Fighter Vs. Spellcaster

[Baval]

And that magic item is?

I know how gate works. Like I said above, youd never be able to actually use a candle to gate, and even if you could you still wouldnt have as much power as the caster has for free.

[Brain in a Jar]

Baval wrote:

i was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but now I see youre seriously talking about a candle of invocations.

Ok, so you pull out the candle (move), light it (standard) and then it lets you cast gate (standard)

ok so you have to wait till next turn to cast the gate. So the wizard uses mage hand to snuff it out.

So you relight it.

And the wizard snuffs it.

etc. etc.

It's more like Move Action to pull it out and Standard Action to use the item.

Also you don't seem to understand how Mage Hand works.

[Baval]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Baval wrote:

i was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but now I see youre seriously talking about a candle of invocations.

Ok, so you pull out the candle (move), light it (standard) and then it lets you cast gate (standard)

ok so you have to wait till next turn to cast the gate. So the wizard uses mage hand to snuff it out.

So you relight it.

And the wizard snuffs it.

etc. etc.

It's more like Move Action to pull it out and Standard Action to use the item.

Also you don't seem to understand how Mage Hand works.

No, it isnt. Candle of invocation says "In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. "

This means the candle has to be burning, which then lets you cast gate. It does not mean you can cause it to instantly light and cast gate for you. You have to use a standard action to light the candle, then you gain the ability to cast gate, which then consumes the candle.

Youre right, mage hand couldnt technically snuff a candle as written. Unseen servant could though, and wouldnt even require an action from the caster after the initial casting

Your continued condescending attitude is amusing considering how useless your tactic is. Even if you do pull it off, again, you have at best used 8400 gold to summon an uncontrolled Marilith (the candle has a CL of 17, but doesnt cast the spell for you it allows you to cast the spell, and your CL is 0), while the caster can either do the exact same only controlled and for free, or animate 4 undead versions of the same or stronger demons. In fact, technically you cannot summon anything due to the line "In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level."

Or hey, how about I time stop, come over and snuff your candle myself, relight it so its my candle now, and use it to gate in my own creature. Which is under my control because my CL is 20

[Bandw2]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Isn't it very DM player interaction to bargain with a Balor? I thought it gate worked quite a bit different from summon monster. I could see that being an issue.

not when you magic jar the Balor.

Wouldn't that still imply at some point you and the DM need some interaction when you solo and capture a Balor?

it happens mid match... probably in timestop, so you can also safely store your body.

[Milo v3]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

I know for a fact that a magic item would let my martial use Time Stop.

No such item exists in the RPG-line.

[Vidmaster7]

Bandw2 wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Isn't it very DM player interaction to bargain with a Balor? I thought it gate worked quite a bit different from summon monster. I could see that being an issue.

not when you magic jar the Balor.

Wouldn't that still imply at some point you and the DM need some interaction when you solo and capture a Balor?

it happens mid match... probably in timestop, so you can also safely store your body.

lol I think your messing with me now. I honestly don't know this one. Can you technically summon anything in time-stop? Wouldn't it come out time-stopped if you could?

[Brain in a Jar]

Milo v3 wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

I know for a fact that a magic item would let my martial use Time Stop.

No such item exists in the RPG-line.

Ring of Spell Storing (major).

[Vidmaster7]

Also Baval and Brain you guys need to take it down a notch.

[Brain in a Jar]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Also Baval and Brain you guys need to take it down a notch.

How so?

[Baval]

Ok, so now youre paying 200,000 gold for the ring, which again still doesnt give you a caster level to make the actual gate spell work the way you want it to.

But fair enough, you did actually have a way to cast time stop.

And your trick works twice (assuming you buy two rings) for a maximum of 5 demons summoned (assuming a lenient DM lets the candle cast the spell for you, and you roll max on both time stops) AND youve spent nearly half your wealth for level 20 on this....and the wizard can still out summon you.

[Brain in a Jar]

Baval wrote:

Your continued condescending attitude is amusing considering how useless your tactic is. Even if you do pull it off, again, you have at best used 8400 gold to summon an uncontrolled Marilith (the candle has a CL of 17, but doesnt cast the spell for you it allows you to cast the spell, and your CL is 0), while the caster can either do the exact same only controlled and for free, or animate 4 undead versions of the same or stronger demons. In fact, technically you cannot summon anything due to the line "In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level."

