What aspect of the Pathfinder universe do you dislike?


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Silver Crusade

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
In-setting Aroden's death coincided with the Eye of Abendego and The Worldwound forming, those are both major calamities.
We happen to know that the formation of the Worldwound was pure coincidence. Areelu Vorlesh was on her own timetable.

Yes but it still occurred when it did. Coincidences are very important to prophecies.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
In-setting Aroden's death coincided with the Eye of Abendego and The Worldwound forming, those are both major calamities.
We happen to know that the formation of the Worldwound was pure coincidence. Areelu Vorlesh was on her own timetable.

That's not entirely accurate. Aroden's death caused the cosmic instability that made the formation of the Worldwound possible. They are directly linked events, even if Aroden's death didn't actually open up the hole to the Abyss.

Silver Crusade

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I think the issue others are getting at is that it doesn't necessarily feel, at least in the APs, that prophecy getting "broken" was a big deal. Most of the impact we actually see was the formation of House Thrune's regime in Cheliax and the various nations that sharded off from it like Andoran and Sargava, which took place before the setting's initial "current year," and none of the APs really feature groups like the Harbingers of Fate or address the situation as part of its narrative.

I feel that, given the stronger emphasis on "Lost Omens" for the setting that's coming with the new Edition, that will change.


I dislike that the reasoning the gods rarely intervene directly on Golarion is never detailed out.

Not even to say, "It's a pact made directly between the gods alone and they're not sharing the details". Why can gods send their outsiders to do things, somehow that doesn't count? Nor do Clerics? It's really a point I'd like addressed in universe.

I know that outside of the setting the real reason is "So the PCs have something to do!" but I'd like there to be some sort of canonical reason that is explored beyond the assumed Mutually Assured Destruction of any deity that tries to do so.

Was Rovagug the first deity to attempt to do so in a major way and afterwards all the other deities agreed to stay out of direct actions and made a deal to collectively stop anyone who did?

Dark Archive

I mean, the reason why we don't see it in universe is that god vs god match would be reality warping vs reality warping, so could mortals even notice or comprehend it?

Also presumably, the times when gods did that was already eons in the past, so again not sure what would be the benefit of seeing god vs god warfare on golarion


I'm not say there is a benefit to showing it, but definitely it would be noticeable if it did happen. Gods aren't all powerful, they can't bend the material plane to their whim. So changes would be noticeable, in my opinion.

And I'm not implying I want to see god vs god action.

I want a canonical explanation of the metaphysics of why it doesn't happen.

Something like all the gods agreed after Rovagug that if someone attempted to directly intervene that the rest of the gods would destroy them.

I'm fine with (and prefer) the gods not directly intervene, but I just want a real in setting justification for it. Whatever is happens to be.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Claxon wrote:

I'm not say there is a benefit to showing it, but definitely it would be noticeable if it did happen. Gods aren't all powerful, they can't bend the material plane to their whim. So changes would be noticeable, in my opinion.

And I'm not implying I want to see god vs god action.

I want a canonical explanation of the metaphysics of why it doesn't happen.

Something like all the gods agreed after Rovagug that if someone attempted to directly intervene that the rest of the gods would destroy them.

I'm fine with (and prefer) the gods not directly intervene, but I just want a real in setting justification for it. Whatever is happens to be.

I suspect that one reason you won't see something like that is that it would conflict with some of the setting's own lore. Aroden ran around for years on Golarion, meddling left and right, and occasionally even personally beating up beings he thought might be direct threats to humanity.

Other deities, like Gozreh, literally live on the Material Plane (including Golarion itself) and any kind of binding pact would inevitably mean the other gods would be dictating what such deities are allowed to do in their own divine realms.

YMMV, but I personally think the best explanation isn't secret divine pacts and multidimensional treaties, it's that gods directly interfering can end very badly, very quickly. It's even within the realm of possibility that some number of deities believe that Aroden's own death had something to do with his habit of directly meddling in mortal affairs, so their own self-interest has contributing motivations beyond just the concerns of mutually-assured devastation.

Dark Archive

JJ's official statement was that gods don't have any kind of official agreement, its more of unofficial thing they avoid because if they directly interfered in other gods' affairs, it leads to divine arm race.("I create volcano!" "I erase your volcano!" "Screw you, I make super duber warrior of awesomeness!" "Well I make uber duper super mega warrior of ludicrousness!)"


