Quick Draw and Full Attack


Rules Questions


The Quick Draw feat states that you can:

"Additionally, when making an attack using a thrown weapon as an attack or full attack action, you can draw a weapon as part of the action of making a thrown attack with it." CRB p. 160-161

So how would you be able to take advantage of a full attack in this way? Would you need to have a thrown weapon in your hand already and that allows you to Quick Draw another thrown weapon and throw both?


Seems like it, yeah.


Also remember that a full attack does not need to be taken with the same weapon, nor do they all have to be melee or ranged attacks.

It's perfectly fine to stab somebody once or twice with your sword, then QuickDraw a dagger to throw it, even using a different hand (or dropping your sword if you need a free hand). Or shoot somebody with your laser pistol then QuickDraw a grenade to throw at him (or any target you want). Etc.


As part of my full attack action, i draw dagger one and throw it, as part of my full attack action i draw dagger 2 and throw it and if a high level operative as part of my full attack action i draw dagger 3 and throw it...


Wait, I think I read that wrong.

It’s saying you can draw a weapon as part of the action of making an attack with it? So you don’t even need to start with a weapon out?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Not for thrown weapons.


I see no reason why you couldn't start with an empty hand and quick draw a thrown weapon to throw it as part of the attack.


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Right? This part: you can draw a weapon as part of the action of making a thrown attack with it.

It seems an awful lot like it's telling me that as part of making the attack with the thrown weapon, I get to draw the thrown weapon.

Initially I thought you could just draw a weapon a part of your attack action, which isn't bad by itself.


It doesn't look like you could trick attack with it though does it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

It looks like it also wouldn't be compatible with Clever Attack or improved get em.

Unfortunate.


So can we draw multiple weapons and full attack? The wording in the rule book says "a weapon". That is why I asked if you have to already have one throwing weapon in your hand to full attack with two throwing weapons.

I wanted to use this feat to allow my character to full attack with two grenades. Which can be done, but I found out that if you full attack with grenades you have to apply the -4 full attack penalty to the reflex save DC for your target making it easier for them to successfully avoid most of the damage. CRB p. 183


BigNorseWolf wrote:
As part of my full attack action, i draw dagger one and throw it, as part of my full attack action i draw dagger 2 and throw it and if a high level operative as part of my full attack action i draw dagger 3 and throw it...

Has this been errata'd?

Otherwise, QuickDraw is a Swift Action and you normally only get one Swift Action per round.


DM_Blake wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
As part of my full attack action, i draw dagger one and throw it, as part of my full attack action i draw dagger 2 and throw it and if a high level operative as part of my full attack action i draw dagger 3 and throw it...

Has this been errata'd?

Otherwise, QuickDraw is a Swift Action and you normally only get one Swift Action per round.

Quickdraw is not a swift action when used to draw a thrown weapon to throw it. It is part of the attack action

"Additionally, when making an attack using a thrown weapon as an attack or full attack action, you can draw a weapon as part of the action of making a thrown attack with it." CRB p. 160-161

So my full attack action is

Attack One
Attack two

With quickdraw and a bunch of starknives

Attack 1 [draw weapon Attack one]
Attack 2 [draw a weapon Attack two]

OH! If you meant he lack of throwing daggers, Sorry. My operative has daggers with the throwing enchantment on them.


I don't see where it says you can draw multiple throwing weapons. The CRB says "a weapon" not weapons.


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Scottybobotti wrote:
I don't see where it says you can draw multiple throwing weapons. The CRB says "a weapon" not weapons.

You may draw a weapon as part of making an attack with it (that weapon)

So if you are making 2 attacks, part of each attack can be to draw a weapon. You have 2 attacks so you get 2 draws.

So you can't attack once and draw 4 knives, but you can (attack and draw in any order) and (attack in draw in any order)

So if i get a free soda with a pizza pie, and i order two pies, i get two sodas. (also should not post while hungry...)


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Now I see the nuance in the way it was written. Thanks.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
It doesn't look like you could trick attack with it though does it.

I think there's a way, but it's pretty bad:

The operative property says you use your dex to hit "when you make a melee attack" so you'd still be using strength to throw.

Trick attack says "you can then make an attack with a melee weapon with the operative special property or with any* small arm."