Or hey, how about I time stop, come over and snuff your candle myself, relight it so its my candle now, and use it to gate in my own creature. Which is under my control because my CL is 20

1. Candle is one of the most highly abusive items in the game. I can't help if you don't see what it's capable of.

2. The Candle casts Gate. It has CL 17th so yes anything with 17 HD is under the control of anyone who uses a Candle.

That's how Gate works...that's also how magic items work.

3. Caster's can't cast Gate for free either. (At least for calling creatures)

4. Time Stop doesn't work that way. You can't effect anyone...

5. Even if your Wizard is Caster Level 30th and uses a Candle the Gate would work at CL 17th....that's how items work...

[Brain in a Jar]

Baval wrote:

Ok, so now youre paying 200,000 gold for the ring, which again still doesnt give you a caster level to make the actual gate spell work the way you want it to.

I'm not spending anything...I'm just talking about what is easily possible for a martial to have and use.

The Ring has nothing to do with Gate...but i guess it could hold one if needed...

Baval wrote:

AND youve spent nearly half your wealth for level 20 on this....and the wizard can still out summon you.

Half??? Wealth at 20th is 880,000 Gold.

Plus a martial can afford it with Master Craftsman. Profession (Chandler) is so good. :)

[Baval]

The candle casts gate you say. Wheres the source on that? Because the exact text of the item is "the owner of the candle can cast gate" as opposed to say a wand, which says "the wielder can cast a spell from the wand"

On the other hand Time Stop DOES work that way, the only limitation Time Stop says is "While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell."

Edit: it does say something about effecting objects, specifically "You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature's possession."

Seeing as snuffing and relighting a candle is not moving or harming your candle, there should be no issue. Even if it does count, all the other counter measures still apply.

Summoning creatures is specifically mentioned, as well as fire burning.

Im going to assume youre going to ignore the part where the candle says "lets the caster cast gate" as opposed to "lets the caster cast gate as an X level caster" or "activating the item casts the gate spell" like other magic items do, so I will reiterate. The candle does not cast the spell. The candle allows you to cast the spell. You are casting the spell. It doesnt specify what level you cast it as, like other items do, nor does it say the item casts the spell, like say a Ring of Friend Shield.

A caster doesnt need to cast gate for free. A caster can cast Greater Planar Binding for free, into a room rigged with enough explosive runes to take out asmodeus also for free, and then bring the corpse shrunk down with shrink item into the arena to be reanimated, which admittedly would then cost some gold (400, or 800 if he felt like making it a juju zombie so it could keep its abilities) In the case of a juju zombie, the corpse can be pre-cursed with enough debuffs to make it virutally impossible for the creature to resist a command undead spell, and killing you is not against the nature of an undead demon so there would be no CHA check to obey that command (and even if there was, it could be pre-cursed to auto fail that too)

[Baval]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Baval wrote:

Ok, so now youre paying 200,000 gold for the ring, which again still doesnt give you a caster level to make the actual gate spell work the way you want it to.

I'm not spending anything...I'm just talking about what is easily possible for a martial to have and use.

The Ring has nothing to do with Gate...but i guess it could hold one if needed...

Baval wrote:

AND youve spent nearly half your wealth for level 20 on this....and the wizard can still out summon you.

Half??? Wealth at 20th is 880,000 Gold.

Plus a martial can afford it with Master Craftsman. Profession (Chandler) is so good. :)

Yes. Half. You cant light and use the candle in the same turn, and the ring of spell storing greater is 200,000 gold, two of which is 400,000 gold, plus the 5 candles of invocation totaling 42,000 gold or 24,000 gold means that using 5 candles to summon 5 demons without the wizard trivially stopping you would cost almost half your wealth.

[Brain in a Jar]

I'm done. I never mentioned buying two rings...you said that...then argued about it...and you clearly don't understand how rules work...

I would have a few choice words...but alas I will remain civil.

I literally see no use in speaking to you for a moment longer.

Good Day Baval.

[Baval]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

I'm done.

