Instant weapon question


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Should this spell Instant Weapon from Melee Tactics Toolbox have SR?

Silver Crusade

No?


Spiritual Weapon and Instant Weapon are both weapons comprised of Force with the only difference between them being Force or Opaque Force. RAW no, it should not be subject to SR. But it probably should be because they're both Force effects, and they're both spells (i.e. if the Instant weapon leaves your hand, the spell ends).

If the Instant Weapon is actually meant to bypass SR, it would be nice to have that written into the spell... something like "because this weapon is opaque force blabbety-bloo, it bypasses a creature's SR such and such.." or something to that effect.

Spiritual Weapon wrote:

Spiritual Weapon

School evocation [force]; Level cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2, shaman 2; Domain war 2

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF

EFFECT

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect magic weapon of force
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION

A weapon made of force appears and attacks foes at a distance, as you direct it, dealing 1d8 force damage per hit, + 1 point per three caster levels (maximum +5 at 15th level). The weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity or a weapon with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you (see below) and has the same threat range and critical multipliers as a real weapon of its form. It strikes the opponent you designate, starting with one attack in the round the spell is cast and continuing each round thereafter on your turn. It uses your base attack bonus (possibly allowing it multiple attacks per round in subsequent rounds) plus your Wisdom modifier as its attack bonus. It strikes as a spell, not as a weapon, so for example, it can damage creatures that have damage reduction. As a force effect, it can strike incorporeal creatures without the reduction in damage associated with incorporeality. The weapon always strikes from your direction. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one. Your feats or combat actions do not affect the weapon. If the weapon goes beyond the spell range, if it goes out of your sight, or if you are not directing it, the weapon returns to you and hovers.

Each round after the first, you can use a move action to redirect the weapon to a new target. If you do not, the weapon continues to attack the previous round’s target. On any round that the weapon switches targets, it gets one attack. Subsequent rounds of attacking that target allow the weapon to make multiple attacks if your base attack bonus would allow it to. Even if the spiritual weapon is a ranged weapon, use the spell’s range, not the weapon’s normal range increment, and switching targets still is a move action.

A spiritual weapon cannot be attacked or harmed by physical attacks, but dispel magic, disintegrate, a sphere of annihilation, or a rod of cancellation affects it. A spiritual weapon‘s AC against touch attacks is 12 (10 + size bonus for Tiny object).

If an attacked creature has Spell Resistance, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against that Spell Resistance the first time the spiritual weapon strikes it. If the weapon is successfully resisted, the spell is dispelled. If not, the weapon has its normal full effect on that creature for the duration of the spell.

The weapon that you get is often a force replica of your deity’s own personal weapon. A cleric without a deity gets a weapon based on his alignment. A neutral cleric without a deity can create a spiritual weapon of any alignment, provided he is acting at least generally in accord with that alignment at the time. The weapons associated with each alignment are as follows:

chaos (battleaxe)
evil (light flail)
good (warhammer)
law (longsword)

Instant Weapon wrote:

Instant Weapon

School conjuration (creation) [force]; Level bard 2, bloodrager 2, cleric 2, inquisitor 2, magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2

CASTING

Casting Time1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range 0 ft.
Effect melee weapon of opaque force
Duration 1 minute/level

DESCRIPTION

You create a melee weapon sized appropriately for you from opaque force.

You are considered proficient with this weapon, which acts in all ways as a masterwork weapon typical of its type. The instant weapon has hardness 20 and the same number of hit points as a typical weapon of its type. As a force effect, it can strike and damage incorporeal creatures. If the instant weapon leaves your hand at any time, the spell ends at the beginning of your next turn.

Silver Crusade

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Spiritual Weapon and Instant Weapon are both weapons comprised of Force with the only difference between them being Force or Opaque Force.

Really? That's the only difference you can find?

