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If you can go Inquisitor, be a Sworn of the Eldest!


Secret Wizard wrote:
If you can go Inquisitor, be a Sworn of the Eldest!

Is an Archetype from de Core or APG? Cos if not i cant use it xD


Riveling wrote:
Im thinkin in a mele fighter with a nice BAB who can also be the tank of the party and also be tje face of the group. I was playin with a Vanilla Swashbuclker but it doesnt work very good, we are a bard, rogue an me on the party and we always have problem in combat cos nobody can truly tank. Im playing with a 15 points build, so....

Since you farther down say you want a chaotic character, consider a Braggart Knight (gnome). That submission is from 2011, so I think most of the bits in that will work (it's hard to determine the original source of many feats these days, because d20pfsrd updates to the latest version's book). Use the following for the stat-array:

STR- 13 (bump 4th, 12th)
DEX: 7
CON+ 17 or 16 (bump 8th, or not if 16)
INT: 10
WIS: 10 or 12 (if Con 16)
CHA+ 14 (gnome, 15,15,14,10,10,7 or 14,14,14,12,10,7 15pt-array)

This is a raging mounted concept in plate armor, so it can get away with poop for dexterity.


Riveling wrote:
Which Eliodon is better, biped o quadruped base form? And can you tell me why?

For damage quadruped, because pounce reigns supreme. Not that biped can't make a fun character, but for dealign damage, quadruped is best. AoOfishing is cute, but when you can just pounce something to death, it kinda pales in comparison.

Biped Eidolon: "Look at me, my "zone of death" allowed me to make three AoOs this round, plus my one regular attack! I hurt one guy a lot, and damage two others!"
Qudruped Eidolon: "Well done, mate!"
Biped: "What did you do?"
Qudruped: "Oh, nothing much, I just pounced one guy and killed him in round round, preventing any damage or spell he would have done that combat..."
Biped: *sadface*

Note that you can completely rebuild your Eidolon's evolution every levelup, so you could have an Eidolon with the mount evolution early on, and later change it to a stand-alone combatant (and switching to a reach weapon yourself).


Can you explain me the good of pounce? I didn't use it before, doing all your attacks with +2, is just this right?


How to use pounce: move, and then full attack someone. More attacks is better than fewer attacks.

Normally moving would leave you with only a standard action to make a single attack with, which is unfortunate when you would otherwise be able to make a whole lot of attacks.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Derklord wrote:

Biped Eidolon: "Look at me, my "zone of death" allowed me to make three AoOs this round, plus my one regular attack! I hurt one guy a lot, and damage two others!"

Qudruped Eidolon: "Well done, mate!"
Biped: "What did you do?"
Qudruped: "Oh, nothing much, I just pounced one guy and killed him in round round, preventing any damage or spell he would have done that combat..."
Biped: *sadface*

And on round 2 the biped can now full attack enemies with its generous reach without having to take charge penalties and while still threatening those AOO's. Some situations will favor one or the other, and to that extent GM style could well play a role in overall perception (my own love for mixing in fodder mooks could very well be leading me to over-value AOO's, for instance), but in my view both are really great and which one to pick is a matter of personal preference.


Riveling wrote:
Can you explain me the good of pounce? I didn't use it before, doing all your attacks with +2, is just this right?

You can move and still make a full attack. For most other melees, if an enemy is more than 5 feet out of reach, the melee can only make a single attack. A creature with pounce can charge and still make a full attack.

Let's take my last Summoner's Eidolon: At 8th level, with Haste from the Summoner, the Eidolon has a full attack DPR against an average CR8 monster of 99.4, if the Eidolon needs to charge, without pounce, that damage drops to 26.6 (-73%), but with pounce, it instead rises to 112.6 (+13%). It's like you get two turns instead of one!

A biped eidolon has 5 feet more reach when large or huge (i.e. starting at 8th level), and can have 5 feet more reach on a single natural attack (a quadruped could take that evolution as well, but that would ruin pounce).

Difficult terrains and creatures in the way (friends or foes) can prevent charges... but then the Flight evolution is a thing, and Fly and Overland Flight are on the Summoner's spell list.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Derklord wrote:
A biped eidolon has 5 feet more reach when large or huge (i.e. starting at 8th level)

1st, actually; thanks to the Share Spells ability eidolons are eligible to be targeted with Enlarge Person.