I would have a few choice wors...but alas I will remain civil.

I literally see no use in speaking to you for a moment longer.

Good Day Baval.

Good day, it was fun providing evidence to back up my side while you decided "that's not how it works" and "i have a secret item I'm not gonna tell you" was sufficient for yours.

edit: you edited your post so ill edit mine. You seem to be under the impression that if you say something works some way, thats the rule. You have to actually have a rule to back you up, and since Ive provided the text that supports my stance and you haven't, I don't think I'm the one who doesn't understand how rules work.

You're right, you didn't say you purchased two rings. If you only bought one, you could only light and use 2 candles, and that really wouldn't help you (not that 5 would either...) and if you didn't purchase any rings, you cannot light any candles (unless you rule lighting the candle is a move action, but then the wizard simply requires 2 unseen servants to keep the candle from staying lit.)

[Milo v3]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Ring of Spell Storing (major).

How are you getting time stop in the ring when you're not allowed outside help?

[Baval]

Milo v3 wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Ring of Spell Storing (major).

How are you getting time stop in the ring when you're not allowed outside help?

We are allowed to buy anything beforehand on the PRD, and spellcasting services are listed, so he can do it.

[Brain in a Jar]

Milo v3 wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Ring of Spell Storing (major).

How are you getting time stop in the ring when you're not allowed outside help?

With a Simulacrum of an Asurendra to fill the Ring.

Pffft Spell casting Services are for plebeians.

[Baval]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Ring of Spell Storing (major).

How are you getting time stop in the ring when you're not allowed outside help?

With a Simulacrum of an Asurendra to fill the Ring.

Pffft Spell casting Services are for plebeians.

Whos making the Simulacrum if youre not paying for casting services?

[Brain in a Jar]

If you weren't so busy yelling about necromancers and wands...you'd already know i answered that...Candles!

[Milo v3]

Baval wrote:

We are allowed to buy anything beforehand on the PRD, and spellcasting services are listed, so he can do it.

Since spellcasting services says you cannot reliably use it for 9th level spells, so it doesn't really sound appropriate for this sort of competition.

Quote:

With a Simulacrum of an Asurendra to fill the Ring.

If calling isn't allowed I don't think simulacrum's are....

[Brain in a Jar]

Milo v3 wrote:

Baval wrote:

We are allowed to buy anything beforehand on the PRD, and spellcasting services are listed, so he can do it.

Since spellcasting services says you cannot reliably use it for 9th level spells, so it doesn't really sound appropriate for this sort of competition.

Quote:

With a Simulacrum of an Asurendra to fill the Ring.

If calling isn't allowed I don't think simulacrum's are....

They are prohibited from the arena.

Everything before that is legal.

In this hypothetical Master Craftsman Candlemaker of the Multiverse build I'm talking about.

[Baval]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

If you weren't so busy yelling about necromancers and wands...you'd already know i answered that...Candles!

Not sure on the ruling for gating in the illusion of an outsider. Also wouldnt the simulacrum then be bound to whoever originally made it, not you?

Also depends on how the DM rules on the candle itself.

...also its cheaper to have the time stop cast than to buy a candle of invocation, or even to craft one

[Milo v3]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

They are prohibited from the arena.

Everything before that is legal.

Based on that you may as well call in outsiders to cover you in billions of buffs before the match, but it seems unlikely that such a thing would be allowed by the spirit of this thread.

[Baval]

Milo v3 wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

They are prohibited from the arena.

Everything before that is legal.

Based on that you may as well call in outsiders to cover you in billions of buffs before the match, but it seems unlikely that such a thing would be allowed by the spirit of this thread.

They could, but only hour/level buffs are allowed by the rules beforehand, and it would become very expensive to gate in outsiders just to cast a few buffs.

[andreww]

Bandw2 wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Isn't it very DM player interaction to bargain with a Balor? I thought it gate worked quite a bit different from summon monster. I could see that being an issue.

not when you magic jar the Balor.

Wouldn't that still imply at some point you and the DM need some interaction when you solo and capture a Balor?

it happens mid match... probably in timestop, so you can also safely store your body.

You cannot use Magic Jar inside a time stop.

