Players should feel free to access the Core Rulebook and other rules relevant to their PC. Other materials, including Bestiaries, the adventure itself, or (depending on the GM) general setting information should stay off-limits. In addition, players should try not to use their own knowledge as a substitute for what their characters would know (through identifying a monster with the relevant skill, etc.).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As a player- stay out of the Bestiary and the Adventure Path (or module) if you're using one. All the player companions, campaign setting, and RPG line books which are not bestiaries are fair game IMO.
If nothing else, staying out of the bestiary is good form because arguing "you aren't running this monster correctly" (when the GM might have just changed something about it) is potentially a major faux pas.
Hi, I'm a new pathfinder player. This is an etiquette question.
There are many rulebooks and many web resources available with information about pathfinder things, such as spells, tips, rule interpretations, monster information,...
The "core" rulebook is clearly designed for all players to read. But should players access Bestiary books or forums during gameplay? Is this an area where GMs have different opinions (the GM is always right, of course, and they spend so much time on the game they area completely entitled to have rules, but I wonder if there is a consensus).
I think the technical opinion is 'It depends on the player'? Myself, I do not like it when players know much more than their characters should. and if they DO know something... they need to keep it bottled up and rely on what their character knows. There are rules for what a character knows and they're based on skill checks. Ideally the players have no business in the bestiary books.
That's in a perfect world. Reality is, that undead and monsters that your character has never before encountered... are the same ones that you ran into with DIFFERENT characters in the last three campaigns. In time every player everywhere will know about silver weapons for werewolves and wooden stakes for vampires or fire for trolls... it's just common knowledge. A good player still feigns ignorance if the CHARACTER can't figure it out... but sometimes outside knowledge can't be helped.
Now world building stuff? I'm all for players reading up on the towns and gods and kings and stuff if it helps builds a better character and enhances the game play... but don't go spouting off about the secret conspiracies and hidden tunnels in the castle... that's just plain wrong. Most of these books are pretty clear with what should be open to players and what are GM tools.
Still... it depends on the players.
I have a Microsoft Surface that I keep on while we play, and any time there's any question with rules or spell descriptions, I look it up. Our PC's do the same thing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd like to note that accessing the bestiary is really only poor form IN GAME. If you, as a player, wanna look up information on devils and stuff on your own time go ahead. Just don't pull up the monster during combat and start reading off its abilities for the group. For one, its rude, for another the GM has the right to alter things however they see fit.
"Don't worry, it only has 3 lightning bolts a day" is the surest fire way to get hit with a 4th lightning bolt.
If you are going to read the Bestiaries when not playing, make sure to remind yourself over and over again "this represents an average one of these" since a lot of GMs see red when someone mentions stuff like "well, this thing doesn't have any way to attack me if I'm flying".
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd like to note that accessing the bestiary is really only poor form IN GAME. If you, as a player, wanna look up information on devils and stuff on your own time go ahead. Just don't pull up the monster during combat and start reading off its abilities for the group. For one, its rude, for another the GM has the right to alter things however they see fit.
"Don't worry, it only has 3 lightning bolts a day" is the surest fire way to get hit with a 4th lightning bolt.
Absolutely. I have had to deal with PC's doing this and I nipped it in the bud real quick. That's actual cheating imo-- looking up the monster you're fighting while the combat is going on, I mean.
My group regularly uses internet resources to look up rules, spells, character abilities, etc as needed.
Basically the only thing that's off limits is the AP books themselves. We also have the expectation that you don't look up the monsters that we're fighting in the book while we're fighting them, but since you can summon monster with spells you still need to be able to look at bestiaries occasionally.
As a player- stay out of the Bestiary and the Adventure Path (or module) if you're using one. All the player companions, campaign setting, and RPG line books which are not bestiaries are fair game IMO.
If nothing else, staying out of the bestiary is good form because arguing "you aren't running this monster correctly" (when the GM might have just changed something about it) is potentially a major faux pas.
Like above, I agree with you except for when using summon monster. At a certain point, you have to have trust in your players not to cheat.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
I agree with most of this, with the addition that it's okay to have some access to the Bestiary if you're using summons. PC summoners need to be responsible for the stats of their summons.
Personally, I won't even look up spells in the CRB that aren't my character's unless I've made a Spellcraft check to ID them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the information is about your character or something you character directly controls the player should be able to look it up. If on the other hand the information is about your opponents or something outside your control they should not be looking it up. Which book the information is in is not important. Looking up the class abilities of a NPC is no different than looking up the stats of a monster you are fighting. Likewise looking up the abilities of a creature you summoned is no different than looking up your own class abilities.
If the character has a knowledge skill that covers the information they are interested in then I cut them some slack and allow more leeway. This also encourages players to put points into knowledge skills.