CorvusMask wrote:
JJ's official statement was that gods don't have any kind of official agreement, its more of unofficial thing they avoid because if they directly interfered in other gods' affairs, it leads to divine arm race.("I create volcano!" "I erase your volcano!" "Screw you, I make super duber warrior of awesomeness!" "Well I make uber duper super mega warrior of ludicrousness!)"

I'm aware of that, I just don't find it wholly satisfying.


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I dislike Cthulhoids being implicitly more powerful than everyone else.

We have Angels, Azatas, Archons, Devils, Demons, Daemons, Fey, Divs, Genies, Agathions, Aeons, Inevitables, Munasaputras... All Outsider Races, some of which go very deep into the weird/abstract/unconceivable end... Yet somehow these are supposed to not elicit the primal fear and madness that Cthulhoids do. Aaaand we have the creative director stating that Outer Gods are terribly powerful creatures which are older than the oldest deity in the universe.

*sigh*

I just wish we left the Lovecraft-inspired stuff into Lovecraft-emulating stories and stopped sticking tentacly monsters of outer space maaaaaadneeeeeess and DOOOOOOM where they don't belong.

Silver Crusade

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I'd also like to add something that's been on my mind for months, possibly even years, and I've alluded to in other threads:

I've constantly felt like there's a metaplot undercurrent to Pathfinder's setting that I've missed out on because I never went to cons or participated in PFS Organized Play, which then gets referenced in the books I do have: How did the Pathfinders get the Hao Jin Tapestry?! Who are the Blakros family?! What's the Sky Key?! When did the Untouchable Opal get found?! Who killed Runelord Krune?!

So even if I read every Pathfinder book, Campaign Setting book, Player Companion book, Adventure Path book, and Module and Pathfinder Tales novel, and play the Pathfinder: Kingmaker PC there will STILL be information on the setting I've missed out on that are now barred to me. I found a recruitment for a play-by-post that combined the Mummy's Mask with several PFS modules, weaving them together in a way that looked like it would be fun, but I was not allowed to join because I didn't have a PFS character with the Scarab Sages faction, which I CAN'T make now since that faction no longer exists in PFS!

I feel like I've wasted my money and time and emotional labor by getting involved in Pathfinder as a campaign setting since I'll never have all the information so I can spiral my own stuff off of it, so there will always be the potential for someone playing with me to "Um, Actually..." and provide some information on the setting I didn't have that contradicts whatever I've come up with on my own, ruining everything, and I know that's irrational, but it still chews away at my brain and I don't know how to get rid of it!

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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
[...]I know that's irrational, but it still chews away at my brain and I don't know how to get rid of it!

All of our past scenarios are available for purchase (many of them in bundled seasons). You don't need to go out to a convention to play them, and you can run them for your home group with or without reporting them for organized play credit. Many GMs simply use them as one-offs to fill an evening or pick up some extra experience points. The events of specials almost always come up in later adventures, and the specials themselves typically become available to anyone who wants them once their exclusivity window has ended (though there's a bit of a cycle on that and I think the last special to become publicly available is from season 7).

If you've "gotta catch 'em all", the scenarios are out there for purchase. Essentially you've just been ignoring an entire product line, but fortunately the back-catalogue is always available for you to get caught up if you're so inclined.

Quote:
I found a recruitment for a play-by-post that combined the Mummy's Mask with several PFS modules, weaving them together in a way that looked like it would be fun, but I was not allowed to join because I didn't have a PFS character with the Scarab Sages faction, which I CAN'T make now since that faction no longer exists in PFS!

It sounds like a group established special parameters outside of the normal ones for organized play because they were looking to do a very particular kind of event. This isn't something that's part of normal organized play policy and isn't really representative of the program.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Michael Sayre wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
[...]I know that's irrational, but it still chews away at my brain and I don't know how to get rid of it!

All of our past scenarios are available for purchase (many of them in bundled seasons). You don't need to go out to a convention to play them, and you can run them for your home group with or without reporting them for organized play credit. Many GMs simply use them as one-offs to fill an evening or pick up some extra experience points. The events of specials almost always come up in later adventures, and the specials themselves typically become available to anyone who wants them once their exclusivity window has ended (though there's a bit of a cycle on that and I think the last special to become publicly available is from season 7).