The biped does really well for itself in the early to middle levels if it focuses on buffing up one big attack. But in the late game the eidolon mechanics favor multiple attacks too much, so pounce becomes really helpful.


I think i will take 1 rogue lvl to take all the skills i need for this campaing, cos de summoner suck there xD.

Which feats of the Core and APG should i take?


The summoner actually has quite a few skills if you count the eidolon. Most people build the eidolon as a damage machine, but they can easily be built for utility instead, with your summon monster spell-like ability handling most combats.

At 5th level, you can drop a point in its intelligence to give it an extra skill per hit die. And with the ability increase evolution it can gain a +2 intelligence increase at first level and take it again every sixth level. It’s starting class skills are ok, but you can also custom choose any 4 skills you want to be class skills for it. And there is also the skilled evolution to make you really good at one skill. And you can do that for multiple skills. A concept I never got around to doing was a summoner whose eidolon is basically his sassy secretary.

In addition, your summoner doesn’t really need to have many high ability scores other than a moderate charisma. So, you can put one of your higher scores in intelligence. Altogether, a pure summoner can be built as a very competent skills guy.


Also : you're teamed up with two skillmonkeys, including one of the very best at that game (and a rogue too, which isn't that bad either).
Having a bit less skills on you shouldn't be too bad, as you really shouldn't be lacking.

One level of rogue will allow you to open many skills, but as levels stack up those 1 rank skills won't help a whole lot. Better than nothing, sometimes allowing rolls you couldn't try otherwise, but success will quickly become quite the task.
Depends on your taste, playstyle and goals of course. Losing Summoner levels hurt, but a rogue dip might be helpful early on... maybe.

Otoh, if your Summoner is leaving the Frontline to the eidolon, you can grab some Intelligence. The skill list is the issue, short of relying on traits.
And if you are getting into melee, one rogue level won't be that useful.
Either way : might as well go Bard, if anything.


They already have a bard. Which just makes me wonder why he isn’t doing the face thing?

But with a bard and a rogue, a summoner would be a pretty good pick. Your group is small and your summon monsters can benefit from the bard while setting up flanks for the rogue.


Nyerkh wrote:

Also : you're teamed up with two skillmonkeys, including one of the very best at that game (and a rogue too, which isn't that bad either).

Having a bit less skills on you shouldn't be too bad, as you really shouldn't be lacking.

One level of rogue will allow you to open many skills, but as levels stack up those 1 rank skills won't help a whole lot. Better than nothing, sometimes allowing rolls you couldn't try otherwise, but success will quickly become quite the task.
Depends on your taste, playstyle and goals of course. Losing Summoner levels hurt, but a rogue dip might be helpful early on... maybe.

Otoh, if your Summoner is leaving the Frontline to the eidolon, you can grab some Intelligence. The skill list is the issue, short of relying on traits.
And if you are getting into melee, one rogue level won't be that useful.
Either way : might as well go Bard, if anything.

The problem is that im the face of the group, i need bluff and diplomacy, the eliodon can take intimidate yes, i know, but in this path there are clim,swim,acrobatics,perception checks every 5 minits xD, and the summoner doesnt has any of this skill, that why i'm dipping in one lvl of rogue, so Rogue1/Summoner3 (im at lvl 4 now) i was human but im thinking on taking hal elf for the extra point on evolution pool, i will change the weapon proficency of half elves to use pirate cutlass, and i will spent every feat on focus skill or something like that. Im not sure how to use a summoner on front line with that 8hit dice an only light armor proficency


Melkiador wrote:

They already have a bard. Which just makes me wonder why he isn’t doing the face thing?

But with a bard and a rogue, a summoner would be a pretty good pick. Your group is small and your summon monsters can benefit from the bard while setting up flanks for the rogue.

Our bard is pretty nice for bard music, and being the funny guy of the group, but just this xD.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Riveling wrote:


The problem is that im the face of the group, i need bluff and diplomacy, the eliodon can take intimidate yes, i know, but in this path there are clim,swim,acrobatics,perception checks every 5 minits xD

A better approach to expanding on your skill points is to be human and put your favored class bonus into skill points. With 12 intelligence that gives you 5 ranks per level, enough to max out bluff, diplomacy and perception while still having plenty of points left over.

