power attack at 1 and pick up cornagon smash at level 2 or 3.


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I think with a low point buy you'd be better off with mechanics that move your social skills to a different attribute; something like the Student of Philosophy or Clever Wordplay traits for Int.

I'd also like to put in a good word for the Inquisitor. Conversion Inquisition solves your social skill problem, and the Preacher archetype honestly does more for actual "tanking" than any of the mechanics the d10 classes have. Nothing better than telling your GM that crit they just rolled didn't count. I'd recommend feating into heavy armor for this purpose.


The problem with going heavy armor is that they are playing Skulls & Shackles. I haven't played this campaign but from what I've heard heavy armor is a pretty good way to ensure that you drown in this campaign. I could be wrong though. If heavy armor isn't going to get you killed it's definitely worth spending a feat on.


baggageboy wrote:
The problem with going heavy armor is that they are playing Skulls & Shackles. I haven't played this campaign but from what I've heard heavy armor is a pretty good way to ensure that you drown in this campaign. I could be wrong though. If heavy armor isn't going to get you killed it's definitely worth spending a feat on.

Thats true, we are the whole time in water mapd, we have to roll swim more than you breathe xD, i will need a really good Str to swim with a heavy armor


Oh, I missed the fact it was Skulls & Shackles!

I'd consider a Dreadnaught Barbarian then. The fact that you can't charge or run doesn't matter on confined spaces like ships and such. Build something similar to the above:

Race: Human

15 point buy: S15+2 D14 C12 I7 W10 CH14

Class: Unchained Barbarian – if the GM allows, Dreadnaught archetype

Traits: Barroom Talespinner to have Diplomacy as a class skill, Extremely Fashionable to have Bluff as a class skill with a +1 to Intimidate thrown in.

Progression:

LV1. Cunning
Human LV1. Power Attack

Rage Power LV2. Guarded Stance

LV3. Peerless Courtier

Rage Power LV4. Superstitious

LV5. Peerless Courtier

Rage Power LV6. Reflexive Dodge

LV7. Peerless Courtier

Rage Power LV8. Improved Damage Resistance

Similar to the Antipaladin above, but focused on DR.


Riveling wrote:
this time i want to be the face and the front line.

Summoner. The Eidolon is the frontliner (and can do pretty well at tankiness), while the Summoner has the charisma focus (although you may want to invest in class-skill-traits). The Swim evolution and Alter Self can provide swim speeds if desired, although neither is wearing any kind of mediudm or heavy armor, anyway. With the Skilled evolution, the Eidolon can also be part of the face package, and at 10th level, the Summoner can get the evolition on themself.

As the Summoner doesn't need much martial prowess, the lowish point buy is no hindrance.


How about a skald? Medium armour, songs stack with bards, charisma based and lots of skills for social stuff...

And you could, say, go urban skald and boost dex and have the rogue use gang up, and boost everyone up by being adjacent. Assuming rogue is dex based...

Some nifty options too, with totem powers like spirit really bringing the hurt in.


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I have a defender type builds that could work since it already has you putting points into diplomacy and better checks make it work better.

Sadomasochist Fighter (Fighter/Samurai)

Spoiler:

Key concepts: A warrior that defends her allies by taunting, blocking and getting in harm’s way
Key Stat: Constitution
Race: Human
Key Race Traits: Focused Study, Heart of the Wilderness
Key Traits: Sun-Blessed,
Suggested Traits: Resilient Martyr, Adopted (werebear)->Reviving Rest, Liquid Healing, Rest for the Wicked
Class: Fighter(X)
or Fighter(1), Samurai(X)
Archetype: Unbreakable or High Guardian(Fighter), Yojimbo(Samurai)
Key Feats: Skill Focus[Diplomacy] (1st), Fey Foundling (1st), Combat Reflexes(2nd), Racial Heritage[orc](3rd), Deathless Initiate(4th), Eldritch Heritage[Serpentine] (5th), Body Guard(6th), Fast Healer(7th), In Harm’s Way(8th), Antagonize(9th), Lunge(10th), Improved Eldritch Heritage[Snakeskin] (11th),
Bonus Feats: Endurance (1st), Diehard (1st), Heroic Recovery (5th), Skill Focus[Intimidate](8th), Heroic Defiance (9th)
Suggested Feats: Razortusk, Ironhide, Fight on, Greater Eldritch Heritage, Drunken Brawler, Desperate Battler, Standstill, Call Out
Key Features: • Is able to keep fighting until HP = -(Con+(lvl/2)).
• Has a limited poisonous bite that deals con damage and has a save dc = 10+((lvl-2)/2)+Con Modifier, at 10th level assuming a 30 con this is a DC 24.
• When healed you gain bonus healing equal to (# dice rolled)x2+(Con Mod)/2
• Any excess healing becomes temporary hp(up to your level each day) that lasts for 1 min.

