Well...


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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First off, I hope that this is a very sucessful launch of a great product. However I will not pre-order anything for this system, I will wait until it comes to my local game store, so I can do a read through of the rules. This had better impress a lot of people, otherwise you are going to have the exact same drop that you had for playtest except it will be for the new rules.


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In the immortal words of The Dude:
"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."


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Well sorry you feel that way. I was on board for the playtest and I am excited for this. I found that Paizo's best design was when they got further away from 3.5 staples and did their own thing. I am excited to see a system that is truly their own. Hope it surprises you.


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I agree wholeheartedly with the OP.

What I saw in the play test I certainly did not like. Normally I would order the premium versions without even thinking about it, but unless Paizo clarifies what or if anything changed compared to the play test, I am holding off.

And not just generic comments.

Liberty's Edge

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They've already announced/mentioned a lot of fundamental changes between the playtest and the final version. What are the problems everyone feels need to be addressed? They may have been already.

Silver Crusade

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
They've already announced/mentioned a lot of fundamental changes between the playtest and the final version. What are the problems everyone feels need to be addressed? They may have been already.

For folks who missed them, here are the two main communications we've had from the design team since the playtest closed:

Jason on Twitch, December 21st. Notes and discussion thread HERE.

Jason on Know Direction, January 16th. Notes and discussion thread HERE.


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Oh wow, I didn't know they got rid of untrained scaling up entirely. I'm one of the people who was supportive of the system before she actually played with it, so I'm glad to see that go away. I'm especially glad to see that the numbers have been widened enough that the Best at a thing are very consistently competent at the thing.

I'm not gonna buy anything until I've read it either, though that's more of a general principle than a mark against PF2 specifically. I had a lot of complaints with the playtest and my group gave up on it entirely after a few weeks of trying to make it feel fun and exciting but it seems like there have been radical enough changes that my playtest experience means basically nothing in terms of what the final book will look like.

Silver Crusade

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I'm excited for PF2, and probably will preorder, but it seems totally reasonable to me for folks to wait-and-see.

It's a big change, the Playtest was a shock and not really well executed as a ruleset (as the many update documents attest), and every player and group cares about different things.

So it's not a wild idea to think, let's check it out rather than buying sight-unseen.


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We're kind of past the point of having to declare that you're not going to buy 2nd edition. Buy it or don't. I don't have to make a thread every week saying I won't buy it because the drop of universal attacks of opportunities takes the game in a direction that I find uninteresting.

We're glad. Thanks for sharing.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

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Let's try to be nice to one another.

It's certainly reasonable for someone to take a "wait and see" approach.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think a lot of the hostility against people with opinions like OP comes from people who stayed up to date with the Playtest and know many people's gripes are likely unfounded. Just yesterday I had a guy say he wouldn't play because of Signature Skills. Signature Skills!

That being said, Erik is right. Let's be our best! I'll hopefully be preordering stuff, if I can get a summer job when the Semester ends.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'll be buying myself PDFs instead of pre-ordering physical copies, but I mostly play online and prefer to use my laptop for physical games. The fact that it's cheaper is a nice bonus. (That said, I expect core line PDF prices to go up at least a little after a decade.)


Ok, I'll bite. What happened to signature skills?

Liberty's Edge

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Garfaulk Sharpstone wrote:
Ok, I'll bite. What happened to signature skills?

They touched the Golden Plate at the beginning of the Dungeon and perished a painful and deserved death.


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Ding dong the witch is dead~

I was already aware signature skills were gone but the absolute worst idea in the entire playtest going the way of the dodo is still worthy of celebration.


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Yeah, the skill system we wound up with is light years better. Signature skills as an auto trained thing makes way more sense.


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I mean, it's never really rational to preorder anything unless you are concerned they will run out of it or are concerned you would forget about it and miss out. People preorder things for fundamentally non-rational reasons like "I am extremely excited for a thing, and must acquire it as soon as is physically possible."

I'm going to get the book, but I will probably not get it right away either.

Silver Crusade

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, it's never really rational to preorder anything unless you are concerned they will run out of it. People preorder things for fundamentally non-rational reasons like "I am extremely excited for a thing, and must acquire it as soon as is physically possible."