In time every player everywhere will know about silver weapons for werewolves and wooden stakes for vampires or fire for trolls... it's just common knowledge. A good player still feigns ignorance if the CHARACTER can't figure it out... but sometimes outside knowledge can't be helped.
If it's common knowledge, it should be common knowledge in-universe, too. If you are an adventurer in a world where lycanthropes, trolls, fey, various undead, etc. exist, not knowing the basic strengths/weaknesses means your character is unfit for the job. Such things are setting dependent, of course - my current campaign is set in medieval scotland, and the PCs had no reason to believe that the trolls they were fighting had regeneration as that's not based on european myths (FIY, they didn't). A golarion based character with a positive int modifier should know that, unless they come from a region where trolls aren't found.
There is not one answer for all games.
It is mostly up to the GM as they are running the campaign.
In practice experienced players will know generally what monsters can do and the better strategies against them.
A couple of things that are always really poor form are looking at other players character sheets and the like if they do not choose to share them and reading ahead about the adventure path you are on. If someone knows the adventure path because they have played in it or GMed it before they should refrain from spoiling things for the others.
There are two times when it is okay to consult a bestiary:
1) If you need data for a creature that you are summoning or polymorphing into, or
2) With GM permission, you got a really good roll on a relevant Knowledge check and the GM decides that it is good enough to just let you read the whole entry.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The correct answer is to talk about this with your group and decide together what would be the most fun for everyone.
In a situation like PFS, only access things strictly related to your character.
I would say Rules for PCs only, and really only for things that the Player has a question on for their PC. For instance, most people agree that you can and should have the CRB at the table to look up rules during play. BUT you should not use it to say... look up the spell that the Boss Monster just cast to see what it's duration is, or if any spells dispel it etc. THAT is cheating.
I would agree having a bestiary unless you are summoning a monster is highly discouraged (really you should have it typed out or written on a note card).
I would go even so far as to say that Player Companions or Campaign Setting books are off limits, since that type of setting knowledge should be doled out by the GM, pursuant to plot needs or PC skill checks. For instance, it is well known among players (or at least those on the forums) that Razmir is a fraud. HOWEVER that is NOT well known in setting, so that type of info shouldn't be accessed by a player during play. Another example is a player looking up the description of a known dungeon location to see what kind of monsters are there. If the GM doesn't tell you IC, you shouldn't look it up because you are now crossing the line from PC knowledge to Player knowledge (big no-no).
I would suggest that you print out a description of you feats or spells, particularly one that aren't in the CRB, for easy access during play. There is nothing more annoying than needing to thumb through 10 hardcovers or a few dozen softcovers at the table looking for the specific description of an item or spell in the middle of a combat b/c someone at the table claimed you were running it wrong.
In general:
1. Don't read the AP/module/adventure you're playing. If you use it to know what's coming, that's poor form, and even if you're good at separating in-character knowledge from player knowledge, it'll probably make it less fun for you since nothing will be a surprise.
2. Looking up things related to your character is fine, looking up things related to other people's characters should be done only if someone asks you to, and looking up things about stuff the GM is running should be done only with GM permission. Experienced players and players who also GM are probably going to be familiar with a lot of the monsters, and it's their responsibility to avoid accidentally meta-gaming.
3. I feel like setting material is 50-50, since it makes sense for a character living in a world to know things about the region where they live that the player might not know before they begin the campaign. So I actually like my players to be familiar with the portions of the setting that their character would be familiar with. However, if they come across something that isn't public knowledge (or something their character would know), they shouldn't bring it up. If the people I've run for weren't as good at not metagaming as they are, I'd probably make setting handouts or something, but I've never had a problem.
If a player seems to be acting on metagame info, ask them how their character knows that and see what they say. Maybe they do have a good answer ("we fought skeletons last week and I remember my rapier didn't work well but the hammer did") or maybe they'll come up with something that's clearly a stretch or admit it's metagame info and correct themselves.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In time every player everywhere will know about silver weapons for werewolves and wooden stakes for vampires or fire for trolls... it's just common knowledge. A good player still feigns ignorance if the CHARACTER can't figure it out... but sometimes outside knowledge can't be helped.If it's common knowledge, it should be common knowledge in-universe, too. If you are an adventurer in a world where lycanthropes, trolls, fey, various undead, etc. exist, not knowing the basic strengths/weaknesses means your character is unfit for the job. Such things are setting dependent, of course - my current campaign is set in medieval scotland, and the PCs had no reason to believe that the trolls they were fighting had regeneration as that's not based on european myths (FIY, they didn't). A golarion based character with a positive int modifier should know that, unless they come from a region where trolls aren't found.
I'm pretty sure that's what the DC 10 is for. Common knowledge that anyone can get whether they're trained in a knowledge or not.
But level one adventures straight off the farm... may listen to the occasional tavern tale, but there's no guarantee that those tales weren't embellished or just plain wrong.