Diabolic Style...a bit confused. :(


Rules Questions


Any help with this feat chain would be much appreciate. :)

Diabolic Style

It says that you can make an attack of opportunity while using this style. I'm taking that as you're using up an attack of opportunity when you attack vs only being able to use this style when someone provokes an AO.

Correct? If not then this feat chain is very lackluster.

If yes, what happens when someone actually provokes an AO?

Also, it should be able to be used multiple times per round regardless if I'm correct on the above not not. Yes?

Diabolic Humiliation.

Don't think there is anything confusing here.

Diabolic Judgement.

Okay I'm almost positive that this only applies when the target provokes an AO. Yes/no?

Thanks. :)


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it seem like it give you a special way to use an aoo that some1 provokes. not giving you an extra aoo or something. normaly an aoo can be an attack you can make, without this feat you can't b~%%#-slap someone into a staggared condition if he provoke an aoo.
you should have enough aoo as is since combet refexs is a requirment.

as for lacklust, some builds are set on getting aoo, and having a staggared enemy is allways good (especialy if your a monk who has medusas wrath feat).


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As far as a I can tell it just let you make a "humiliating swat" as an AoO instead of just a normal unarmed strike as an Attack of Opportunity.

The effect of the humiliating swat being dealing non-lethal damage and potentially causing staggered.

By itself it's not great, but if you have additional ways of generating AoO you could potentially CC an single target into only having a move or standard, which is pretty devastating in a boss fight.


Thanks.

Seems pretty rare it would come up unless you're fighting dumb enemies or ones that are running away.

Seems like enlarge would make this feat chain much more useful as it would be hard to see many AO's per turn otherwise as this has to be used with unarmed strike not a reach weapon.


Sorta ninja'd by Claxon.

Okay it's as I feared. Thanks. :)


I'm not sure it's as clear as it seems at first. It doesn't give a specific trigger like "Bodyguard" or "Step Up and Strike", and it doesn't explicitly replace the normal AoO like "Stand Still".

I'm not sure you can use this at all honestly, you can't spend AoO's without a trigger or a feat that lets you use them in some new situation and this feat provides neither.


There are a number of threads on these forums about forcing opponents to provoke attacks of opportunity. Check those and see if you can make it work.


ErichAD wrote:

I'm not sure it's as clear as it seems at first. It doesn't give a specific trigger like "Bodyguard" or "Step Up and Strike", and it doesn't explicitly replace the normal AoO like "Stand Still".

I'm not sure you can use this at all honestly, you can't spend AoO's without a trigger or a feat that lets you use them in some new situation and this feat provides neither.

Unless you are deliberately trying to interpret in a way that makes it not work, it's pretty obvious it "triggers" when you could make an AoO with your unarmed strike as normal. The wording "you can make an attack of opportunity with an unarmed strike to deliver a humiliating swat to the target" just indicates you can't use it with with any other weapon.

The only ambiguity I see is whether this replaces the normal damage of the AoO, or whether it's an added effect. I assume the humiliating swat overwrites normal AoO damage and "you inflict 1 point of nonlethal damage" regardless of other modifiers but it doesn't explicitly say so. It could benefit from the word "instead" inserted somewhere.

You enter the style as a swift action as normal, and while in the style gain the ability, when you make an AoO with an unarmed strike, to either deal damage as normal or deliver a humiliating swat.

It's somewhat limited (particularly as the Charisma-based DC makes Scaled Fist a near-necessity for monks), but synergizes well with Medusa's Wrath. If you stagger them when they provoke during their turn, they're still staggered when your turn rolls around. Otherwise you can use flurry of blows and replace one of your attacks a trip attempt with Greater Trip and/or Vicious Stomp to make them provoke an AoO.


With some broken wing and paired opportunists this could be decent.


Seems like this style would pair nicely with Greater Trip and a Fortuitous Amulet of Mighty Fists.


Can that go on an amulet? It says can only go on melee weapons. Amulet can only do ones that can be applied to unarmed attacks.


Cavall wrote:
Can that go on an amulet? It says can only go on melee weapons. Amulet can only do ones that can be applied to unarmed attacks.

*mind blown*

I've been allowing this for years because I never made that differentiation. I've always considered fists, knees, elbows, and kicks melee attacks.

Although, I've seen other people who talk about AoMF enchanted with Fortuitous and pairing it with Vicious Stomp/Greater Trip for lots of AoO goodness. So... who's correct?


Well. It needs to be wielded to be used, according to fortuitous, and you can't do that with an amulet... so..

No?

It is why I am asking. I think I've mentioned it before but I always forget the conclusion.


stuff to make the enemy frightened or panicked & 10+ reach would not only get you that aoo when they bolt to run but also make it easier to catch up when they fail the slap's dc as they only get one action to run with.this can get into a lockdown combo.
(the feat for using two styles at once and the style that make enemies shaken when hit should work fine if you hit them 2+ times in your turn.)


Cavall wrote:
Can that go on an amulet? It says can only go on melee weapons. Amulet can only do ones that can be applied to unarmed attacks.
Quote:

Well. It needs to be wielded to be used, according to fortuitous, and you can't do that with an amulet... so..

No?

It is why I am asking. I think I've mentioned it before but I always forget the conclusion.

AoMF wrote:
Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks.
Quote:
This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons. A fortuitous weapon grants the wielder more attacks of opportunity. Once per round, when the wielder of a fortuitous weapon hits with an attack of opportunity, he can make a second attack of opportunity with this weapon against that foe at a –5 penalty.

