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One of the things that keeps me practically married to 3.5e/PF is the comparative freedom you have with your ability scores. Sure, clerics want to have good Wisdom, and barbarians want a healthy Con score, but just about every class can get something out of any of their ability scores.
The gold star of this is the rogue who can have builds centered around just about any of the six ability scores. Strength and Constitution rogues are your brutish thugs, bouncers, and other urban muscle who don't give one whit about propriety and civil tactics. Intelligence rogues are your skill monkeys and masterminds (at least until the investigator class came along). Wisdom rogues are sleuths, gamblers, and other shady characters who rely on their wits. And Charisma rogues are your charming rakes and suave charlatans. Now, sure, you could make a brutish thug who's a fighter or barbarian, or a charming rake who's a bard, but those would be very different characters from a rogue built around those stats. And, notably, unlike certain other versions of D&D and its spin-offs, can make use of them.
So, without further ado, have you made any characters built around unusual ability scores? Unusually high scores a class doesn't normally focus on, or unusually low scores that are normally that class's focus both count. For MAD classes, it's generally got to be a score that either isn't part of its normal MAD scores, or is built around only one of its MAD stats to the veritable exclusion of others (a monk with high Charisma as an example of the former, or a paladin with with high Wisdom but low - as in no more than say 13 - Charisma and Strength as an example of the former).
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I have a few characters who stray a little off the beaten path: A Str Rogue, a Shifter with a decent Int, more characters with 14+ Cha than the average person.
However, my more odd characters are generally from archtypes which many would say suck. And unfortunately due to the priority shifts that those archtypes provide, most of the unusual stat choices are actually rather justified. Like a Warpriest rocking a 14 Cha because they're a Champion of the Faith and thus get Smite, or a Thunderstriker Fighter with 16 Cha since they're taking the Sanguine Angel prestige class and get a lot out of Signature Skill: Intimidate skill unlocks.
I've also got some oddities like a 14 Str, 13 Wis Witch, but as the White Haired Witch, most of that is to get feat prereqs on the grappling line.
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I have a few characters who stray a little off the beaten path: A Str Rogue, a Shifter with a decent Int, more characters with 14+ Cha than the average person.
However, my more odd characters are generally from archtypes which many would say suck. And unfortunately due to the priority shifts that those archtypes provide, most of the unusual stat choices are actually rather justified. Like a Warpriest rocking a 14 Cha because they're a Champion of the Faith and thus get Smite, or a Thunderstriker Fighter with 16 Cha since they're taking the Sanguine Angel prestige class and get a lot out of Signature Skill: Intimidate skill unlocks.
I've also got some oddities like a 14 Str, 13 Wis Witch, but as the White Haired Witch, most of that is to get feat prereqs on the grappling line.
Well certainly an honourable mention to your warpriest and fighter, at the very least. And I'd actually say the witch straight-up counts, at least potentially. Even if that's not what you actually did with the character, the concept of building a witch around grappling is certainly novel enough to count.
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It wasn't really strong (just 13 Str) but in one campaign an arcane trickster was surprised to find herself the strongest character in the party. The player never did get used to the muscle wizard jokes.
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It wasn't really strong (just 13 Str) but in one campaign an arcane trickster was surprised to find herself the strongest character in the party. The player never did get used to the muscle wizard jokes.
This reminds of me of a campaign I'm currently playing in where we keep getting caught off guard by the fact that our barbarian (me) has the highest Intelligence in the group, at a whopping 11. You'd be surprised how often it comes up, considering it's a fairly old school kick-in-the-door style campaign. I'm also the only character with a positive Int modifier, again, in a Curse of Strahd campaign, though at least in that one my Int is a 14, and I'm a warlock which is more thematic for a group's mastermind.
A dwarven rogue with his highest stats in Con and Wis is quite playable.
A dwarven rogue with his highest stats in Con and Wis is quite playable.