If you've "gotta catch 'em all", the scenarios are out there for purchase. Essentially you've just been ignoring an entire product line, but fortunately the back-catalogue is always available for you to get caught up if you're so inclined.

But then that's only the first step: I'd have to play through ALL of those things to get the "base headcanon" established that I can then spin off to write my own campaigns set in Golarion, and besides that, the shift to the new edition basically means anything I've created now is irrelevant since things have "started over." I still feel like I've been left behind in terms of the setting and I'll never be able to catch up, since who wants to run or play PFS scenarios over 5 years old for no real credit just for my creative peace of mind, and how would I be able to run all that stuff before I die, since I'm already 30 years old, and all the play-by-posts I join keep dying!?

Dark Archive

PFS stuff aren't really important to stuff besides Pathfinder Society itself and Absalom, and the rare times they matter you get the gist in other books.

Also, you can't really "play the all scenarios to get your own personal canon" because some scenarios assume previous scenarios resolved in specific way. Like, some scenarios have "report box a, b, c or d based on how players did. If majority of global players do it in specific way, that is canon" meaning the canon for later scenarios has already been set.

Heck, some scenarios are rather railroaded. Lot of scenarios allow for "pcs failed this scenario" reporting, but others, like Runelord Krune's scenario, assume that if you fail, second party pathfinder society sends succeeds.

If you are really obsessed with having ALL information, it would be better for you to just read them all and ignore wanting to play them, because otherwise you'd need to homebrew a lot unless players happen to pick exact same canon majority of players did.

(Scenarios are bit broad strokes canon anyway in that most of stuff in them never get referred to in APs despite the "revelations about ancient culture's ways" and whatever :p Seriously, lot of people don't really care about PFS canon, and in some season, the scenarios don't really have major impact on anything)

(like, you don't have much choices there. Either you 1) ignore the feeling or at least be satisfied with not playing them personally 2) play all scenarios as much as you can 3) switch to completely different campaign setting for peace of mind. Its not good to keep stressing about it, ye would better decide what to do about it)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
[...]I know that's irrational, but it still chews away at my brain and I don't know how to get rid of it!

All of our past scenarios are available for purchase (many of them in bundled seasons). You don't need to go out to a convention to play them, and you can run them for your home group with or without reporting them for organized play credit. Many GMs simply use them as one-offs to fill an evening or pick up some extra experience points. The events of specials almost always come up in later adventures, and the specials themselves typically become available to anyone who wants them once their exclusivity window has ended (though there's a bit of a cycle on that and I think the last special to become publicly available is from season 7).

If you've "gotta catch 'em all", the scenarios are out there for purchase. Essentially you've just been ignoring an entire product line, but fortunately the back-catalogue is always available for you to get caught up if you're so inclined.

But then that's only the first step: I'd have to play through ALL of those things to get the "base headcanon" established that I can then spin off to write my own campaigns set in Golarion, and besides that, the shift to the new edition basically means anything I've created now is irrelevant since things have "started over." I still feel like I've been left behind in terms of the setting and I'll never be able to catch up, since who wants to run or play PFS scenarios over 5 years old for no real credit just for my creative peace of mind, and how would I be able to run all that stuff before I die, since I'm already 30 years old, and all the play-by-posts I join keep dying!?

I think the only solution for you is to let go of your notion of having to know *everything* about the setting and running games so that they *100%* conform with established canon. The problem is in your head, not with Paizo.

And I'm sorry, but you will die some day and you'll never play all Pathfinder APs/modules/scenarios. Your soul will slide into a cold, bleak nothingness of annihilation and James Jacobs won't be there to tell you "you did good, you lived a good life". That's one other thing you need to make peace with.


Couple of things for me:

The cosmology is one of those things that basically can only be viewed at a glance lest you dig in and find out it barely makes any sense due to having 10+ years of baggage being added onto an already rickety framework to begin with.

The other thing is that Golarion's just a place that never clicked into an actual place for me and is basically stuck in the purgatory of fantasy disney world (aka a bunch of unconnected themed attractions). Can't exactly explain why really since I buy in to Star Wars just fine. Might be some of the attractions (like Alkensor and Nidal) are just bridges too far/too tight a gimmick and break the illusion.


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Something I'm surprised no one mentioned: I don't like how Nocticula turned out to be a fallen empyreal lord as it's pretty obvious the only reason why they did this is because she's pretty (where as most of the other demon lords are hideous monsters). Indeed, I'm not really a fan of the whole "beauty equals goodness" trope in general.


