Gloomblade and "Shadow Weapon Group"


Rules Questions


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Reference links:

- Gloomblade
- Advanced Weapon Training
- Weapon Master

Shadow Weapon Training (Ex)
At 5th level, a gloomblade gains weapon training, except that he does not select a weapon group; instead, the bonus applies to the shadow weapons he creates. A gloomblade does not select additional weapon groups as he gains levels.

Hi guys.

In our group we are trying to clarify the Weapon Training through the Gloomblade.
As I wrote in Bold above, the Gloomblade does not choose a weapon group. His bonus (of weapon training) applies to shadow weapons.

We can not agree if this capability counts as a weapon group (let's call it the Shadow Weapon Group) or totally replaces the ability (leaving only weapon training as an altered class feature).

We tried to look around for similar situations (like Weapon Master), read the FAQ under Advanced Weapon Training, answers from its creator "IsabelleLee" or possible answers from the developers. I personally haven't had any luck, and it does not seem to appear among IsabelleLee's posts.

Also because it creates another strange situation.
My character meets the requirements of Advanced Weapon Training but ...

Prerequisite(s): Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit (s): Select one advanced weapon training option, apply to one weapon fighter weapon group.

I'm confused. If I own the Shadow Weapon Group, many dilemmas are solved. Without it, I meet the requirements but not the benefits of the feat.

I repeat, I'm confused.

Grand Lodge

RAW, shadow weapons you create is not a weapon group, so you could not take advanced weapon training since it applies to a weapon group, and your altered weapon training does not have a group to apply it to.

In a home game, I could see a lot of GMs ruling shadow weapons as it's own group for this though.


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So a gloomblade can absolutely take the advanced weapon training feat, since you'd be a 5th level fighter with weapon training. Our hangup is that we're required to pick a weapon group and shadow weapons aren't one.

But if you look at the advanced weapon training options, you notice a great number of them do not provide a benefit or even refer to a specific weapon group. So things like armed bravery, fighter's reflex, and abundant tactics should still work.

Advanced weapon training options which do refer to a weapon group expose why "making shadow weapons a weapon group" is a bad idea, since then you could use "fighter's finesse" to be able to finesse literally any weapon, and take weapon specialist to have (Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization in all weapons.


Wouldn't any form you give the shadow weapon be just a reasonable facsimile of said weapon, at best allowing alternate or improved ways of using the shadow weapon. Thus fighters finesse would only apply to the shadow weapon itself, not any "real" weapon that merely looks like like the form you choose for the shadow weapon? There is nothing that implies that any abilities applicable to shadow weapons apply to anything but shadow weapons.


In fact for me it is perfect in this way:

- Shadow weapons do not count as "Weapon Group"
- I qualify for Advanced Weapon Training
- I can not choose AWT options that require a weapon group.

But as long as it is a solution between us, the opinion of our GM is worth it. Here, however, I was interested to know if a similar situation has already been answered and how we should behave (or at least where the popular opinion goes, so far it has been a 50/50)


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Daw wrote:
Wouldn't any form you give the shadow weapon be just a reasonable facsimile of said weapon, at best allowing alternate or improved ways of using the shadow weapon. Thus fighters finesse would only apply to the shadow weapon itself, not any "real" weapon that merely looks like like the form you choose for the shadow weapon? There is nothing that implies that any abilities applicable to shadow weapons apply to anything but shadow weapons.

I meant "any weapon" in the sense that the gloomblade really never has a reason to use any weapon they didn't evoke themselves, since they are always a move action away from whatever weapon they can imagine.

I figure "I do not want people to be able to finesse greataxes with reach" is a reasonable balance concern.


Hmmm it feels like a Fighter 5, Sohei 6 would work to get a weapon group. And if you get the Weapon Adept feat for Weapon Versatility (Monk) you can flurry with any weapon you create.

I'm not sure whether you would get 2* Weapon training bonus.


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I'm pretty sure weapon training does not stack with itself though. Like if you have weapon training in light blades and thrown you don't apply both bonuses to daggers.

Like the most conservative ruling I would say is "if you pick advanced weapon training with a feat, you pick a weapon group and the awt only functions when your gloomblade is one of those weapons."

Like nothing is keeping you from manifesting your gloomblade as a polearm all the time, so you could just pick "polearms" and go to town.


The reason I'm not sure is because while they are "the same" they kind of arent.

In anyway Sohei allows you to Flurry with any weapon in the chosen weapon group and versatile design makes any weapon part of said group. Meaning, as I said previously, you can Flurry with any weapon in the game (given you have proficiency).


Multiclassing a gloomblade seems like a terrible idea since your gloomblade's enhancement bonus is tied to your level in the class.

So a normal fighter 5/sohei 6 would be able to buy just a +3 weapon, but a gloomblade 5/sohei 6 would be stuck with a +1 weapon. An 11th level gloomblade, however, can just manifest a +3 weapon with +3 equivalent of special abilities whenever they want.


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I feel like the intention is to work with advanced weapon training. Otherwise why have it alter the ability instead of replace it?