[Vidmaster7]

andreww wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Isn't it very DM player interaction to bargain with a Balor? I thought it gate worked quite a bit different from summon monster. I could see that being an issue.

not when you magic jar the Balor.

Wouldn't that still imply at some point you and the DM need some interaction when you solo and capture a Balor?

it happens mid match... probably in timestop, so you can also safely store your body.

You cannot use Magic Jar inside a time stop.

Thank you! He had me doubting myself I think he might have just been messing with me however.

[andreww]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

andreww wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Isn't it very DM player interaction to bargain with a Balor? I thought it gate worked quite a bit different from summon monster. I could see that being an issue.

not when you magic jar the Balor.

Wouldn't that still imply at some point you and the DM need some interaction when you solo and capture a Balor?

it happens mid match... probably in timestop, so you can also safely store your body.

You cannot use Magic Jar inside a time stop.

Thank you! He had me doubting myself I think he might have just been messing with me however.

I suppose technically you could cast it, you just couldn't possess anyone with it during the time stop as all other creatures are immune.

I don't believe Gate is an option during time stop either as it also targets a creature. Time stop refers to summoning allies, summons don't target, calling spells do.

[Mighty Glacier]

My Self wrote:

Wait, has anybody suggested a Half-Elf Barbarian 1 yet?

Good idea. I built this:

Barbarian 1:

Initel Swordthas
Half-elf Barbarian 1
CN Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +?

----- Defense -----
AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 13 (1d12+1)
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +3; +2 vs enchantment
Immune sleep

----- Offense -----
Speed 30 ft.
Melee greatsword +3 (2d6+3)

----- Tactics -----
Before Combat Initel has no buffs to use. He prays to RNG gods he wins the initiative.
During Combat If Initel won the initiative, he starts raging, walks to his opponent and swings his greataxe. If he lost the initiative, he hopes he can survive whatever spell his opponent casts, even without his rage.
Morale So long as he stands, Initel has a chance to win. He fights to the death.
Rage While raging, Initel's stats are: AC 16; hp 16; Fort +5, Will +5; Melee greatsword +5 (2d6+6); Str 19, Con 17, CMB +6

----- Statistics -----
Str 15, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 16
Feats Improved Initiative
Skills (4/level)
Languages Common, Elven
SQ dual minded*, fast movement
Gear scale mail, greatsword, 5 gp worth of random crap

Let's pit him against my arcanist (that I built earlier):

Arcanist 1:

Colin Spreyton
Human Arcanist 1
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +?

----- Defense -----
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 7 (1d6+1)
Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +1

----- Offense -----
Speed 30 ft.
Melee scythe -4 (2d4/x4)
Special Attacks arcane reservoir (3/day, max 4), consume spells
Arcanist Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +4)
1st (3/day)—color spray (DC 16), mage armor
0 (at will)—acid splash, daze, detect magic, read magic

----- Tactics -----
Before Combat Colin casts mage armor. He laments not being able to use his favorite buff, heightened awareness, and prays to RNG gods that he wins the initiative without it.
During Combat Colin casts color spray, and expends 1 point from his arcane reservoir to increase the spell DC by 1. If/when the enemy fails their Will save, Colin finishes the fight with a coup de grace from his scythe.
Morale Colin contemplates a surrender if he loses the initiative.

----- Statistics -----
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 17, Wis 8, Cha 12
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 12
Feats Greater Spell Focus (illusion), Spell Focus (illusion)
Skills (6 skill ranks, but I doubt they matter)
Languages Common, (human ethnicity language if any), 3 others
SQ arcane exploits (bloodline development [arcane]), arcane bond (greensting scorpion)
Gear 52gp worth of random crap

The barbarian wins initiative 57.25% of time. If he wins the initiative, he one-shots the arcanist 50% of time (because, while raging, he hits on 11+). If he doesn't hit his attack, he succeeds in the Will save against color spray 40% of time (because he saves on 12+).

On the other hand, if the 42.75% happens and the arcanist wins the initiative, the barbarian isn't raging when the color spray goes off, so the barbarian saves only 30% of time (because he saves on 14+).