Hey, Asmodeus is supposed to be quite the handsome devil you know (Although he's also a fallen empyreal lord...)


Yqatuba wrote:
Something I'm surprised no one mentioned: I don't like how Nocticula turned out to be a fallen empyreal lord as it's pretty obvious the only reason why they did this is because she's pretty (where as most of the other demon lords are hideous monsters). Indeed, I'm not really a fan of the whole "beauty equals goodness" trope in general.

Her being a fallen empyreal lord was just a theory if i remember correctley. She changed because something extraordinary happened and it is not like she is suddenly a force of good^^


What I'm hearing is that turning evil has a lot of job opportunities for promotion, going from Empyreal Lord to full God.

Silver Crusade

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lowfyr01 wrote:
Yqatuba wrote:
Something I'm surprised no one mentioned: I don't like how Nocticula turned out to be a fallen empyreal lord as it's pretty obvious the only reason why they did this is because she's pretty (where as most of the other demon lords are hideous monsters). Indeed, I'm not really a fan of the whole "beauty equals goodness" trope in general.
Her being a fallen empyreal lord was just a theory if i remember correctley. She changed because something extraordinary happened and it is not like she is suddenly a force of good^^

Yeah, i don't think Empyreal Lord was a thing at all, just a rumor from way back. Also she’s CN, not CG.


Ok guess I was wrong. It's still pretty obvious she's the one they picked because she's pretty. It's hard to see, say, Jubilex turning non-evil

Silver Crusade

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Gorbacz wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
[...]I know that's irrational, but it still chews away at my brain and I don't know how to get rid of it!

All of our past scenarios are available for purchase (many of them in bundled seasons). You don't need to go out to a convention to play them, and you can run them for your home group with or without reporting them for organized play credit. Many GMs simply use them as one-offs to fill an evening or pick up some extra experience points. The events of specials almost always come up in later adventures, and the specials themselves typically become available to anyone who wants them once their exclusivity window has ended (though there's a bit of a cycle on that and I think the last special to become publicly available is from season 7).

If you've "gotta catch 'em all", the scenarios are out there for purchase. Essentially you've just been ignoring an entire product line, but fortunately the back-catalogue is always available for you to get caught up if you're so inclined.

But then that's only the first step: I'd have to play through ALL of those things to get the "base headcanon" established that I can then spin off to write my own campaigns set in Golarion, and besides that, the shift to the new edition basically means anything I've created now is irrelevant since things have "started over." I still feel like I've been left behind in terms of the setting and I'll never be able to catch up, since who wants to run or play PFS scenarios over 5 years old for no real credit just for my creative peace of mind, and how would I be able to run all that stuff before I die, since I'm already 30 years old, and all the play-by-posts I join keep dying!?

I think the only solution for you is to let go of your notion of having to know *everything* about the setting and running games so that they *100%* conform with established canon. The problem is in your head, not with Paizo.

And I'm sorry, but you...

And then what happens when a book comes out that contradicts whatever I've done? That means I won't be able to use whatever comes AFTER the contradiction, meaning I'm now cut off from all possibilities for a better story, since I'm a terrible writer and am desperately clinging on to the framework Paizo's provided so my stuff is at least "okay."

Dark Archive

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That will happen even if you run every single Paizo adventure.

Heck, that WILL happen if you play every single PFS scenario for reasons I stated earlier.

Like I said, if you don't just switch to a setting that doesn't get new material written for it, then you need to come in terms with it. If you WANT to read every single Pathfinder material, feel free to do so, but understand that it is impossible to run any published setting and have it be 100% compatible to default canon.

Also, seriously, most of PFS scenarios aren't that important, they are meant single four hour sessions, so they come with less freedom than normal adventures. Vast majority of them don't really have effect on larger world. And some of the scenarios are contradicted by newer material.

I can't really give more advice about what you should do about your anxiety and cause of it since I'm not professional on this matter.


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Yeah, even casually running APs my group has found certain things contradict one another, despite the time span in between the game where we realize there is a contradiction can be quite long.

We just treat it as "This are all basically the same universe, but not necessarily exactly the same. Don't worry about it, it's just a game".