School: Spiritual Weapon is an evocation spell, while Instant Weapon is conjuration(creation). Traditionally, offensive evocation spells tend to have SR as they use raw magic to deal damage, while conjuration spells (especially of the creation subschool), which instead use magic to create actual objects, don't. Conjured items and creatures tend in fact to deal damage as actual items and creatures, rather than magical effects.

Actions: Spiritual Weapon is an active magical effect that does not require any action to actually deal damage, but only to be directed to different targets. Instant Weapon is instead passive, in the sense that it simply creates a weapon that, without the user actively spending actions to use it, just lays on the ground motionless (until next turn, when it disappears).

Range: one works at range, the other is melee (with all the risks melee combat implies). This was quick.

Metamagic: a Toppling Spiritual Weapon can trip targets for rounds per level, a Dazing Spiritual Weapon can daze targets for rounds per level, and so on. None of these metamagic feats have any effect on Instant Weapon instead (the same way Dazing Summon Monster doesn't).

So to summarize, Spiritual Weapon is an active, autonomous magical effect that requires no action investment from the caster apart from the actual casting: even on a missed hit, the caster still has their whole round available and the spell is still active and ready to strike again the next round without the caster having to do anything. SR gives the target the opportunity to stop such ongoing effect.

Instant Weapon instead simply creates a weapon that, without the user actively spending actions to use it, has no effect, and even upon spending an action, it is basically wasted on a missed hit. SR would only further penalize the user as, upon successfully investing his action to strike an opponent, they would also risk not only to lose their weapon, but also to be basically unarmed during the enemy's turn.

So yeah, no SR.

The Exchange

Thank you all!


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Gray Warden wrote:


Really? That's the only difference you can find?

/sigh, don't twist my words up for an easy strawman-- obviously, the spells are very different, but in this particular sentence I was referencing the two types of Force being described; one is described as an Opaque Force while the other is described as regular Force, but the Force effect from both spells behave like any normal Force effect (i.e. attacking corporeal).

That's why it would be nice to have some clarification. It should at least say Spell Resistance: Yes or No in the Instant Weapon spell.


There are enough spells out there with Evoc Force and Conj Creation Force with SR: Yes & SR: No that this Instant Weapon spell really ought to be clarified. As it stands, RAW would be that it is not affected by SR, and if that's the intent then it needs to say so.

Cushioning Bands wrote:

Cushioning Bands

School conjuration (creation) [force]; Level psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, summoner/unchained summoner 2

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S,

EFFECT

Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 hour/level or until discharged (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless);Spell resistance yes

Force Anchor wrote:

Force Anchor

School conjuration (creation) [force]; Level inquisitor 2, magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 3, summoner 2

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a twisted nail)

EFFECT

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect one anchor of force
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes

Ablative Barrier wrote:

Ablative Barrier

School conjuration (creation) [force]; Level alchemist 2, bloodrager 2, magus 2, occultist 2, psychic 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, summoner 2, unchained summoner 3

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of metal cut from a shield)

EFFECT

Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 hour/level or until discharged
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance no

Forcecage wrote:

Forcecage

School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 7

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (ruby dust worth 500 gp)

EFFECT

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area barred cage (20-ft. cube) or windowless cell (10-ft. cube)
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Reflex negates; Spell Resistance no

Force Sword wrote:

Force Sword

School evocation [force]; Level bloodrager 2, magus 2, occultist 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, spiritualist 2, witch 2

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range 0 ft.
Effect one sword-shaped weapon of force
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes

Spiritual Weapon wrote:

Spiritual Weapon

School evocation [force]; Level cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2, shaman 2; Domain war 2

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF

EFFECT

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect magic weapon of force
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes

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.

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Edit: Here's something to consider too.

Conjuration (Creation) wrote:
Creation: a creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.
Instant Weapon wrote:

Instant Weapon

School conjuration (creation) [force]; Level bard 2, bloodrager 2, cleric 2, inquisitor 2, magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2

CASTING

Casting Time1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range 0 ft.
Effect melee weapon of opaque force
Duration 1 minute/level

Silver Crusade

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Why do you keep focusing so much on the Force aspect? How is Instant Weapon in any way similar to spells such as Cushioning Bands or Force Anchor?