After Round 1:
Probability that the barbarian won = 35.04 %
Probability that the arcanist won = 47.10 %
Probability that neither has won (yet) = 17.86 %

[Zironic]

If the Barbarian switches the Elven Immunities for Dreamer he'd gain an additional +2 on the save against illusions, changing the odds to
31.41% chance of Arcanist victory in round 1.

Ofcourse the Arcanist could also switch Greater Spell Focus for Improved Initiative giving him 66% chance of winning initiative for a total of 43% chance of winning round 1. (Barbarian drops to 31.85%)

If the Barbarian gives up on initiative entirely and replaces improved initiative with Iron Will (Giving the Arcanist initiative 80% of the time) he stands a 32% chance of victory in the first round while the Arcanist has 39.5%. Round 2 will go to the Arcanist 35% of the time, Barbarian 32% of the time.

Worth keeping in mind is that instead of trying to stab the Arcanist with his greatsword, the Barbarian could opt to grapple or trip. While raging he would hit on a 7+ (70%) and the Arcanist has 10% chance to escape the grapple, 30% chance to succeed on cast defensively and 70% chance to get hit by the attack of opportunity if trying to cast while prone, this could be improved even further by moving 1 point of strength to dexterity. Assuming the original builds, this would give the Arcanist a 39% chance of winning round 1 and the Barbarian 49% chance of having grappled the Arcanist.

[Mighty Glacier]

The Dreamer alternate racial trait is from Horror Adventures, which is not in PRD, and thus not allowed in this challenge. But other than that, good points all in all. If the barbarian goes for a grapple instead of attacking with a sword, that increases his chances of winning drastically. Assuming he wins the initiative or makes the Will save, of course.

It seems the martial has a fighting chance at level 1. Goodness!

[My Self]

Oh - perhaps I could suggest an Arcane, Elemental, Infernal, Undead, or Destined Bloodrager? The loss of 2 HP for extra offense might make the difference, although I could see a blasty wizard *maybe* getting lucky. There's also an archetype which gives you Improved Grapple without prereqs, although it trades out Fast Movement (but who needs that when starting 20 ft. away?)

[Tarantula]

Wouldn't a bloodrager fall under caster for classes?

[Bandw2]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Also Baval and Brain you guys need to take it down a notch.

How so?

my sassometers are reading 11.

[Bandw2]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Isn't it very DM player interaction to bargain with a Balor? I thought it gate worked quite a bit different from summon monster. I could see that being an issue.

not when you magic jar the Balor.

Wouldn't that still imply at some point you and the DM need some interaction when you solo and capture a Balor?

it happens mid match... probably in timestop, so you can also safely store your body.

lol I think your messing with me now. I honestly don't know this one. Can you technically summon anything in time-stop? Wouldn't it come out time-stopped if you could?

great you reminded me of the old problem on whether you still count as you if you get a new body. do spell effects follow bodies or the "soul".

[Blackwaltzomega]

Also, as far as the whole Magic Jar thing goes, for a 20th level caster wouldn't it be more expedient to just cast Greater Possession, which lasts 20 hours, at some point before the fight and just drive a Balor or something to the fight without worrying about the jar or your original body? When the enemy has carved through your meat-tank's HP, it dies and you pop into the nearest available square, none the worse for wear when your turn comes up.

[Tarantula]

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

Also, as far as the whole Magic Jar thing goes, for a 20th level caster wouldn't it be more expedient to just cast Greater Possession, which lasts 20 hours, at some point before the fight and just drive a Balor or something to the fight without worrying about the jar or your original body? When the enemy has carved through your meat-tank's HP, it dies and you pop into the nearest available square, none the worse for wear when your turn comes up.

The rules was the caster had to show up in person.

[Blackwaltzomega]

Tarantula wrote:

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

Also, as far as the whole Magic Jar thing goes, for a 20th level caster wouldn't it be more expedient to just cast Greater Possession, which lasts 20 hours, at some point before the fight and just drive a Balor or something to the fight without worrying about the jar or your original body? When the enemy has carved through your meat-tank's HP, it dies and you pop into the nearest available square, none the worse for wear when your turn comes up.

The rules was the caster had to show up in person.

He is there in person!

His body's just inside the thing he's possessing instead of off and to the right while he magic jars something.

