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You are just a bundle of positivity, I bet undead recoil at your presence.
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Don't bother engaging, Max. Just let him say his piece and get it out of his system.
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I would honestly like to see some class feats moved to skill feats, possibly skill feats that require that class. Like Wind Step could be a skill feat that requires Expert Acrobatics and "Monk" instead of something that competes with Wolf Drag and Ki Blast.
I think it would be fine to keep the Monk tagged feats but then also tag them as Skill Feats.
Allowing the person to select them with either Skill Feats or Class Feats or Generals for that matter. With retraining, you can always spend your Class Feat and retrain to something "combat" focused later, swapping for a Skill Feat/General Feat.
It helps the competition angle, but still a bit starved on Feats with most of the generals getting pushed into Class Feats.
Since they have the book page count, it means they've likely fully formed at this point.
Of all the ideas discussed, I wonder who has landed on "pretty close" or if we've even touched that at all!
When are we likely to get a peek under the curtain on this aspect? Since they are releasing the Iconics now, probably not for at least a few weeks I suppose.
I digress.
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I don't think that class feats were meant to be solely about combat, but many people in these forums complain about spending a class feat for a perk that does not help combat.Class feats are the only feats (apart from proficiency) that do effect combat, given we have so few, and are so forced into a set role, (paladins are walking traps, clerics are healers, rangers....erm...yea, anyway) spending them on anything else seems to violate the point (without seeing the math for 2e we don't know how hyper optimised you need to be merely terrible in the full game, instead of non-functional, but it would have to be a huge swing to change the optimise or don't bother playing of the playtest. )
I checked through the general and skill feats and found 5 out of the 20 general feats and 12 out of the 99 skill feats that are primarily about combat. They don't give bonuses to attacks nor extra attacks, but some prevent flat-footed or save a single action. A single action matters only during the press of combat; most skills are measured in minutes.
Combat General Feats
Armor Profciency general feat 1
Incredible Initiative general feat 1
Shield Proficiency general feat 1
Toughness general feat 1
Weapon Proficiency general feat 1
Combat Skill Feats
Battle Cry intimidation feat 7
Battle Medic medicine feat 1
Defensive Climber athletics feat 1
Diehard skill feat 1
Feather Step dexterity skill feat 1
Intimidating Glare intimidation feat 1
Kip Up acrobatics feat 7
Nimble Crawl acrobatics feat 2
One-Handed Climber athletics feat 2
Quick Jump athletics feat 1
Recognize Spell arcana etc. feat 1
Scare to Death intimidation feat 15
Now let's look at some class feats. I don't have the time to check all classes, so let me focus on the barbarian, a very martial class. The barbarian's class feats are:
Feat 1
Acute Vision - Perception.
Raging Intimidation - Intimidation is a skill and this feat grants two skill feats.
Moment of Clarity - How many non-skill actions require concentration?
Sudden Charge - Combat!
Feat 2
Acute Scent - Perception again.
Internal Fortitude - Saves.
No Escape - Combat!
Raging Courage - Condition reduction.
Feat 4
Fast Movement - Speed.
Raging Athlete - Athletics is a skill, though my wife's barbarian put her Climb speed to combat use in In Pale Mountain's Shadow.
Swipe - Combat!
Feat 6
Animal Skin - Combat!
Cleave - Combat!
Dragon Totem Breath - Combat!
Giant's Stature - Combat!
Spirit's Interference - Combat!
Witch Hunter - Combat!
Feat 8
Animal Rage - Speed and scent.
Renewed Vigor - Combat!
Sudden Leap - Combat!
Combat feats become common at 6th level and higher, but a lot of barbarian feats are about speed or perception or not merely running and attacking during rage.
The class feats are about giving the class its theme and flavor. A barbarian is a raging warrior and also a savage who has the speed and keen senses of a wild animal. A fighter is about fighting, so that class's feats are all about combat. A bard is inspiring, musical, magical, and well-informed, and that class's feats are spread across those options. The ranger, well, the ranger needs revamping. Several of us have argued about the ranger, and the best theme for the ranger we invented is Malk_Content's notion that the ranger is the class that can gain an advantage by preparing for encounters. If the class had feats on that theme, many of them would be used before combat rather than during combat.