What Instant Weapon does is to create an object that the user can use as a weapon. So let's look at these spells.

A couple of examples upon a quick search:

- Desperate Weapon, duration: 1min/lvl, SR: no
- Rock Whip, duration: 1rnd/lvl, SR: no
- River Whip, duration: 1min/lvl, SR: no

I think this is clear enough.


I'm merely pointing out that there are enough Conjuration (Creation) and Evocation spells that have SR: Yes and SR: No to warrant having SR clarified on Instant Weapon. Because as it stands right now, RAW, Instant Weapon is not affected by SR. I personally don't care if it is affected by SR or not, but I'd like to see it clarified so people can stop arguing about it.

Vine Strike

School conjuration (creation); Level alchemist 2, antipaladin 2, bloodrager 2, druid 2, ranger 2, shaman 2, sorcerer/wizard 2

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw Reflex negates (see text); Spell Resistance yes

Force Sword

School evocation [force]; Level bloodrager 2, magus 2, occultist 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, spiritualist 2, witch 2

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range 0 ft.
Effect one sword-shaped weapon of force
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes

Grand Lodge

What sort of Damage type [Spheres of Power] does Instant Weapon [Archives of Nethys] inflict? Is it Force Damage or some other kind? If it is Force Damage might Toppling Spell apply?


Third party lists aside, it deals the same type of damage as any other weapon of its type. An instant weapon club deals bludgeoning damage, etc.

Grand Lodge

Is that consistent with the bolded part? If it strikes an Incorporeal Foe, what's the damage type?

Instant Weapon wrote:
You create a melee weapon sized appropriately for you from opaque force. You are considered proficient with this weapon, which acts in all ways as a masterwork weapon typical of its type. The instant weapon has hardness 20 and the same number of hit points as a typical weapon of its type. As a force effect, it can strike and damage incorporeal creatures. If the instant weapon leaves your hand at any time, the spell ends at the beginning of your next turn.

Sovereign Court

Hubert D'Amberville wrote:

Is that consistent with the bolded part? If it strikes an Incorporeal Foe, what's the damage type?

Instant Weapon wrote:
As a force effect, it can strike and damage incorporeal creatures

Its whatever the weapon you choose to create normally deals. If the creature is incorporeal and has DR/Bludgeoning, and you create a weapon that doesn't bypass the DR, it still gets its DR. Force keyword abilities affect incorporeal creatures as if they were not incorporeal.

Incorporeal Universal Monster Ability wrote:
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source. Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature (except for channel energy). Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.

Note: it doesn't say "force damage". Its quite possible there is something out there that does force damage but doesn't get the force keyword, but then we have to go into the discussion of if things automatically get keywords if it deals a certain damage type. Havoc of the Society I am looking at you...

Interestingly, if you Instant Weapon a Battle Poi you have a fire damage weapon that can strike incorporeal creatures. My Blistering Feint character has used that I think once.


Hubert D'Amberville wrote:

Is that consistent with the bolded part? If it strikes an Incorporeal Foe, what's the damage type?

Instant Weapon wrote:
You create a melee weapon sized appropriately for you from opaque force. You are considered proficient with this weapon, which acts in all ways as a masterwork weapon typical of its type. The instant weapon has hardness 20 and the same number of hit points as a typical weapon of its type. As a force effect, it can strike and damage incorporeal creatures. If the instant weapon leaves your hand at any time, the spell ends at the beginning of your next turn.

Yep; it deals the full amount of its bludgeoning (or whatever) damage, much like a ghost touch weapon would work.

Firebug wrote:
Interestingly, if you Instant Weapon a Battle Poi you have a fire damage weapon that can strike incorporeal creatures. My Blistering Feint character has used that I think once.

Oh, that's brilliant. (Also, username checks out.)

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