There are plenty of "rational" reasons to preorder! And the example you list is perfectly rational. Unless, I suppose, you mean "rational" in some sense other than, an effective means to satisfy one's desires.

But if that's what you mean ("it's 'irrational' to want what you want"), then I'd suggest that that kind of second-concept-of-liberty judginess about other's desires, goals, and choices is probably not a great fit for a forum about a hobby game.

There's no reason to be judgy about others' choices here. They're their choices, not yours. Live and let live.

(Other "rational" reasons to preorder, e.g.: I don't live near a store where I can easily browse and grab one, and I know I want it soon; I'm going to GenCon and want to ensure I can pick one up and play there; I appreciate Pathfinder and Paizo's work and want to help boost their preorder numbers because I believe that will be useful for the game and/or the company.)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Joe M. wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, it's never really rational to preorder anything unless you are concerned they will run out of it. People preorder things for fundamentally non-rational reasons like "I am extremely excited for a thing, and must acquire it as soon as is physically possible."

There are plenty of "rational" reasons to preorder! And the example you list is perfectly rational. Unless, I suppose, you mean "rational" in some sense other than, an effective means to satisfy one's desires.

But if that's what you mean ("it's 'irrational' to want what you want"), then I'd suggest that that kind of second-concept-of-liberty judginess about other's desires, goals, and choices is probably not a great fit for a forum about a hobby game.

There's no reason to be judgy about others' choices here. They're their choices, not yours. Live and let live.

(Other "rational" reasons to preorder, e.g.: I don't live near a store where I can easily browse and grab one, and I know I want it soon; I'm going to GenCon and want to ensure I can pick one up and play there; I appreciate Pathfinder and Paizo's work and want to help boost their preorder numbers because I believe that will be useful for the game and/or the company.)

I preorderd for the rational, irrational reason of im truly excited for a new edition of Pathfinder and want to show my support for a company that I believe is worth that support. Its unfortunate that pessimism is becoming the expected norm these days. Its no different that rushing out to see your favorite movie franchise and waiting in line to see the midnight release. I mean if you have the disposable income to be buying hobby books or whatever then who cares why.


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There's gonna be that gameplay stream with Jason starting April. With any luck we'll be able to figure out the rules from it before August so we can pre-order in time!

I would advise anyone still undecided to tune in and see if they like the game.


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There are a lot of things I liked about what I saw in the Pathfinder Second Edition Playtest. At the same time I just can't bring myself to preorder. There were several serious core problems with the system that remained all through the playtest and, unfortunately, we only have the dev team's assurance that they are being fixed. I would be really disappointed if I preordered the game and those changes hadn't been made. Unfortunately I'll just have to wait and see what's released, then buy it if the changes I want were implemented.

If I'm spending 120$ on two books I need to know they're books I can use for months and years of gaming. I can't write that expense off risking them gathering dust on a shelf.

Silver Crusade

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ChibiNyan wrote:

There's gonna be that gameplay stream with Jason starting April. With any luck we'll be able to figure out the rules from it before August so we can pre-order in time!

I would advise anyone still undecided to tune in and see if they like the game.

I know I'm not the only one invested in putting that game, as well as whatever other previews we get, under the microscope. We'll probably know a fair amount before release.

Speaking of, Jason is GMing the first public PF2 game ever at GaryCon right now, per his Twitter, so we might learn a few things before the weekend's up.

Silver Crusade

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Joe M. wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
They've already announced/mentioned a lot of fundamental changes between the playtest and the final version. What are the problems everyone feels need to be addressed? They may have been already.

For folks who missed them, here are the two main communications we've had from the design team since the playtest closed:

Jason on Twitch, December 21st. Notes and discussion thread HERE.

Jason on Know Direction, January 16th. Notes and discussion thread HERE.

On the general question of "topics folks liked to talk about a lot in the Playtest", Mark just dropped something pretty interesting in another thread:

Mark Seifter wrote:
The Core Rulebook defines these kinds of archetype (called "class archetypes") [i.e., PF1-style feature-swapping archetypes, as opposed to the feat-based archetypes in the Playtest], even though it doesn't include them. They're just too core a concept and too fertile a ground for future rules expansion not to define them well so everyone is ready for them and can find the relevant rules in the CRB. This also has a side effect of making it easier for 3pps to have a framework to write them too.