When a class's flavor and theme meet the character's ambition and personality, Pathfinder needs customization to weave them together into an effective and meaningful whole. The Pathfinder 2nd Edition system of class feats lets us leave out feats that don't fit the character, but it offers little for building toward a specific dream. Hopefully, the backgrounds and skill feats can fulfill that duty.
As for effectiveness, I have been bewildered by the cults of the one true build. My mathematical eye sees that the second- and third- most effective builds are almost as good at the most effective build, so why not put up with a smidgeon of weakness for a variation that better fits the character concept? Pathfinder 2nd Edition relies so much on proficiency that the feats are even less important and the handicap form off-the-wall choices are less significant.
Combat General Feats
Armor Profciency general feat 1
Incredible Initiative general feat 1
Shield Proficiency general feat 1
Toughness general feat 1
Weapon Proficiency general feat 1Combat Skill Feats
Battle Cry intimidation feat 7
Battle Medic medicine feat 1
Defensive Climber athletics feat 1
Diehard skill feat 1
Feather Step dexterity skill feat 1
Intimidating Glare intimidation feat 1
Kip Up acrobatics feat 7
Nimble Crawl acrobatics feat 2
One-Handed Climber athletics feat 2
Quick Jump athletics feat 1
Recognize Spell arcana etc. feat 1
Scare to Death intimidation feat 15Feat 1
Acute Vision - Perception.
Raging Intimidation - Intimidation is a skill and this feat grants two skill feats.
Moment of...
Thanks for doing this digging, I was curious on how this broke down as well.
I would say that Feats listed like Moment of Clarity, Raging Courage, and Fast Movement all fall under Class Feat territory (as these are thematically Class driven, even if they aren't combat driven)
Once you get to 6th you get pretty starved though, since you have 6 competing options (one of which being Cleave which was originally a General).
Now I know there are some expectations that we need to limit in terms of expecting "the same thing as PF1", but I'd like to see at least a semblance of original builds at comparable level markers.
Martials were in a great spot in terms of 1-20 scaling (IMO) it was Casters that quickly unraveled the game into rocket tag, and with damage and proficiency heavily streamlining the one area Martials were contributing to the rocket-tag issue, I see no reason to club them down into nerfed versions of their former selves (looking at you Smite Evil level 9).
If all Feats get the "scale automatically" treatment where it applies (some don't need it because the mechanic itself scales) then we could be in good shape.
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Here's some food for thought:
What if each class choice you made warranted combat prowess AND skill prowess?
For example: Since you're really good at spotting things in the environment, you also can reduce the penalties associated with lighting or maybe when in fog or other visually impairing hazards, you reduce penalties or even ignore them over time. The barbarian will not be ignoring the presence of fog/smoke/etc but once he's adjacent, he can ignore the concealment because his perception put his reflexes into gear just by a mere glimpse.
I'm excited to see what the final core rules bring to the table. We already know we're getting at least some new "class path" choices.
I'm also excited for when we have our first class archetypes start coming out- we'll have a non-feat way to customize a class.
I wonder if school specializations will be replaced by the wizard's thesis, or if it they will both be a thing. If wizard's ditched the specialty schools, they wouldn't need so many spells on their spell list. This would make it easier for the 4 spell lists to feel both distinct and balanced with each other.
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Here's some food for thought:
What if each class choice you made warranted combat prowess AND skill prowess?
For example: Since you're really good at spotting things in the environment, you also can reduce the penalties associated with lighting or maybe when in fog or other visually impairing hazards, you reduce penalties or even ignore them over time. The barbarian will not be ignoring the presence of fog/smoke/etc but once he's adjacent, he can ignore the concealment because his perception put his reflexes into gear just by a mere glimpse.