[Tarantula]

Quote:

Does the spellcaster need to show up personally and physically in their own body?

The answer to that was yes.

[My Self]

Tarantula wrote:

Wouldn't a bloodrager fall under caster for classes?

Guess it would have to be an Untouchable Rager. Still compatible with Blood Conduit, if you want to have Improved Grapple.

Also - what if Colin the Arcanist had a 12 in STR and a 10 in CHA, as to pump his weak CMD and his CDG DC a bit. I suppose if he was an Elf with the alternate racial trait Overwhelming Magic (from ISR, not legal) he could increase his AC, Initiative, and spell DC by +1 - which could make all the difference.

[Ranishe]

A friend suggested using an unchained monk (not sure how martial that's considered with ki powers), and making use of dimensional dervish and the extra attacks from ki points. I've not looked into build specifics, and it would probably suffer from "doesn't go first, can't find mind blanked & invisible caster" like all the others have so far.

[Bandw2]

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

Also, as far as the whole Magic Jar thing goes, for a 20th level caster wouldn't it be more expedient to just cast Greater Possession, which lasts 20 hours, at some point before the fight and just drive a Balor or something to the fight without worrying about the jar or your original body? When the enemy has carved through your meat-tank's HP, it dies and you pop into the nearest available square, none the worse for wear when your turn comes up.

well magic jar can be permanent with a magic item. it's why i prefer it anyway.

[Bandw2]

hmmm some advice on people trying to play martials. perhaps stealth + mindblack could be of use to you.

edit: i may make another tourney for 10/11th level if this level 20 stuff keeps ending in 1 round even after the wizard get's mazed.

[Tarantula]

That or someone more familiar with the caster tricks could make a martial. Most of my play has ended ~12. So my 20th level experience is lacking.

[PossibleCabbage]

Tarantula wrote:

That or someone more familiar with the caster tricks could make a martial. Most of my play has ended ~12. So my 20th level experience is lacking.

So far it seems like the playbook for the Wizard is:

1) Win Initiative
2) Cast Time Stop
3) During their extra turns, throw an unstoppable wave of pain at the fighter.

I don't think anything can be done about #2 (unless we wanted to add a rule against Time Stop), and #3 is going to be tough, so it maybe comes down to "win initiative, kill the wizard somehow."

[Bandw2]

well I mean the last one didn't even cast timestop. just greater possession.

[Tarantula]

Unfortunately a lot of the martial goodies to fight casters aren't in the sources here. Equalizer shield, or cyclonic on arrows both are from sources not allowed.

[Tarantula]

Bandw2 wrote:

well I mean the last one didn't even cast timestop. just greater possession.

Which would have been fine, had he not cast wall of suppression first.

[Ranishe]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

That or someone more familiar with the caster tricks could make a martial. Most of my play has ended ~12. So my 20th level experience is lacking.

So far it seems like the playbook for the Wizard is:

1) Win Initiative
2) Cast Time Stop
3) During their extra turns, throw an unstoppable wave of pain at the fighter.

I don't think anything can be done about #2 (unless we wanted to add a rule against Time Stop), and #3 is going to be tough, so it maybe comes down to "win initiative, kill the wizard somehow."

I think it's more

1) Win Intiative
2) Cast greater invisibility (on top of precast mind blank)
3) Win at leisure because the martial can't find you.

Tarantula wrote:

Unfortunately a lot of the martial goodies to fight casters aren't in the sources here. Equalizer shield, or cyclonic on arrows both are from sources not allowed.

Neither of which I believe would have helped the caster. I mean, how does that look? With the equalizer, you move up and ring it (probably a free action). Wizard moves, eats the attack of opportunity, casts greater invisibility & a swift action teleport*. Cyclonic wouldn't help as no wizard has had fickle winds up. One round even had the wizard eating a full round of archery damage before winning.

*stand still or tripping on the attack of opportunity would solve this. Not sure if the wizard could pull some familiar shenanigans to get out of it. Hell, couldn't the wizard just have a contingency dimension door set up if he were subject to an attack and jump to the other end of the arena?

Also, I'm liking the idea of a heightened, persistent, enlarged suffocate. Cast as a 9th level. If the fighter fails one of the 2 fort saves, he dies.