Unarmed strikes are a melee weapon, so its valid for AoMF. It doesn't require you to be wielding the weapon to use the ability (similar to how crane style doesn't require you to be in it, in order for it to reduce the penalties of fighting defensively), only that you hit with it on an attack of opportunity, which you can make with unarmed strikes. So it would be viable on an AoMF.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Seems like this style would pair nicely with Greater Trip and a Fortuitous Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Actually, this Feat Tree makes me want to take another look at Master of Many Styles! Think about using Diabolic Snake Style. When you get Snake Fang, you get an Attack of Opportunity whenever someone attacks and misses, and you get to apply Vital Strike to every AoO!

And if you are taking Greater Trip, take Vicious Stomp, too!


don't think you can get vital strike on aoo. aoo is an 'attack' vital is an 'attack action' which is a sub type of standard action. difrent things. as you can't take standard action out of turn u cant vital stirke normaly out of turn.
look up the faq for more clerification.


The diabolic Judgement feat permits the use of vital strike feats with your first AoO in a round. This leads me more toward thinking that the 1 subdual is meant to be applied ontop of the normal AoO as vital strike wouldn't do much for an ability with no dice.


or that this style is built on utilizing aoo. so you need to pick if you gona slap them or do double weapon damage.
like snake style and the thing about not being able to use all it's abiities at once but deciding if to et higher defense or another aoo.


Seems poorly worded. :(

So if you can AO a Barbarian you can b@#!~slap them out of rage. Heheh. :)


The advance benefit of Way of the Patient Strikes, the Vital Punishment Vigilante talent, and Diabolic Judgment (does not require evil alignment).

With these 3 things you can get Vital Strike 4 times a round. And get Wis instead if Dex added to the # of AoO per round.


willuwontu wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Can that go on an amulet? It says can only go on melee weapons. Amulet can only do ones that can be applied to unarmed attacks.
Quote:

Well. It needs to be wielded to be used, according to fortuitous, and you can't do that with an amulet... so..

No?

It is why I am asking. I think I've mentioned it before but I always forget the conclusion.

AoMF wrote:
Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks.
Quote:
This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons. A fortuitous weapon grants the wielder more attacks of opportunity. Once per round, when the wielder of a fortuitous weapon hits with an attack of opportunity, he can make a second attack of opportunity with this weapon against that foe at a –5 penalty.

Unarmed strikes are a melee weapon, so its valid for AoMF. It doesn't require you to be wielding the weapon to use the ability (similar to how crane style doesn't require you to be in it, in order for it to reduce the penalties of fighting defensively), only that you hit with it on an attack of opportunity, which you can make with unarmed strikes. So it would be viable on an AoMF.

How can you say it doesn't require them to wield it when you yourself bolded twice where it says that exact word? Which is my point? I fully understand unarmed strikes are weapons, and that the necklace can enhance anything so long as it can on unarmed strikes. Let me rebold for you.

I'm pointing out you have to wield it and you cant do that with a necklace or unarmed strike. I don't see how you can quote it twice and gloss over it (in fact ignore it, and go against it) and call that RAW. It's clearly not RAW to say it doesnt require a wielder when its used 2 times in a row.


Don't get me wrong I also agree it should be ok by intention, but this isn't the intention forum and I can't ignore wording to fit that world view for this forum. I just want to point it out as some GM may be less lenient


Cavall wrote:

How can you say it doesn't require them to wield it when you yourself bolded twice where it says that exact word? Which is my point? I fully understand unarmed strikes are weapons, and that the necklace can enhance anything so long as it can on unarmed strikes. Let me rebold for you.

I'm pointing out you have to wield it and you cant do that with a necklace or unarmed strike. I don't see how you can quote it twice and gloss over it (in fact ignore it, and go against it) and call that RAW. It's clearly not RAW to say it doesnt require a wielder when its used 2 times in a row.

TBF, I had only bolded one of those instances. Still, fair point.

You are definitely considered to be wielding unarmed strikes, in order to be able to attack with a weapon, it needs to be wielded.

If you had a vicious AoMF, you would take the 1d6 damage when attacking with an unarmed strike, as you're considered to be wielding the unarmed strike (if you aren't considered wielding them, then its free extra damage for every monk). Likewise, a LE monk with a holy (or other version of contrasting alignment and alignment enchantments) AoMF would have the negative level the enchantment bestows its wielder since they are wielding the unarmed strike.


Regardless of whether or not it fits on an AoMF, I am sure the enchantment could fit on handwraps as they are definetly wielded and can be enchanted. And it would be cheaper too (Although less limbs benefit).


Temperans wrote:

The advance benefit of Way of the Patient Strikes, the Vital Punishment Vigilante talent, and Diabolic Judgment (does not require evil alignment).

With these 3 things you can get Vital Strike 4 times a round. And get Wis instead if Dex added to the # of AoO per round.

by my count you're only getting vital stike 3 times since the extra vital strikes only occur on an AoO which you can't normally apply vital strike to but, would this actually do anything?

The way the vital strike feats are worded they alter how your attack roll is made rather then adding or multiplying your damage. I don't think applying it multiple times accomplishes anything, any more then having an ability that changes your damage to fire and trying to apply it multiple times.

vital strike wrote:
Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

Even if this does work, how does the math work?

A warhammer does 1d8 dmg

vital strike with it would be 2d8
vital strikex3 would be what?
A: 4d8 [WD+WD+WD+WD]
B: 6d8 [(WDx2)+(WDx2)+(WDx2)]
C: 8d8 [(((WDx2)x2)x2)]
D: 14d8 [(WDx2)+((WDx2)x2)+(((WDx2)x2)x2)]
Where WD = Weapon Damage

Though to be fair, doing the above combo you have imp. vital strike, so it would actually be imp. vital strikex3. I just did vital strikex3 to keep the math easier to follow.


I'm not saying 4 times on the same AoO.

But 4 times in a round: 1 standard action, The first AoO, and 2 more AoO.

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