Honestly if each Feat broke out into a chain (almost like a mini-archetype) where the evens were Skill based benefits associated with the use of the odd increases:
Class 2 - Cleave (normal cleave behavior)
then at level 4:
- Can take a free Shift in between Cleave attacks
then at level 6:
- If you drop the target to dying condition, you can make another free attack against an adjacent target
Then at level 8:
- If you drop the target to dying condition on your first attack, you can take a free Stride to your next target
Or something of that nature.
Then for the more nebulous ones, like Blind-Fight, you could add whole perception based additions (instead of just the miss-chance).
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That's exactly the type of things I had in mind. You make a choice and get better at it over the levels, then when the time comes for another choice, you get to pick either a entirely new thing or use something you already know/chose differently.
Casters work a lot like that, with their ever increasing power level with their spells. But now they also have class choices and can use weapons effectively in a pinch ("effectively" here meaning that they wouldn't be 100% useless like in PF1). Seems like Martial classes could use some of that as well. There's plenty of ways to improve without just adding straight up damage. I would like to be a Rogue and have some guaranteed minor effects on my landed attacks or being such a swift and cunning fighter that with a very limited use you could turn a missed attack into a feint, rather than just a play waste of opportunity, that would be something cool for swashbuckling characters.
There's plenty of inspirations out there that could enhance the martial characters arsenal without being boring damage scaling. This also is valid for spell casters, for example: taking down the power of scrolls and adding it to ritual spellcasting, which is more flavorful and less "extra spell slot for situational spells".
you could turn a missed attack into a feint, rather than just a play waste of opportunity, that would be something cool for swashbuckling characters.
that's a pretty neat idea. Something like "every missed attack in the same round adds a +2 to a Feint check made in that same round" would be extremely interesting.
Given the MAP I doubt people would ever miss on purpose, but it certainly would create moments where a missed first attack might change your latter two actions (which is really the whole point of the 3 action economy anyways).
Giving a bonus is certainly nice, but my idea was more like "You try to attack and misses the enemy, then since you're a sword-master you turn your miss into a distracting attack". Basically, if you miss an enemy instead of just going to your next attack you roll a feint check that's a little harder to perform than normal, it's almost like that attack that deals minimum damage on a miss.
You could apply this type of behavior for plenty of playstyles. Huge two-handed weapons could treat the next attack as the enemy flat-footed because they couldn't block it properly/had to dodge. These would be things for higher level of course, but they could add a lot of utility to attacks and would signify prowess way better than just proficiency bonuses, because they would be things that only your character would do because either the class gave it or you invested.
You could apply this type of behavior for plenty of playstyles. Huge two-handed weapons could treat the next attack as the enemy flat-footed because they couldn't block it properly/had to dodge.
The problem with this is that there's already 42 ways to make someone flat footed. Most of which are easy to pull off (cough, flanking). Others last an entire round. So its very likely that the target is already flat footed and you can't push them MORE of balance.
I was just spit-balling some ideas and the first one that popped off was a huge fighter swing his massive weapon and whatever the target is getting the hell away from its path. I thought that giving a AC penalty would be too valuable for something without save and that happens on a miss. But maybe not. Another interesting thing would have bludgeoning weapons in the hands of a master of physical combat to apply a portion of the damage to the equipment of the enemy or wounding creature's natural armor, effectively giving a minor penalty to AC. It's not as strong as sunder, but is a carried effect from a "normal" attack. I would certainly love to have more things to do than just make more attacks or direct increases to damage that don't take entire feat chances, are overly restrictive or for some reason is bound by strict rules while casters break, bend and disregard every one of those. It's about time to let martial characters live in the high fantasy world as well like Spellcasters have been doing for ages.
I would like more of these types of things that martial characters could do reliably, without having to narrow their abilities focusing on a single combat maneuver just to make them less awful. This way, you could have a martial character that can act as a debuffer for ranged attackers or even helping out spellcasters to land their valuable spells.