I mean in my groups cannon when we did Hell's Vengeance we destroyed the Glorious Reclamation completely, after the events of the AP and went on to set our sights on Andoran, and Molthune. I mean you end that campaign at high level, as you do most APs. If the events of those campaigns all tried to be apart of the same cannon you would have high level people running around. And at least some would be like my group from Hell's Vengeance and would want to conquer as much of the world as they could, and being high level have a reasonable chance of doing so.

Continuity can only work so well between different adventures.

Dark Archive

I can confirm for example that vast majority of adventures don't know that gremlins apparently breed by pustules <_<

Also some of older information gets retconned. Like male dryads exists nowadays, but fay revisited states directly that dryads are always female.

Dark Archive

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CorvusMask wrote:
I can confirm for example that vast majority of adventures don't know that gremlins apparently breed by pustules <_<

I have no idea if that's true or a joke, but now I want to make a version that 'breed' by infecting a larger humanoid, such as a human, elf or ogre, with their bite, and, a month later, the 'pimple' that results swells to the size of a grapefruit and a squirming gremlin squeezes forth in a shower of amniotic pus.

As an added bit of nasty, the newly fledged gremlin bears some vague distorted resemblance to it's unwilling 'parent.'

Dark Archive

I used incorrect term, the accurate term was "budding". Basically they breed asexually where a gross tumors grows on them and them falls off becoming new gremlin. But yes, I wasn't joking

Its clearly something most APs featuring gremlins don't acknowledge, I'm pretty sure I've seen lot of stuff that contradict gremlins reproducing asexually


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Varisian culture. It’s basically a bunch of romani stereotypes; fortune telling, criminal activity (thanks Sczarni!), hell, even their aesthetic reeks of offensive imitation.


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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
[...]I know that's irrational, but it still chews away at my brain and I don't know how to get rid of it!

All of our past scenarios are available for purchase (many of them in bundled seasons). You don't need to go out to a convention to play them, and you can run them for your home group with or without reporting them for organized play credit. Many GMs simply use them as one-offs to fill an evening or pick up some extra experience points. The events of specials almost always come up in later adventures, and the specials themselves typically become available to anyone who wants them once their exclusivity window has ended (though there's a bit of a cycle on that and I think the last special to become publicly available is from season 7).

If you've "gotta catch 'em all", the scenarios are out there for purchase. Essentially you've just been ignoring an entire product line, but fortunately the back-catalogue is always available for you to get caught up if you're so inclined.

But then that's only the first step: I'd have to play through ALL of those things to get the "base headcanon" established that I can then spin off to write my own campaigns set in Golarion, and besides that, the shift to the new edition basically means anything I've created now is irrelevant since things have "started over." I still feel like I've been left behind in terms of the setting and I'll never be able to catch up, since who wants to run or play PFS scenarios over 5 years old for no real credit just for my creative peace of mind, and how would I be able to run all that stuff before I die, since I'm already 30 years old, and all the play-by-posts I join keep dying!?
I think the only solution for you is to let go of your notion of having to know *everything* about the setting and running games so that they *100%* conform with established canon. The problem is in your head, not with Paizo.
And then what happens when a book comes out that contradicts whatever I've done? That means I won't be able to use whatever comes AFTER the contradiction, meaning I'm now cut off from all possibilities for a better story, since I'm a terrible writer and am desperately clinging on to the framework Paizo's provided so my stuff is at least "okay."

I feel your pain. I can't catch up with even half the news on Earth, let alone that on Golarion, even if I were to subscribe to all the major newspapers . . . .

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
UnArcaneElection wrote:
I feel your pain. I can't catch up with even half the news on Earth, let alone that on Golarion, even if I were to subscribe to all the major newspapers . . . .

I just miss when the APs could kind of be considered standalone and if there were connections to other ones they were more like fun little Easter eggs, rather than how the PCs handled one AP directly creating the status quo of one later, which started with Jade Regent. That made it feel like I had to play the first AP before playing the next, rather than things just kind of going on "simultaneously" in the setting like the first three Varisian APs, which means you can't just "dive in" anymore...and then PFS scenarios and novels start getting in on the action and I just feel...left behind. Like I couldn't keep up with Golarion and it's moving on without me.