Samurai is a little less starved for skill points then fighter is, so it may be a better option then just going straight fighter. I have played this build before(straight fighter) and while it isn't a heavy hitter between antagonize and my bite I was generally able to get enemies to not ignore me. Afterall, which is more dangerous? the enemy that just does hitpoint damage or the one doing con damage to you? Sure, you only get so many bites per day, but the enemy doesn't know that.


baggageboy wrote:
The problem with going heavy armor is that they are playing Skulls & Shackles. I haven't played this campaign but from what I've heard heavy armor is a pretty good way to ensure that you drown in this campaign. I could be wrong though. If heavy armor isn't going to get you killed it's definitely worth spending a feat on.

You CAN get away with heavy armor if you're willing to compromise slightly on AC - Breastplate+Armored Kilt has 1 less AC bonus than Full Plate does but 2 less ACP. Combined with Armor Expert and the Masterwork bonus and you're on a perfectly manageable -2 ACP, nothing that'll prevent you from making climb and swim checks so long as you make the proper investment.

You're right that in general a light armored build makes more sense in this case, though.


LordKailas wrote:

I have a defender type builds that could work since it already has you putting points into diplomacy and better checks make it work better.

Sadomasochist Fighter (Fighter/Samurai)** spoiler omitted **...

I find that Endurance builds produce more deaths. I prefer DR/AC builds like mine because you still have passable tanks in case you fall. A Rogue with Debilitating Injury up can take your place if worst comes to worst.


in terms of ACP, if you're a non-dex character and you're concerned about making those swim checks in heavy armor

+1 Masterwork Mithral Hell Knight Plate, combined with the armor expert and armor master traits, results in full plate that has the following stats

Cost: 12,000 AC:+10 Max Dex: +3 ASF:25% ACP: 0

I mean, technically at that point you don't even need proficiency in heavy armor....


Secret Wizard wrote:
LordKailas wrote:

I have a defender type builds that could work since it already has you putting points into diplomacy and better checks make it work better.

Sadomasochist Fighter (Fighter/Samurai)** spoiler omitted **...

I find that Endurance builds produce more deaths. I prefer DR/AC builds like mine because you still have passable tanks in case you fall. A Rogue with Debilitating Injury up can take your place if worst comes to worst.

<shrug> I guess it depends on the group. I never died with that character and it was an incredibly lethal campaign. Part of the problem is that the enemies had a hard time landing blows against me to begin with and when I did get hurt I was super easy to keep healed. For a time we had a pretty reckless fighter type that eventually did get himself killed. The healer sighed a breath of relief when he was gone and she only had to keep me healed. It meant she could go back rarely having to cast a healing spell during combat.


LordKailas wrote:

in terms of ACP, if you're a non-dex character and you're concerned about making those swim checks in heavy armor

+1 Masterwork Mithral Hell Knight Plate, combined with the armor expert and armor master traits, results in full plate that has the following stats

Cost: 12,000 AC:+10 Max Dex: +3 ASF:25% ACP: 0

I mean, technically at that point you don't even need proficiency in heavy armor....

Things like this are great, but the OP was talking about a level 1 character. Surviving long enough to be able to make a 12000gp investment into something like this is pretty hard if you are dependent on such.

You need to be a pretty high level to afford mithral anything that isn't light armor and until then you are suffering badly if you've tanked Dex.


baggageboy wrote:
LordKailas wrote:

in terms of ACP, if you're a non-dex character and you're concerned about making those swim checks in heavy armor

+1 Masterwork Mithral Hell Knight Plate, combined with the armor expert and armor master traits, results in full plate that has the following stats

Cost: 12,000 AC:+10 Max Dex: +3 ASF:25% ACP: 0

I mean, technically at that point you don't even need proficiency in heavy armor....