That sounds like a character who'd have a hard time hitting enemies and be weak in the Dexterity skills we'd expect Rogues to be good at. Are there some build options that make this work?
A dwarven rogue with his highest stats in Con and Wis is quite playable.That sounds like a character who'd have a hard time hitting enemies and be weak in the Dexterity skills we'd expect Rogues to be good at. Are there some build options that make this work?
You'd be surprised how much most target ACs drop once you've smashed their light source first thing. You also motor right through those fortitude and will-saves that most rogues haven't a prayer against, and are probably two or three HP/level higher than them.
You'd be surprised how much most target ACs drop once you've smashed their light source first thing.
I'd be surprised if many enemies were vulnerable to that. It wouldn't work if:
You're fighting something with darkvision.You're fighting outside, or in a room with windows, during the day.
You're fighting in a place with multiple light sources, or a hard-to-destroy light source like a large bonfire, or a caster using a Light spell.
Your allies don't have darkvision, so they brought their own light sources.
Oh, dang; I'm still a tough dwarf who makes his saves and gets two automatic Perception checks per round in most dungeons. I guess I'll not Piranha Strike this fight. Or, because I'm the scout, I'll head back to the party and suggest that maybe this other idea I have could work better instead of heedlessly rushing into some headless-clown corner-case where I completely and deliberately suck for no reason so that all the NPCs standing around can whip out their phones to take video of me failing and laugh, because gosh knows they always cake-walk like a boss no matter what.
I'm kind of a sucker for charisma characters and try to fit the stat in no matter what I'm playing. Steadfast Personality/Irrepressible have been strong allies in this quest, and have let me pump charisma on any number of classes despite it traditionally being a crappy stat for them.
I just like my big dumb martials to be good at flirting, dammit.
Oh, dang; I'm still a tough dwarf who makes his saves and gets two automatic Perception checks per round in most dungeons. I guess I'll not Piranha Strike this fight. Or, because I'm the scout, I'll head back to the party and suggest that maybe this other idea I have could work better instead of heedlessly rushing into some headless-clown corner-case where I completely and deliberately suck for no reason so that all the NPCs standing around can whip out their phones to take video of me failing and laugh, because gosh knows they always cake-walk like a boss no matter what.
Did you just imply that enemies in a cave having darkvision is a "corner case"?
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Rogue critic's flowchart:
[Query: Is somebody satisfied with their rogue?]-->[Yes.]-->[Bring this heretic before the tribunal!]
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Rogue critic's flowchart:
[Query: Is somebody satisfied with their rogue?]-->[Yes.]-->[Bring this heretic before the tribunal!]
They’re just applying sense to some patent nonsense. It’s cool that your GM is giving you a customized kiddie mode to make your character seem good, I hope you appreciate him.
Its why Rogues in my campaign have full BAB and can multiply their sneak attack damage on Vital Strikes.
I did have a legitimate muscle Wizard in a campaign once, 18 Str and 18 Int with Hand of the Apprentice throwing Greatswords. It was a good time, never got to see him past level 3 unfortunately since the player had to move. I've a few other weird characters, an Investigator with 14s in nearly all his stats, a Barbarian with more Dex than Str except when raging, a twf Nature Fang Druid with a Quarterstaff, a negative Int Scout Ninja who focused on throwing weapons with Slip-slinger style (before we learned that only the first hit applies sneak attack), and a bad touch caster with 8 Con all spring easily to mind.
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I just like my big dumb martials to be good at flirting, dammit.
'
There's no reason to be sad, or in this one case MAD.
In your quest for a date, consider taking the right trait.
If you want to be wise beyond your years, then there's no need for any tears:
Cunning Liar
Empathic Diplomat
For the scholar with numbers in their head, here's how to let the right words be said:
Student of Philosophy
Clever Wordplay
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A dwarven rogue with his highest stats in Con and Wis is quite playable.That sounds like a character who'd have a hard time hitting enemies and be weak in the Dexterity skills we'd expect Rogues to be good at. Are there some build options that make this work?