I would also warn that the climb skill has a very tight shelf life for a Summoner. Your eidolon can gain the ability to fly as early as 5th level and you can either ride it or have it carry you.


I need some help to understand the basics of the Eidolon. I have a biped Eidolon lvl 3, with 3 attacks max. How this works??

I have clawsx2 , so every time i do full attack i can hit 3 times?? Or i do 3 atacks with 2 claws in every attack??

Fighting with natural weapon have any penalties when i do more than 1 attack?

If i took Slam evolution, how it works? I do only 1 slam atack? O one slam attack per limbs? What is better, slam or claws?


Summoner is a lot of class to take in, if you aren’t familiar with it. The eidolon can only have a maximum of 3 attacks at that level, but you would have to choose evolutions to gain that many attacks. For instance, you could have two claw attacks and a bite evolution. But you can only use an appendage once per full attack, so claws and slam couldn’t be used from the same arms in the same round.


Melkiador wrote:
Summoner is a lot of class to take in, if you aren’t familiar with it. The eidolon can only have a maximum of 3 attacks at that level, but you would have to choose evolutions to gain that many attacks. For instance, you could have two claw attacks and a bite evolution. But you can only use an appendage once per full attack, so claws and slam couldn’t be used from the same arms in the same round.

The slam attack use the 2 claws? Or i can hit with 1 claw and do 1 slam with the other?

I never played a natural weapon pj, so how many principal attack i can do without penalties?.

If i take improve damage evolution is for 1 claw or both?


It’s more about the arms than the hands in this case. The claws use both arms, so to get more arms attacks in a round, you’d need to take an evolution for another set of arms. Slam is questionable on if it requires one or both arms. You’d need to ask your DM for a ruling on that. But if slam were ruled to only use one arm, you’d be able to use the other arm for another attack, like a claw.

The eidolon limits you to a level-based number of attacks per round no matter how many attacks you may actually have. But if that limit didn’t exist, then as a full round action, you’d be able to use any number of primary natural attacks at no penalty and any number of secondary attacks at a -5 penalty, and that penalty becomes -2 when you get multi attack.

The improved damage evolution improves all attacks of that type, so all claws in your example. Not all evolutions work that way though. For instance, the reach evolution would only effect one claw. You have to read the text very carefully for things like that.


Riveling wrote:

I need some help to understand the basics of the Eidolon. I have a biped Eidolon lvl 3, with 3 attacks max. How this works??

I have clawsx2 , so every time i do full attack i can hit 3 times?? Or i do 3 atacks with 2 claws in every attack??

The maximum natural attack limitation is solely about selecting evolutions. In actual play, you follow the normal natural attack rules. You also follow the normal rules for attacking, i.e. standard attack action and full-attack action - you need the full-attack action (or pounce) to make more than one attack, and when you do, you get one attack per natural weapon you have, plus an additional attack with one of these natural weapons if affected by Haste or a similar effect.

Riveling wrote:
If i took Slam evolution, how it works? I do only 1 slam atack? O one slam attack per limbs? What is better, slam or claws?

You always get the number of attacks the evolution says. In the case of slam, the description says "a devastating slam attack", and since 'a' is singular, you get one slam attack. Gaining additional limbs never grants additional natural attacks on its own, those are basically used as the frame on which natural weapons from other evolutions are attached.

Improved Damage says "Select one natural attack form", form means claws/bite/etc., and it affects all of those you have. Contrarily, Reach says "One of an eidolon’s attacks", so it really affects only one <claw> even if you have multiple <claws>.

Riveling wrote:
The slam attack use the 2 claws? Or i can hit with 1 claw and do 1 slam with the other?

If you use the "replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack" option, you lose both claws. If you take slam in addition to the claws, well, RAW, you can make all three attacks. Contrary to what Melkiador said, there isn't actually any rule about "only use an appendage once per full attack". Haste and Multiattack obviously allow multiple attacks with the same natural weapon, and there are published monsters with both bite and gore on a head. He's probably thinking about the rule about combining weapons and natural weapons (which does say you only get either per limb), but that one's not about only using natural weapons.


Melkiador wrote:
The biped does really well for itself in the early to middle levels if it focuses on buffing up one big attack.