That's why I'm more scared than excited for the impending edition change. I feel like everyone's going to move on to that new status quo and no one will want to do the old stuff anymore because it's old and clunky and everyone's already played it and got their own headcanons, while I barely got a chance to start one. To say nothing of the fact that if I wanted to try and "Marvel Cinematic Universe" 1e Pathfinder, I'd probably have to GM, and that means I can't use all the cool PC ideas I've tailor-made for APs that have either started in play-by-posts that have died or are specifically designed for APs that nobody likes like Council of Thieves. It just makes me feel really anxious and exhausted at the same time, to the point where thinking about Golarion (and frankly TTRPGs in general) doesn't "spark joy" the same way it used to, to borrow Marie Kondo's catchphrase.


So I know very little about Jade Regent, what am I missing for having neither read nor played it that couldn't be summed up in a paragraph in a world guide?

Like I have played Carrion Crown and Strange Aeons and I'm pretty sure the reasons to play those are "they are fun" and not "to make sense of Tyrant's Grasp."

Silver Crusade

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

So I know very little about Jade Regent, what am I missing for having neither read nor played it that couldn't be summed up in a paragraph in a world guide?

Like I have played Carrion Crown and Strange Aeons and I'm pretty sure the reasons to play those are "they are fun" and not "to make sense of Tyrant's Grasp."

That it's dependent on Ameiko Kaijitsu surviving the events of Rise of the Runelords, which isn't a given. And you also have to have experienced that, Curse of the Crimson Throne and Second Darkness to get the full context for Shattered Star, and then Return of the Runelords actively encourages you to have former PC's from those campaigns put on cameo appearances, unless you want to use the generic iconics.

And imagine how cool it would be in Tyrant's Grasp if your Carrion Crown or Strange Aeons PC made a similar cameo?!


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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
I feel your pain. I can't catch up with even half the news on Earth, let alone that on Golarion, even if I were to subscribe to all the major newspapers . . . .

I just miss when the APs could kind of be considered standalone and if there were connections to other ones they were more like fun little Easter eggs, rather than how the PCs handled one AP directly creating the status quo of one later, which started with Jade Regent. That made it feel like I had to play the first AP before playing the next, rather than things just kind of going on "simultaneously" in the setting like the first three Varisian APs, which means you can't just "dive in" anymore...and then PFS scenarios and novels start getting in on the action and I just feel...left behind. Like I couldn't keep up with Golarion and it's moving on without me.

That's why I'm more scared than excited for the impending edition change. I feel like everyone's going to move on to that new status quo and no one will want to do the old stuff anymore because it's old and clunky and everyone's already played it and got their own headcanons, while I barely got a chance to start one. To say nothing of the fact that if I wanted to try and "Marvel Cinematic Universe" 1e Pathfinder, I'd probably have to GM, and that means I can't use all the cool PC ideas I've tailor-made for APs that have either started in play-by-posts that have died or are specifically designed for APs that nobody likes like Council of Thieves. It just makes me feel really anxious and exhausted at the same time, to the point where thinking about Golarion (and frankly TTRPGs in general) doesn't "spark joy" the same way it used to, to borrow Marie Kondo's catchphrase.

I totally sympathise. My solution was to get rid of all my PF1 stuff and force myself to start afresh. I’m more a reader than a player at this stage of life anyhow, so I’m not really losing much in the way of actual play. I’ve read the ones I wanted (and kept a handful I might want to read again) now I’m treating it as a reboot. I figure a year will be enough to test for me - either I’ll really get into Golarion again or I’ll find myself just putting the books on the shelf and will need to rethink everything.

Ultimately, I think what you’re identifying is just a fact of life. There’s always going to be a perfect pace of expansion for you and a perfect number of product lines. It’s pretty unlikely that any gaming company is going to get it spot on for you. (By contrast, I really like the new adventures coming out of WotC for 5E but the glacial release pace keeps me from really getting invested - kind of the opposite to where I find myself with Paizo).

That’s not terribly helpful, perhaps. But I do feel your pain (and share it!)


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Norgorber. To me he's the least interesting of the three ascended divinities, with a name that I struggle to take seriously and a broad portfolio of 'aspects' that are individually interesting but which draw away from and diminish Norgorber himself. There are interesting cosmological implications to the setting not having a dedicated god of secrets and thievery until Norgorber's apotheosis, and those implications don't seem to be addressed and instead he ends up feeling like a patch slapped hastily over a hole in the pantheon to address the glaring lack of portfolio aspects x, y, and z.


^Just think of the name the way Goblins would think of it -- Nobooger.