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Multiclassing a gloomblade seems like a terrible idea since your gloomblade's enhancement bonus is tied to your level in the class.

So a normal fighter 5/sohei 6 would be able to buy just a +3 weapon, but a gloomblade 5/sohei 6 would be stuck with a +1 weapon. An 11th level gloomblade, however, can just manifest a +3 weapon with +3 equivalent of special abilities whenever they want.

My current character is a gloomblade and I plan on taking two levels of hinyasi brawler as my next two levels. He will then be proficient in all close weapons and will treat improvised weapons as close weapons. That should mean that he can use his gloomblade ability to create nearly anything. I fully plan on having flaming chairs and frost mugs.

In other words, I don't think multiclassing is always bad for them :-D


I assume that its altering so that a player can still benefit from Weapon Training feats and items (Gloves of Dueling).

The trade of +2 Enchantment bonus, up to a +3 ability, and the 1 Gloom modification vs an extra attack, better saves, monk abilities (Qinggong & Invested Regent), and the ability to benefit from AWT without GM ruling.

I say that's about an even trade. Remember, some of the AWT that require a weapon group are Warrior Spirit and Focused Weapon and Weapon Specialist. Just Weapon Specialist would give so much; Warrior Spirit is worse than Gloomblade enhancement, but it has no limit on what it can give. Focused weapon helps with low damage weapon, and gets better if the campaign let's you go Fighter X/ Sohei 6.


haremlord wrote:
My current character is a gloomblade and I plan on taking two levels of hinyasi brawler as my next two levels. He will then be proficient in all close weapons and will treat improvised weapons as close weapons.

Improvisational focus will get you proficiency in improvised weapons, and won't slow your progression on bonuses for your blades.


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Melkiador wrote:
I feel like the intention is to work with advanced weapon training. Otherwise why have it alter the ability instead of replace it?
Temperans wrote:
I assume that its altering so that a player can still benefit from Weapon Training feats and items (Gloves of Dueling).

These are both true. Unfortunately, for various reasons, the final version couldn't be made to work perfectly with advanced weapon training.

I highly encourage players in home groups to discuss the weapon group situation with the GM, as houserules are a good solution to the restrictions of official publication. ^_^


I figure whatever understanding a given table has come to about "how to handle the Molthune Arsenal Chaplain" RE advanced weapon training should be precisely how they handle the gloomblade. Since it's an analogous situation- meets the prerequisites for the awt feat, but does not have weapon training in a group.

Since the MAC is not new (it came from the same book as advanced weapon training) and is *the* warpriest archetype people recommend the most, most groups have this handled.


willuwontu wrote:
haremlord wrote:
My current character is a gloomblade and I plan on taking two levels of hinyasi brawler as my next two levels. He will then be proficient in all close weapons and will treat improvised weapons as close weapons.
Improvisational focus will get you proficiency in improvised weapons, and won't slow your progression on bonuses for your blades.

True, but it also gets all close weapons. And since you can create any weapon with which you are proficient and since there's the weapon modification that can add a weapon to the close weapon group....

And I like the damage possibilities.


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Isabelle Lee wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
I feel like the intention is to work with advanced weapon training. Otherwise why have it alter the ability instead of replace it?
Temperans wrote:
I assume that its altering so that a player can still benefit from Weapon Training feats and items (Gloves of Dueling).

These are both true. Unfortunately, for various reasons, the final version couldn't be made to work perfectly with advanced weapon training.

I highly encourage players in home groups to discuss the weapon group situation with the GM, as houserules are a good solution to the restrictions of official publication. ^_^

Thanks for the timely reply!

There is still a detail that is still not completely clear to me:
so how should I interpret the (Shadow) weapon group question?

- Is not considered a weapon group?
- Is it considered a weapon group?
- Leave the GM to decide which version is appropriate on the table?

I'm trying to come up with an RAI answer about it, as far as AWT seems to be in the intentions it had to work without problems, but it's not clear to me if shadow weapons count as group weapons.


Hello everyone!

Sorry if this counts as "threadomancy" but it was the most recent thread regarding the Gloomblade and I thought I would ask here.

So, I was reading through the archetype and I fail to see anything regarding the ability (or the lack of) to give the Shadow Weapon to someone else.

It does say that if you create a second one (before level 7) he loses the previous. But what happens if I create a +1 Shadow Bastard Sword (given that I am proficient) and give it to my Barbarian for example?

Logic says that it should disappear unless the creators thought it's a good idea for a 7 level Gloomblade to share his second weapon with someone else, however I can't find anything written that sets a rule about it.

I am not looking for a homebrew ruling solution, or a solution at all for that matter, however I am really intrigued as I was thinking of playing a Gloomblade and would like to know the possibilities based on RAW.


Melkiador wrote:
I feel like the intention is to work with advanced weapon training. Otherwise why have it alter the ability instead of replace it?

It works with Advanced Weapon Training, just not choices that require a specific weapon group.


I'm pretty sure you're right and you can give your shadow weapon to someone else, but unless you're doing something stupid with Leadership to get an NPC companion Gloomblade there'd be no point to it. You suck without your gloomblade, the Barbarian doesn't need it.

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