How do you "[buff] up one big attack"? Improved Damage evolution may sounds nice, but even if we use slam, it's only +2.5 damage, or +3.5 damage with Enlarge Person. If we replace our claws with a Slam and take no other natural attacks, we gain 1.5xStr and 3:1 Power Attack ratio on it. Sadly, the Improved Natural Attack feat doesn't stack with the Improved Damage evolution.

Melkiador wrote:
But in the late game the eidolon mechanics favor multiple attacks too much, so pounce becomes really helpful.

The problem is that Summoner gets a foprth natural attack and Haste at 4th level, which means five natural attacks. With a third potential claw attack from Haste, Rend becomes strong, and even though biped can have 4 claws at that point, pounce means quadruped triggers Rend more reliable. Biped has basically already lost at that point, and it only gets worse. Energy Attacks becomes aviable at 5th level, for isntance.


Haste really just favors the one big attack build. It’s more impressive to have two of something bigger. But the big attack build is more than just damage. You also give it reach and things like push, pull and grab. Using your attack of opportunity from reach to push the enemy back is hilarious and sometimes negates an attack entirely. The poster doesn’t have the right sources, but you can make a pretty devastating eidolon grapple build with the right sources, and that also favores a big attack.

Also the big attack build is a bit of a misnomer. You still usually have other attacks for a full attack. You just don’t focus on them. For instance, claws can also go on the first set of feet, so you can take the slam evolution and have 3 attacks at first level, but you won't be spending any evolutions on buffing those claws. They just wait there for when you want them.

And don't undersell the damage.
Take slam with a 1d8 damage.
Improved damage evolution for 2d6 damage.
Enlarge Person for 3d6 damage and 10' reach.
Reach evolution for 3d6 damage and 15' reach.

And that's easily available at level 2, or level 1 if you use a feat for an extra evolution. You can also add push to it for fun tricks like being in melee and following a successful push back with a 5 foot step in the opposite direction. This will result in that enemy having to use a move action to get back to your eidolon, probably provoking an attack of opportunity from your big attack, with the possibility for more push, and only have a standard action left for attack after moving. (Note: almost always start your full attack off with your lesser attacks, since your big attack may move the target out of range.) (Note2: If you're running a synthesist, I think this style is always superior to a pounce build, because it plays like a reach cleric and lets you be both damage and spell caster.)


Melkiador wrote:

.

And don't undersell the damage.
Take slam with a 1d8 damage.
Improved damage evolution for 2d6 damage.
Enlarge Person for 3d6 damage and 10' reach.
Reach evolution for 3d6 damage and 15' reach.

3d6 soun nice, but as you guys said, if i pick slam i just can do 1 slam attack per turn right?

With claws i do 1d4 per claw
Improved damage make 1d6
Enlarge Person makes 1d8 and 10' reach
Reach evolution for 1d8 and 15'reach . All x 2 (two claws) .

So....if i take slam evolutión , i can do per turn in a full attack round 2d8 (claws) and a slam attack of 3d6 ?? Im lvl 3 now so i have 3 maximun attacks


Using a limb means you cant use the same limb for a different attack.

Slam seems to use 2 limbs. So it's either 2 claws or one slam.

Another bonus slant has going for it is vital strike. Since charging as a large creature isn't always easy (straight paths) moving and vital striking instead is good too. That's much later on though.


You can combine slam with other attacks, those attacks just can't use the arm(s) being used for slam. As I mentioned earlier, instead of dropping the claws with slam, you can also keep them and even choose for them to be on the legs, instead of the arms. In that case, you could full attack with both the slam and claws.

The reach evolution only increases the reach of a single claw. And if you aren't biped, you don't get the extra reach from going to large size. And if you are favoring multiple small attacks over one big attack, you will want to go with the quadraped form so you can take pounce.


Cavall wrote:
Another bonus slant has going for it is vital strike. Since charging as a large creature isn't always easy (straight paths) moving and vital striking instead is good too. That's much later on though.

Earliest an Eidolon can pick up Vital Strike is 9th level. At 10th level, the Eidolon is basically non-stop flying thanks to sharable Overland Flight.

Riveling wrote:

With claws i do 1d4 per claw

Improved damage make 1d6
Enlarge Person makes 1d8 and 10' reach
Reach evolution for 1d8 and 15'reach . All x 2 (two claws).

As I said before, the reach evolution is only for one single natural weapon, e.g. one claw or one slam or whatever.