Look, we're not talking min-maxing here. Even outside of combat, there's still plenty that most any character - but especially a rogue - can do to help a typical party. The character needn't be in the top 10% of characters or anything, just so long as they function. Let's say characters (not classes) who would fit low Tier 4 (capable of doing one thing well, even if suffering in other areas or being cripplingly overspecialized), if we bring in the idea of class tiers. Though even Tier 5 is great if you've got a fun story to tell.
They’re just applying sense to some patent nonsense. It’s cool that your GM is giving you a customized kiddie mode to make your character seem good, I hope you appreciate him.Rogue critic's flowchart:
[Query: Is somebody satisfied with their rogue?]-->[Yes.]-->[Bring this heretic before the tribunal!]
Please don't be a gatekeeping tryhard. Roleplaying games are about having fun with some friends. If you want to talk about what builds are or aren't most effective in some absolute sense, there are plenty of other threads for that. This is a thread for wacky and fun builds that specifically diverge from conventional wisdom and truisms for building characters. Naturally, the vast majority of these characters will be, in some way, markedly suboptimal. But, if a character was able to accomplish something fun in an actual game - or even just if the player had fun playing them, or is looking forward to an opportunity to play them - without being built around common stats, that's enough for them to be welcome in this thread, regardless of how that character might fare in a PFS game or Tomb of Horrors. (This comment was singled out, but it's kind of aimed at a few replies in this thread.)
TL;DR: Please don't insult other players, GMs, or playstyles in this thread.
P.S. I just noticed, amusingly enough, that one of the first hits in that link is a "dwarf rogue who doesn't suck" with 18 Con and a respectable Wis score... Heheh
@Wonderstell: Kudos for the poem!
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They’re just applying sense to some patent nonsense. It’s cool that your GM is giving you a customized kiddie mode to make your character seem good, I hope you appreciate him.Rogue critic's flowchart:
[Query: Is somebody satisfied with their rogue?]-->[Yes.]-->[Bring this heretic before the tribunal!]
Sure. A dwarf rogue with will and fort saves +5 to +10 over another race is being coddled if he manages to survive.
Human rogues -- now those guys are in kiddie-mode if the GM permits them to live.
I just like my big dumb martials to be good at flirting, dammit.'
There's no reason to be sad, or in this one case MAD.
In your quest for a date, consider taking the right trait.If you want to be wise beyond your years, then there's no need for any tears:
Cunning Liar
Empathic DiplomatFor the scholar with numbers in their head, here's how to let the right words be said:
Student of Philosophy
Clever Wordplay
Don't worry, I'm fully aware of those traits and use them extensively as well; sometimes Clever Wordplay is what I want for a character, but often times what your character sucks at can be as important to their overall design as what they're good at. Obviously int-to-charisma skills isn't really what I want if the character I'm trying to build is very stupid.
I have an unchained str/cha thug rogue who used a greatsword and had a low dex. I built him in the kingmaker video game, where his build has a number of advantages over paper, but he was an absolute combat monster and good out of combat as a rogue.
I've played a half-orc summoner (fighter 1/summoner X) for a bit; the eidolon made for a great flanking/teamwork buddy, and between the two of them skills were well accounted for. Used greatsword and chakram to brutal effect. Spellcasting wasn't phenomenal, but that wasn't really the point. I almost never used the summon monster ability. If I played the character again, I'd look for an archetype to swap that ability out, but most of them have too much baggage or don't fit the character's story.
Hmm. I wonder if swapping it for sneak attack would break anything. Maybe if it was a delayed progression or split between the summoner and eidolon? May have to run some tests....
I made a Rogue/Fighter/Barbarian. High strength and decent dexterity, which seemed appropriate for a lean but strong Shoanti warrior.
The particular feat combination was to convince Canny Tumble, vital strike, power attack, and sap master to get as much damage from one got as possible.
Fun concept!