I think you could make sub-optimal, strength-based trick attacks, if you put a throwing fusion on an operative weapon.

*it's not actually 'any' small arm, but that's a topic for another thread.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

That is not why you can't trick attack with a quickdrawn thrown weapon. The reason is that quickdraw only allows you to draw a throwing weapon as part of the attack as part of the specific attack and full attack actions. Trick attack is neither of those.


Hmmm you may have to draw first. Although thats not much of a downside.


HammerJack wrote:
That is not why you can't trick attack with a quickdrawn thrown weapon. The reason is that quickdraw only allows you to draw a throwing weapon as part of the attack as part of the specific attack and full attack actions. Trick attack is neither of those.

Ah! Good call.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
As part of my full attack action, i draw dagger one and throw it, as part of my full attack action i draw dagger 2 and throw it and if a high level operative as part of my full attack action i draw dagger 3 and throw it...

Has this been errata'd?

Otherwise, QuickDraw is a Swift Action and you normally only get one Swift Action per round.

Quickdraw is not a swift action when used to draw a thrown weapon to throw it. It is part of the attack action

"Additionally, when making an attack using a thrown weapon as an attack or full attack action, you can draw a weapon as part of the action of making a thrown attack with it." CRB p. 160-161

So my full attack action is

Attack One
Attack two

With quickdraw and a bunch of starknives

Attack 1 [draw weapon Attack one]
Attack 2 [draw a weapon Attack two]

Maybe. Personally, I think that's what it should mean and I almost made the same post you did. But then I deleted that post because the sentence right before the one you quoted says that Quick Draw is a Swift action.

This makes me interpret the entire rule as: Quick Draw is a Swift action that you may use as part of an attack action when throwing a weapon.

(The alternative would be that you would need to use a Swift Action to quickdraw a throwing weapon and then could be disarmed before you make your separate attack action to throw it).

If they intend it to stop being a Swift action when used with throwing weapons, then it should say that. It doesn't. So it seems the rule about using Quick Draw as part of the attack action is in addition to the rule that it's a Swift action, which is substantiated by the first word of that sentence: "Additionally".

Like this:

"Alternatively, when making an attack using a thrown weapon as an attack or full attack action, you can draw a weapon as part of the action of making a thrown attack with it instead of using a Swift action."


On a side note, I seem to remember this same argument with Pathfinder a few years ago, covering lots of users and posts, until a dev made a formal clarification that it does allow multiple throwing attacks.


DM Blake wrote:
But then I deleted that post because the sentence right before the one you quoted says that Quick Draw is a Swift action.

General: Drawing a weapon is a move action

Slightly specific: drawing a weapon can be done as part of a move action if your BAB is +1 or higher. (you know, 99% of the time)

Rather specific: if you have quickdraw you can draw a weapon as a swift action instead of the other methods (mind you, you don't have to, a ysoki for example may want to move and draw a weapon, shoot, and then quickdraw a healing serum out of their cheekpouch)

really really really specific: If you have quickdraw you can draw a thrown weapon to throw it as part of an atack action or part of the attack in a full attack action then drawing the weapon is part of the attack.

Fits the raw and the rai.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


Slightly specific: drawing a weapon can be done as part of a move action if your BAB is +1 or higher. (you know, 99% of the time)

Not any move action, though.

CRB p.247 wrote:
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can combine drawing or sheathing a weapon or weapon-like object with moving up to your speed as a single move action.

Offer not valid on crawl, reload, or guarded step. Void where prohibited.

Sovereign Court

So is a Trick Attack "an attack", allowing you to quickdraw and throw a weapon during a trick attack?

Or is Quick Draw talking about "the standard attack action (tm)" like Cleave did in Pathfinder?


Ascalaphus wrote:

So is a Trick Attack "an attack", allowing you to quickdraw and throw a weapon during a trick attack?

Or is Quick Draw talking about "the standard attack action (tm)" like Cleave did in Pathfinder?

Rather sure it's the latter. Trick attacking is it's own full round action that just happens to have an attack in the middle. Quickdraw seems very specific in specifying the actions it works with.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Yes, quickdraw definitely specifies the two actions it works with for drawing a throwing weapon without a swift action, so no overcharge, no trick attack, no clever attack, no shot on the run, etc.