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
^Just think of the name the way Goblins would think of it -- Nobooger.

Yeah, there's always going to be that with made-up fantasy names. It either sounds great in your head, and then some chucklehead mispronounces it once at the table and it's a running joke for the rest of the campaign.

Norgie definitely has it rough, with a name that calls to mind goobers and noogies and other juvenile nonsense words. Saranrae as 'saranwrap' also sounds frustrating for the GM who wants her to be taken seriously as a setting element, and whose players are too busy chortling at their own distortion of her name.

The shorter deity names, like Nethys and Gorum, 'feel' better for me. (Gorum hits that sweet spot of evoking Crom, but being different enough to not sound like it's being obvious about it.)

It's funny how dragons have these longarse complicated names, like Kivarthexius or whatever, and their gods have names like Apsu and Dahak. Their gods are like, 'dudes, you all are trying *way* too hard...' :)


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TheOrganGrinder wrote:
Norgorber. To me he's the least interesting of the three ascended divinities, with a name that I struggle to take seriously and a broad portfolio of 'aspects' that are individually interesting but which draw away from and diminish Norgorber himself. There are interesting cosmological implications to the setting not having a dedicated god of secrets and thievery until Norgorber's apotheosis, and those implications don't seem to be addressed and instead he ends up feeling like a patch slapped hastily over a hole in the pantheon to address the glaring lack of portfolio aspects x, y, and z.

A friend of mine always calls him Nerdburger.


I'm not a big fan of Golarion having elves as a race in decline, giant swaths of mustache-twirling diabolic kingdoms, or how non-humans play second fiddle to humans.

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Aldarc wrote:
I'm not a big fan of Golarion having elves as a race in decline

This isn't actually a thing. Elvendom is thriving in Garund and under the seas. The group in decline are the hyper-Aryans who abandoned the world for their own gated-community refuge, and good riddance to them.


^Well, good riddance from Golarion itself, but it sounds like in Starfinder time, they are doing all too well on other worlds. And in Pathfinder time, a derived hyper-Aryan race is doing well enough to cause problems for neighboring countries and beyond.

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UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Well, good riddance from Golarion itself, but it sounds like in Starfinder time, they are doing all too well on other worlds. And in Pathfinder time, a derived hyper-Aryan race is doing well enough to cause problems for neighboring countries and beyond.

(You do realize I was referring to the elves of Kyonin, right?)


zimmerwald1915 wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Well, good riddance from Golarion itself, but it sounds like in Starfinder time, they are doing all too well on other worlds. And in Pathfinder time, a derived hyper-Aryan race is doing well enough to cause problems for neighboring countries and beyond.

(You do realize I was referring to the elves of Kyonin, right?)

(You do realise that elves of Golarion - even those from Kyonin - are not humans, let alone "hyper-Aryans", right?)


I dislike Rahadoum for a variety of reasons. I find the trend of protagonists whose worldview is "religion is stupid, Gods are bad, every priest is a charlatan, we're better off without it all, look how enlightened I am" that has inundated modern entertainment boringly repetitive. That there is an entire country dedicated to this concept in Golarion just rubs me the wrong way. I also find players who make adamantly sacrilegious characters for the sole purpose of trolling the Cleric/Paladin annoying, and saying their character is Rahadoumi gives them a "just playing my character" shield to hide behind. I am biased because I absolutely love Divine magic and classes that cast it, and will openly admit that, but Rahadoum seems to me like nothing but a scrap tossed to the type of cliche "edgy" teenagers who like to scrawl Nietzsche's most famous quote on bathroom walls. Rahadoum could work in a setting where religion and Gods are left up to faith, but in Golarion it sticks out like a sore thumb, and one that would be better off amputated at that.

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MidsouthGuy wrote:
I dislike Rahadoum for a variety of reasons. I find the trend of protagonists whose worldview is "religion is stupid, Gods are bad, every priest is a charlatan, we're better off without it all, look how enlightened I am" that has inundated modern entertainment boringly repetitive. That there is an entire country dedicated to this concept in Golarion just rubs me the wrong way. I also find players who make adamantly sacrilegious characters for the sole purpose of trolling the Cleric/Paladin annoying, and saying their character is Rahadoumi gives them a "just playing my character" shield to hide behind. I am biased because I absolutely love Divine magic and classes that cast it, and will openly admit that, but Rahadoum seems to me like nothing but a scrap tossed to the type of cliche "edgy" teenagers who like to scrawl Nietzsche's most famous quote on bathroom walls. Rahadoum could work in a setting where religion and Gods are left up to faith, but in Golarion it sticks out like a sore thumb, and one that would be better off amputated at that.