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I will buy the core rules in PDF. Paizo has done such a good job they're worth $10 to see how the new game turned out.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I will preorder for the completely rational reason of wanting immediate gratification.


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I like entertainment. I buy movies, tv seasons, novels, wings and beers with friends.

I bought 5e PH. Never played the game. It's just reading. I've certainly spent more on Subway for work lunches.

Dropping the money for pre release for a company I highly enjoy, respect, and appreciate is nothing. I simply want the reading of it. Hopefully I'll play this some day as well!

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I’m still wait and see, because I haven’t seen the rules.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I’m still wait and see, because I haven’t seen the rules.

Here, I'll show you. It's a heroic fantasy heartbreaker roleplaying game, your character is defined by six attributes, Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma. Now, there's an ongoing debate whether Charisma determines your looks...

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

I am a subscriber, so I will automatically get the book (and I hope the free PDF too) when the time comes. Unless I have such bad vibes about it (none at the moment) that I cancel my subscription.

It is the opposite of Pre-order and fits my MO much better.

Sadly, I will likely need to preorder if I want a Deluxe version, or go to my FLGS so that they order it, which adds an intermediary and thus a higher risk of not getting the product in the end.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Someone said that PF2 is something altogether new and PF1 got better when they moved away from 3.5.

I felt like PF2 was... unfortunately similar to D&D 5th. Am I wrong? Honest question. Feel free to say yes or no, and if you feel like giving some reasons I would not mind.


Alenvire wrote:

Someone said that PF2 is something altogether new and PF1 got better when they moved away from 3.5.

I felt like PF2 was... unfortunately similar to D&D 5th. Am I wrong? Honest question. Feel free to say yes or no, and if you feel like giving some reasons I would not mind.

It felt more similar to 4e than 5e to me. But yeah like 5ed it did simplify the game a lot and make rolls much more intuitive since both DCs and bonusis scaled with level+mod basically.

Liberty's Edge

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Alenvire wrote:

Someone said that PF2 is something altogether new and PF1 got better when they moved away from 3.5.

I felt like PF2 was... unfortunately similar to D&D 5th. Am I wrong? Honest question. Feel free to say yes or no, and if you feel like giving some reasons I would not mind.

The only similarities between PF2 and 5E are that both are simpler than PF1, and both reduce the power disparity between martials and casters. Almost every other thing is different, especially once examined in detail.

Just the fact that everyone adds level to everything they are trained in makes a huge difference from 5E, since it makes level matter an order of magnitude more, and I vastly prefer most aspects of PF2's monster design, just to pick two examples of huge differences between the two games.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Alenvire wrote:

Someone said that PF2 is something altogether new and PF1 got better when they moved away from 3.5.

I felt like PF2 was... unfortunately similar to D&D 5th. Am I wrong? Honest question. Feel free to say yes or no, and if you feel like giving some reasons I would not mind.

The only similarities between PF2 and 5E are that both are simpler than PF1, and both reduce the power disparity between martials and casters. Almost every other thing is different, especially once examined in detail.

Just the fact that everyone adds level to everything they are trained in makes a huge difference from 5E, since it makes level matter an order of magnitude more, and I vastly prefer most aspects of PF2's monster design, just to pick two examples of huge differences between the two games.

Thats good to know. I had not directly compared the two and know fairly little of 5th edition. Thats one thing I LOVED about PF2 is that it felt like it will be a lot more intuitive with monster design to have differing party sizes. I liked the scaling effect. One of the things I purposefully tried to do was use the rules to run a 3 person group and it worked... moderately well. I suspect with the full rules it would have run perfectly fine.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

All d20 games are going to feel similar to some extent. They're all based on the parent concept of rolling a d20 and adding or subtracting something. The 3-18 is "normal" stat range is deeply ingrained. The basic fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue (and now often druid, paladin, ranger) usually show up.