I'm not fond of this rule, but I don't see any ambiguity in it.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
DM Blake wrote:
But then I deleted that post because the sentence right before the one you quoted says that Quick Draw is a Swift action.

General: Drawing a weapon is a move action

Slightly specific: drawing a weapon can be done as part of a move action if your BAB is +1 or higher. (you know, 99% of the time)

Rather specific: if you have quickdraw you can draw a weapon as a swift action instead of the other methods (mind you, you don't have to, a ysoki for example may want to move and draw a weapon, shoot, and then quickdraw a healing serum out of their cheekpouch)

really really really specific: If you have quickdraw you can draw a thrown weapon to throw it as part of an atack action or part of the attack in a full attack action then drawing the weapon is part of the attack.

Fits the raw and the rai.

That's not really how language works though. Specifically, that's not how the word "Additionally" works.

The word "Additionally" means "In addition to the thing I previously said". It does not mean "Instead of the thing I previously said.

I might say "This glass is full of water. Additionally, you may drink its contents." If you drink it, you would expect water. If it's milk, you would (at the very least) wonder why I said "Additionally".

When Paizo used "Additionally", they're literally saying "it's a swift action AND you can use it as part of an attack action in this special case."

I don't think they meant it that way. Neither do you. But they said it that way.


DM_Blake wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
DM Blake wrote:
But then I deleted that post because the sentence right before the one you quoted says that Quick Draw is a Swift action.

General: Drawing a weapon is a move action

Slightly specific: drawing a weapon can be done as part of a move action if your BAB is +1 or higher. (you know, 99% of the time)

Rather specific: if you have quickdraw you can draw a weapon as a swift action instead of the other methods (mind you, you don't have to, a ysoki for example may want to move and draw a weapon, shoot, and then quickdraw a healing serum out of their cheekpouch)

really really really specific: If you have quickdraw you can draw a thrown weapon to throw it as part of an atack action or part of the attack in a full attack action then drawing the weapon is part of the attack.

Fits the raw and the rai.

That's not really how language works though. Specifically, that's not how the word "Additionally" works.

The word "Additionally" means "In addition to the thing I previously said". It does not mean "Instead of the thing I previously said.

I might say "This glass is full of water. Additionally, you may drink its contents." If you drink it, you would expect water. If it's milk, you would (at the very least) wonder why I said "Additionally".

When Paizo used "Additionally", they're literally saying "it's a swift action AND you can use it as part of an attack action in this special case."

I don't think they meant it that way. Neither do you. But they said it that way.

I think, in this instance, "additionally" should be understood to mean "here is another ability this feat provides."


Quote:

That's not really how language works though. Specifically, that's not how the word "Additionally" works.

The word "Additionally" means "In addition to the thing I previously said". It does not mean "Instead of the thing I previously said.

You may go left or right. Additionally you may go down.

That doesn't mean you go down diagonally. It means you have another option.

Quote:
When Paizo used "Additionally", they're literally saying "it's a swift action AND you can use it as part of an attack action in this special case."

Which would be a contradiction because you can't use a swift action in a full attack. You CAN have something done as part of another action that's a part of the full attack action.

You can't get hung up on one reading or one way to use one word and insist nothing else matters.


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DM_Blake wrote:


That's not really how language works though. Specifically, that's not how the word "Additionally" works.

The word "Additionally" means "In addition to the thing I previously said". It does not mean "Instead of the thing I previously said.

I might say "This glass is full of water. Additionally, you may drink its contents." If you drink it, you would expect water. If it's milk, you would (at the very least) wonder why I said "Additionally".

When Paizo used "Additionally", they're literally saying "it's a swift action AND you can use it as part of an attack action in this special case."

I don't think they meant it that way. Neither do you. But they said it that way.

And if it said "Alternatively" there would be someone that argues that you only get one of the two abilities when you pick up the feat, or it loses the ability to grant you swift action draws if you use it this other way, or some other weird interpretation focusing on that single word.

I definitely read it as it's an additional ability the feat confers. It seems apparent that it is intended to let thrown weapon characters get 2-4 attacks with weapons they are not currently holding.

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