@Melkiador: Can you give a sample build at a slightly higher level (4th level or higher)? With half-elf racial FC bonus and Extra Evolution feat(s) of your chosing.


Derklord wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Another bonus slant has going for it is vital strike. Since charging as a large creature isn't always easy (straight paths) moving and vital striking instead is good too. That's much later on though.

Earliest an Eidolon can pick up Vital Strike is 9th level. At 10th level, the Eidolon is basically non-stop flying thanks to sharable Overland Flight.

Right. That's why I said much later on.


Derklord wrote:

@Melkiador: Can you give a sample build at a slightly higher level (4th level or higher)? With half-elf racial FC bonus and Extra Evolution feat(s) of your chosing.

I guess you mean for the big attack reach build? It sounds like you want an all out build. I normally wouldn't sink resources into the evolution pool like this. Just isn't my style.

Level 4 Biped
7 Starting Evolution Pool. +1 from feat. +1 from FCB. So a total of 9.

Evolutions:
Free: Legs, Arms, Claws
1 point: Reach(slam), Push(slam), Slam,Improved Damage(slam),Bite
2 point: Ability Increase(strength),Energy Attacks(Acid)

Strength should be 19 or 21 with enlarge person, for an attack bonus of +7.

Normal damage would be 2d6+4 slam, (1d4+4)x2 for claws, 1d6+4 for bite. Damage when enlarged would be 3d6+5 slam, (1d6+5)x2 for claws, 1d8+5 for bite. The slam would have a reach of 15, giving you a high chance of getting multiple attacks of opportunity per combat with your slam. Each of those attacks also does 1d6 acid damage.

While the quadruped build would sometimes have more damage with pounce, the biped build should make up the difference in attacks of opportunity.

Edit: forgot to add feats. With limited sources, weapon focus(slam) and power attack. With wider sources I’d have picked up the grab evolution and the dirty fighting and improved grapple feats.


Melkiador wrote:
Derklord wrote:

@Melkiador: Can you give a sample build at a slightly higher level (4th level or higher)? With half-elf racial FC bonus and Extra Evolution feat(s) of your chosing.

I guess you mean for the big attack reach build? It sounds like you want an all out build. I normally wouldn't sink resources into the evolution pool like this. Just isn't my style.

Level 4 Biped
7 Starting Evolution Pool. +1 from feat. +1 from FCB. So a total of 9.

Evolutions:
Free: Legs, Arms, Claws
1 point: Reach(slam), Push(slam), Slam,Improved Damage(slam),Bite
2 point: Ability Increase(strength),Energy Attacks(Acid)

Strength should be 19 or 21 with enlarge person, for an attack bonus of +7.

Normal damage would be 2d6+4 slam, (1d4+4)x2 for claws, 1d6+4 for bite. Damage when enlarged would be 3d6+5 slam, (1d6+5)x2 for claws, 1d8+5 for bite. The slam would have a reach of 15, giving you a high chance of getting multiple attacks of opportunity per combat with your slam. Each of those attacks also does 1d6 acid damage.

While the quadruped build would sometimes have more damage with pounce, the biped build should make up the difference in attacks of opportunity.

Edit: forgot to add feats. With limited sources, weapon focus(slam) and power attack. With wider sources I’d have picked up the grab evolution and the dirty fighting and improved grapple feats.

The slam does 2d6 when you are big, b7t the normal damge is 1d8. Whit the Improve damage wont be 1d10 instead 1d8 for the slam??


It’s in the faq. The 1d8 goes to 2d6.

Link

It’s a big of a slog to read. But for that category of attack you go up 2 steps on that chart.

But slam even says in its own text that it does 2d6 if large.


As i umderstand. Slam does 1d8. When you enlarge you do 2d6, and with improved damage you du 2d8!

The only explanation to do 2d6 at the start is that your Eidolon is Big , and then you enlarge to Enormus.

That is what i'm understanding xD


I just noticed that the slam specifies a value that conflicts with the chart for huge slams. You’ll need to ask your dm for a ruling about that.


Natural attacks do critics??


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Riveling wrote:
Natural attacks do critics??

Yes, all attacks can potentially crit. If no information about is provided, then the default is that the attack threatens a crit only on a natural 20, and deals double damage if confirmed.

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