Things like this are great, but the OP was talking about a level 1 character. Surviving long enough to be able to make a 12000gp investment into something like this is pretty hard if you are dependent on such.

You need to be a pretty high level to afford mithral anything that isn't light armor and until then you are suffering badly if you've tanked Dex.

fair enough, but you probably aren't affording high end heavy armor at 1st level either. With the two traits I mentioned you can wear something like master worked Kikko armor and have an ACP of 0.

The only thing that's really driving up the cost of that armor is the mithral quality. Drop that and the enchantment and its stats are

Cost: 2,150 AC:+9 Max Dex: +1 ASF:25% ACP: -2

hopefully a -2 isn't making you drown.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's entirely possible to be a decent face with a Fighter with minimal investment.

Use the Empathic Diplomat trait to use wisdom instead of charisma for diplomacy. Virtuous Creed with its humility option is another possible way of doing this. Using the Versatile Training advanced weapon training option with Polearms and pick the Versatile Training advanced weapon training option to treat diplomacy and sense motive as class skills, and use your base attack bonus in the place of skill ranks.

Put a 14 in wisdom, buy a headband when you an afford it at higher levels, and you've got a party face fighter with an excellent diplomacy and sense motive. Total cost? 1 trait and 1 feat equivalent.


A champion focused medium would serve pretty well, there's a "champion-only" medium archetype in the martial artist's handbook that lets you add your spirit bonus to AC and guarantees you can always channel the spirit if you can find some peace and quiet.


Dasrak wrote:

It's entirely possible to be a decent face with a Fighter with minimal investment.

Use the Empathic Diplomat trait to use wisdom instead of charisma for diplomacy. Virtuous Creed with its humility option is another possible way of doing this. Using the Versatile Training advanced weapon training option with Polearms and pick the Versatile Training advanced weapon training option to treat diplomacy and sense motive as class skills, and use your base attack bonus in the place of skill ranks.

Put a 14 in wisdom, buy a headband when you an afford it at higher levels, and you've got a party face fighter with an excellent diplomacy and sense motive. Total cost? 1 trait and 1 feat equivalent.

This is cool, and works at a higher level, but neither diplomacy nor sense motive are class skills for a fighter and you don't have very many skill points. So until you can pick up the versatile training you really can't face much. So you go from nothing for several levels to full speed once you can get the training you need. If you're starting at level 1 (which the OP is) this probably isn't a great plan.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

AWT lets you retrain the affected skill ranks for free when you take Versatile Training, so although you will be tight for skills and won't have class skill bonus you can still invest and be competent with them at lower levels. Going human and taking FCB in skill ranks can help alleviate the fighter skill problem during those early levels. I do agree it's not as smooth prior to getting AWT, but it can definitely work.

Another possibility for a better start is to take Cunning Liar and Convincing Liar as your traits to make bluff wisdom-based and a class skill. Play as a human and put FCB into skill ranks, letting you invest in Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, and have one rank left over for something else. Take Virtuous Creed (Humility) as one of your 1st level feats. Presuming you have 14 wisdom, this gives you a +7 bluff, +3 diplomacy, and +3 Sense Motive. While it's not super-optimized, that's definitely serviceable. At 5th level you take a feat for Advanced Weapon Training with Versatile Training in polearms. Presuming you have a +2 headband, you've now got +12 bluff, +11 diplomacy, and +11 sense motive. You'll lean a little more heavily on bluff at lower levels and won't have many other skills, but it would definitely work.


Versatile Training grants all affected skills as Class Skills.

Still, I'd rather go Barb with Skulls + Shackles on 15 point buy.
If this were 20 point buy, I'd recommend Fighter, Samurai or UnMonk.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Versatile Training grants all affected skills as Class Skills.

My point was not that it didn't work, (I mentioned it did) but that for 5 levels it's not really functioning. A character that you don't play smoothly from the starting level is rarely fun. Dasrak has tried to address that but even still 3 in an important skill (the OP wants a face character) is hardly great.


So an issue with Skull and Shackles is that you're going to need to invest in some skills that people normally would eschew (like climb and swim and profession(sailor).) So skill ranks can get awfully tight.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
So an issue with Skull and Shackles is that you're going to need to invest in some skills that people normally would eschew (like climb and swim and profession(sailor).) So skill ranks can get awfully tight.