But to me, my brief time with 5e seemed more like 2e and PF2 seems more like a blending of PF Unchained and Starfinder as well as some new things (although some new things didn't survive playtest).


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Pathfinder 2 is not the same as D&D 5e. It is not based on bounded acracy which is a flattening of numbers. You will be hit more and be hit more. The idea behind it was it kept monsters relevant for longer periods of time. So with the flattened numbers large groups of enemies can be threat for higher level PCs. Also Advantage and Disadvantage are large part of 5e. I think one of the Pathfinder 2 authors summed it up by saying in D&D a character may have a hard time fighting their way out of a tavern. They may be able to do it, but would be risk. In Pathfinder 2 they could do it and it would not be near as threatening.

In Pathfinder 2 there are going to be bigger gaps in AC and hit bonuses. So lower level creatures are not near as threatening in large numbers. So from what I have seen they are not the same.

So Pathfinder 2 will still be the closest thing to 3.5 engine amongst 5e and 13th Age.

Silver Crusade

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I've tried 5e with friends who play a few times, and could never get into it. Didn't feel like I had the ability to tinker with a character build (felt like any build had, like, two choices to make, which didn't have much significance, and that's it) or the interesting tactical combat that I enjoy in these games.

Not to knock the game. I know folks who really like it and that's fine.

But PF2, from the playtest and everything we've heard since, looks much more like the game I want.

A significantly cleaned up and more elegant game engine than PF1, a solid base of interesting character options with the system well designed to allow good expansion in the future, fun monsters and tactical combat.

(Plus a fun campaign setting and consistently high quality adventure writing. aka, I *much* prefer Paizo's world building and adventure writing.)


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The fact that you get to make at least two choices every level is the biggest seperation from 5th Ed's "if your not a caster you might make a very dull choice of what stats to improve every 2 levels"


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Overall I found the Playtest rules a big improvement on PF1 and it got rid of a lot of my issues with PF1, I'll pre-order as soon as PDF and GenCon collections are confirmed. Anything I don't enjoy I can house rule any way (planning PF2 for my homebrew game).

I do think Paizo might benefit from getting some preview documentation out though so people like OP can view how things changed. Although we're still four months out so plenty of time for PF Friday etc. to show the game off.

Silver Crusade

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Turelus wrote:

Overall I found the Playtest rules a big improvement on PF1 and it got rid of a lot of my issues with PF1, I'll pre-order as soon as PDF and GenCon collections are confirmed. Anything I don't enjoy I can house rule any way (planning PF2 for my homebrew game).

I do think Paizo might benefit from getting some preview documentation out though so people like OP can view how things changed. Although we're still four months out so plenty of time for PF Friday etc. to show the game off.

Yeah, we'll be getting lots of previews between now and August.

You might appreciate the news that Erik confirmed on Reddit yesterday that the PDFs would release the same day as the physical books.

No word yet on subscription benefits or GenCon pickup but I'm sure we'll get those details soon enough.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am one the weird people that like both Payhfinder/Pathfinder 2 and D&D 5th. To me they are different enough they offer different experiences. D&D is easy to bring in new players. Not a whole lot secessions with character creation and advancement. Multi classing can add some interesting combos but is optional. Has bounded accuracy as I mentioned above and Advantage and Disadvantage which I like. Pathfinder 2 adds allot of character options and class feats that can make combat more tactical. It also has wider gaps in AC and to hit bonuses that can lead to more heroic feel. I also like how it incorporated critical hits being 10 more than the AC. It gives the to hit roll some added spice.


There are hundreds of games being made. Some are good, some are bad and try as I might, I'll only over be able to play a minute fraction of them in my lifetime.

As such, there's really no point dwelling on PF2


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

After listening to Gary Con like what I am hearing more and more.


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Hey everyone.

I have already pre-ordered from my local game store and can't wait.

I enjoy the PFP 1.6 and am running my own home brew game. Everyone is having fun and any issues we have with the PFP look to be addressed in PF2 from what I have read and watched in Jason's game with GAMA.

I can't wait for August 1st. Read the 1000 pages or rules and monsters. And play.

Great stuff to the developers.

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