I think Rahadoum works better when you think them less as atheists and more as some form of anti-authoritarians(I'm not knowledgeable enough about political science to know specific type fitting for them, I mean they definitely aren't anarchists at least :P). They don't want to give ownership of their souls to a ruler with divine mandate. By their belief, just because you are more powerful than them, you don't have right to rule over them.


Psiphyre wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Well, good riddance from Golarion itself, but it sounds like in Starfinder time, they are doing all too well on other worlds. And in Pathfinder time, a derived hyper-Aryan race is doing well enough to cause problems for neighboring countries and beyond.

(You do realize I was referring to the elves of Kyonin, right?)
(You do realise that elves of Golarion - even those from Kyonin - are not humans, let alone "hyper-Aryans", right?)

I would have started to think of Elves of Kyonin, but then you said "group in decline", and since the Elves Uber Alles types seem to have just suffered a setback rather than being in decline, I looked for who was most GONE from Golarion, and Azlanti sound Aryan, so . . . there you go.

CorvusMask wrote:
MidsouthGuy wrote:
I dislike Rahadoum for a variety of reasons. I find the trend of protagonists whose worldview is "religion is stupid, Gods are bad, every priest is a charlatan, we're better off without it all, look how enlightened I am" that has inundated modern entertainment boringly repetitive. That there is an entire country dedicated to this concept in Golarion just rubs me the wrong way. {. . .}
I think Rahadoum works better when you think them less as atheists and more as some form of anti-authoritarians(I'm not knowledgeable enough about political science to know specific type fitting for them, I mean they definitely aren't anarchists at least :P). They don't want to give ownership of their souls to a ruler with divine mandate. By their belief, just because you are more powerful than them, you don't have right to rule over them.

On the other hand, Rahadoum seems to be quite authoritarian itself -- even if you accept the ways of the Pure Legion as being necessary, Rahadoum practices slavery. I have no objection to having this in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, but I sure wouldn't describe Rahadoum as a nation of protagonists.

That said, the Rahadoumi character I have in mind would be an exile(*), not somebody trying to force Rahadoumi policy onto the rest of the world. Why would somebody like that venture out of Rahadoum anyway, unless they were some kind of secret agent (in which case they probably wouldn't want to compromise their position by trolling Paladins and Clerics)?

(*)If you want the details:

Rahadoumi character concept:
He is a Sylph Oracle by way of template acquired very shortly after birth as a Human, due to a well-meaning but horribly bungled blessing from his parents thinking they were more sophisticated than they actually were. So they unknowingly mangled the ancient Varisian mariner's blessing "May the wind always be at your back" into "May the wind always come from your backside" . . . .

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Rahadoumi's government does definitely have hypocritical aspects to it :p Its pretty good example of antagonistic LN government.

Anyhoo, speaking of Kyonin, weird thing about them is that isn't the only ap featuring them officially partially non canon? Meaning its kinda hard to tell what Kyonin is supposed to be like


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Rahadoum is misotheist, not atheist (hatred of deities, not belief in no deities)

The leaders of Rahadoum are your typical authoritarians. They have no problem with authoritarianism, as long as they are the authority.


^ Hmm...

Checks out!

:D


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TheOrganGrinder wrote:
Norgorber. To me he's the least interesting of the three ascended divinities, with a name that I struggle to take seriously and a broad portfolio of 'aspects' that are individually interesting but which draw away from and diminish Norgorber himself. There are interesting cosmological implications to the setting not having a dedicated god of secrets and thievery until Norgorber's apotheosis, and those implications don't seem to be addressed and instead he ends up feeling like a patch slapped hastily over a hole in the pantheon to address the glaring lack of portfolio aspects x, y, and z.

admittedly, my biggest complaint is the 'Forgotten Realms' style pantheons, but whatevs.

In any event, Norgorber might be best seen, and I think it was Mona who posted this years ago, as the god representing the darker impulses of humanity. ruthless greed, willful ignorance, anger, hate, etc.

Which is fun when you have the other living god of humanity being Iomedae, who is the exact opposite.

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