That's why my build relies on Peerless Courtier!


If skill points are the worry, a similar build on anything other than antipaladin would get more. You do miss on the paladiny goodies, but beyond that, it's a very reusable idea.
Be it Fighter, Bloodrager, Slayer or just Barbarian.
Dandy Ranger, for Cha dependancy and maximal Errol Flynnitude, old school. Or even Cavalier, possibly dex based.
Same idea : use bab for skill ranks, have enough left for actual sailor stuff.

Another approach to being a face that hasn't been mentioned, I think : Orator.
Use Linguistics for talky stuff only - useless in combat, but great out of it. For the true wordsmith, one skill is enough. And you'll get to speak the local language no matter which port you happen to be in.

No shortage of methods, really.
What do you see your Character doing, and how, beyond punching and talking?


Just saying, I mentioned skald because of the skill points.


To be honest, I ran this whole AP start to finish and the skald the only one that didn't die, plus spell kenning saved the group multiple times over.

So theres other reasons I reccomend the skald but I may as well be transparent.


I like a lot the slayer build, but recently my GM told me to use only the core book and advance players guide xD


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Riveling wrote:
I like a lot the slayer build, but recently my GM told me to use only the core book and advance players guide xD

Well, that severely limits your options. Based on the restrictions you've already talked about and of the campaign in general, Barbarian and Ranger are probably the only non-caster classes that could work for you. Otherwise you're looking at something like a battle oracle or maybe a inquisitor; there just isn't a lot to work with if you want to build a front-liner face in Core+APG.


Yup.

Barbarian would have less of a hard time affording Charisma I guess, as Ranger will need some wisdom eventually. Neither have much in the way of relevant class skills though, so I hope you are allowed traits.

But pretty much everything else we talked about is much, much more recent than that.
(Anti)Paladin could do, if you're okay with limiting yourself to one or two social skills at best.
Beyond that, this is looking like a 10 Cha all raw skill character.
I'd go ranger, but I just like the class and you kind of know what you're getting into, in terms of terrains, likely enemies and such.
Your partymates are likely to outshine you numbers wise, but how big of a deal that is is up to you.

Or, be weird about it and go chained summoner ? You do the talking, eidolon does the front-lining ? Really not what you wanted, but you do get both a melee beast and talky stuff...


Riveling wrote:
I like a lot the slayer build, but recently my GM told me to use only the core book and advance players guide xD

Only classes from those two books, or that all material must come from those two books?

If it's the later, I can only repeat my suggestion of Summoner. Or asking your GM why the limitation, warning him that you'll end up with a more powerful, more complicated character that you'll like less if he doesn't reconsider.


Derklord wrote:
Riveling wrote:
I like a lot the slayer build, but recently my GM told me to use only the core book and advance players guide xD

Only classes from those two books, or that all material must come from those two books?

If it's the later, I can only repeat my suggestion of Summoner. Or asking your GM why the limitation, warning him that you'll end up with a more powerful, more complicated character that you'll like less if he doesn't reconsider.

All the material, the summoner is a good and OP option yeah, but i want to use a front line mele character xD


And with Summoner, you are playing a melee character. I have played a Summoner, and in combat, it usually felt like the Eidolon was the main part with the Summoner being similar to a familiar hanging back or something. Remember that an Eidolon is not an animal companion - it's intelligent (albeit with Int 7, unless you buff that), and can speak all the same languages as the Summoner.

Wait, how are you playing a Swashbuckler in a game with only CRB+APG?


Derklord wrote:

And with Summoner, you are playing a melee character. I have played a Summoner, and in combat, it usually felt like the Eidolon was the main part with the Summoner being similar to a familiar hanging back or something. Remember that an Eidolon is not an animal companion - it's intelligent (albeit with Int 7, unless you buff that), and can speak all the same languages as the Summoner.

Wait, how are you playing a Swashbuckler in a game with only CRB+APG?

