Martial Flexibility and Same Feat Twice


Rules Questions


Hi guys, last night during the play my group and me had a discussion about barroom brawler and martial flexibility

Some of my friends thinks that you cant "flex" in a feat which you already posses even if the feat can explicitally be taken multiple time.

here the text of barroom brawler

"Once per day as a move action, you can gain the benefit of a combat feat that you do not possess for 1 minute. You must otherwise meet all of the feat’s requirements."

and Martial Flexibility
"A brawler can take a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat she doesn’t possess. This effect lasts for 1 minute. The brawler must meet all the feat’s prerequisites."

my stands is that those are not limitations, but rather indication, and for example you could take another weapon focus (something) even if you already posses another weapon focus.

i've already looked for faqs, but i cannot find anything more explicit that will clarify our doub.

probably my friends are right from a pure "Raw" point of view, but it seems to be that it will be out of the scope of the feature itself.

any help?

Silver Crusade

Frankly, i'ld allow it in certain circumstances. As for Weapon Focus, you never take Weapon Focus, you take Weapon Focus (longsword) or (battleax). If you don't have that particular selection, you can flex.


the core of the discussion orbitated around the concept:

Our Fighter gained at lvl 4 Barroom Brawler
then at lvl 5 Advanced Weapon Training (Feat) to get Abundant Tactics (Ex)

lastly he want to use Barroom Brawler to get again Advanced Weapon Training (Feat) to get Item Mastery for 1 minute

since Advanced Weapon Training could be taken more than one times, and linked to a different king of "training" (just as weapon focus) it seems the intended way to use it.

i wonder if there is any officiale stance on it :/


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I think that in the same way you take "Weapon Focus (Longsword)" or "Weapon Focus (Battle Axe)" you also take "Advanced Weapon Training (Abundant Tactics)" or "Advanced Weapon Training (Item Mastery)". These are different feats under the same name.

I'm 99% sure the Rules As Intended agree with me, the "Rules as Written" depend on your interpretation a little, so expect some table variation.

TLDR: I'd allow it.


to clarify and to reduce the question to the very basic:

""A brawler can take a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat she doesn’t possess."

it must be read as:

"She can take the benefit of a feat she doesn't have"

or

"She can take the benefit of a feat she doesn't already have"


The biggest issue is that it has a built in requirement. You must be 5 levels higher each time.

And since you must meet the requirements for each feat to use flex...

I'd say no go.

Special: This feat can be taken more than once, but at most once per 5 fighter levels.


@Cavall

it's not really a problem, since he could do it at lvl 10 (both requiment will be meet)

the point is how to read that sentence on the martial flex/barrom brawler

if that "doesn't possess" mean simply "take a feat you dont have" or "it MUST a feat you already desn't have"


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A feat with a different option is a different feat. The reason they are grouped together under one feat is simply to save space in the books. If each feat had to be printed out completely separate it would increase the page count of the books too much and the cost would increase proportionately. Weapon focus alone would require its own book. By grouping similar feats together Paizo can reduce the word count considerably and keep the cost of the books down to where people are actually willing to purchase them. Penalizing a character for a Paizo wanted to stay in business seems to be a little bit silly.

One thing to note on the description of marital flexibility is that the character does not actually get the feat; they simply gain the benefits of the feat. This may seem may seem like it is the same thing but there are subtle differences.

By defining each option as a separate feat it makes it clear what the feat gives you. By the loser definition of a feat it could be argued that a character with martial flexibility gains all the benefits of the feat when it is selected. That would mean that a character that takes Advanced Weapon Training gains all the abilities listed under the feat. Obviously that is not how it works and no sane GM would allow it.


I'm pretty sure the intent is for martial flexibility to allow you to take a feat you are eligible to take. Most feats can't be taken twice (no such thing as double power attack) and feats that do specify under what conditions they can be taken twice and what this means.

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