Cos its a new rule , don't know what happend really xD


Do you think you could get your GM to agree to an archetype from one of the other books? A sanctified slayer inquisitor with the conversion inquisition could do the job nicely.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Riveling wrote:
All the material, the summoner is a good and OP option yeah, but i want to use a front line mele character xD

For low-level play, Summoners can be good front-liners. You have 3/4 BAB and d8 hit dice, which is decent enough in its own right. You only really need a 13 in charisma for your spellcasting and class features, allowing you to pump more points in your physical ability scores to compensate (you will need to focus more on buff and utility spells, since your DC's will be low, but the Summoner spell list is full of great options in that respect so it's not really an issue). If you pick half-elf as your race you can use the ancestral arms alternate racial feature to get weapon proficiency with one weapon of your choice, and half-elf summoner has one of the best favored class bonuses available. You can wear light armor without suffering arcane spell failure chance, and once you can afford it a mithral buckler also doesn't incur arcane spell failure chance. At higher levels, make your eidolon large and use mounted combat with it.


baggageboy wrote:
Do you think you could get your GM to agree to an archetype from one of the other books? A sanctified slayer inquisitor with the conversion inquisition could do the job nicely.

I cant use this archetype xD.


Dasrak wrote:
Riveling wrote:
All the material, the summoner is a good and OP option yeah, but i want to use a front line mele character xD

For low-level play, Summoners can be good front-liners. You have 3/4 BAB and d8 hit dice, which is decent enough in its own right. You only really need a 13 in charisma for your spellcasting and class features, allowing you to pump more points in your physical ability scores to compensate (you will need to focus more on buff and utility spells, since your DC's will be low, but the Summoner spell list is full of great options in that respect so it's not really an issue). If you pick half-elf as your race you can use the ancestral arms alternate racial feature to get weapon proficiency with one weapon of your choice, and half-elf summoner has one of the best favored class bonuses available. You can wear light armor without suffering arcane spell failure chance, and once you can afford it a mithral buckler also doesn't incur arcane spell failure chance. At higher levels, make your eidolon large and use mounted combat with it.

I like the idea, is there any option of multiclassing the vanilla summoner with thoose 2 books?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Riveling wrote:
I like the idea, is there any option of multiclassing the vanilla summoner with thoose 2 books?

Is there any particular type of class feature you're looking for? Multiclassing is very unfavorable for Summoners, since there is no way to recover the lost progression on your eidolon. If you're just looking for weapon proficiency, use feats or racial bonuses to grab it instead.


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"I'm going to be a [chained] Summoner" is perhaps the pettiest response to "you can only use the core book and the APG" I can think of. I approve.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
"I'm going to be a [chained] Summoner" is perhaps the pettiest response to "you can only use the core book and the APG" I can think of. I approve.

Core-only and Core+APG has some of the most OP character builds and combinations in all of Pathfinder. If you're going to restrict your players to that ruleset, you might just get more than you bargain for.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
"I'm going to be a [chained] Summoner" is perhaps the pettiest response to "you can only use the core book and the APG" I can think of. I approve.

I think the proper term is "be careful what you wish for". If you limit the players choices (limited books, low point buy, limited magic items), human natures means more stronger PCs is what you will get as a result. I wasn't kidding when i talked about "end[ing] up with a more powerful, more complicated character" because of the limitation of books!

Fact is that the most powerful class (Wizard) and the vast majority of the most powerful spells are in the CRB. Fact is that the best 6/9 caster (Summoner) is in the APG, and that almost everything an (optimized) Summoner wants is in CRB and APG (basically, the only thing missing is the Extra Evolution feat). Also fact is that other character types (i.e. martials and hybrids) have gained a lot in other books (new classes, unchained versions, new archetypes, or new options like Advanced Weapon Training), while the most powerful builds have gained rather little in comparison (this all basically comes from Paizo learning form their early mistakes).

With strict limitation of books, you basically give your players a choice between having a very powerful character, and having a very weak character that can only do half of what the player wants. Don't be surprised when they pick the former!
This thread is a perfect showcase of that. AWT? Not allowed. Slayer? Not allowed. Investigator? Not allowed. Skald? Not allowed. Nothing much but Oracle and Summoner (the only tier 1 and 2 classes from the list) remains!


Which Eliodon is better, biped o quadruped base form? And can you tell me why?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Riveling wrote:
Which Eliodon is better, biped o quadruped base form? And can you tell me why?

They're just different. Bipeds have better attacks of opportunity due to getting more reach, letting them threaten areas more effectively and pin down enemy movement. Quadrupeds have superior mobility thanks to the pounce special and are excellent for charging, and also serving as a mount. Both are great options with different pros and cons, and roughly equal in my view.

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