Why are Mk 2 and Mk 2 Null Space chamber / Sacks of holding a thing?


General Discussion


Besides using an unhealthy amount of Crisco on the edge of the bag and sliding your dragonkin soldier inside, whats the advantage to having one larger bag as opposed to 2 smaller ones?

Null-space chamber, MK II 3,050 25 bulk

Null-space chamber, MK II 12,250 vs. 2 Mk 1s is 6,100 for 50 bulk

Null space chambe MK III 50,000 vs. 4 mk Is is 12,200 for 100 bulk

Null space chamber MK IV 250,000 vs. 8 mk 1 bags is 250,000 for 200 bulk

Is it just a really expensive Space Gucci bag? Or is the opening bigger on the bigger ones?


One line.

Wearing Hybrid Items wrote:
You can wear only up to two total hybrid or magic items at a time for them to both function normally. Like for magic items, you cannot wear more than one of the same type of hybrid item except for rings.

According to the first line of the Null-Space Chamber "A null-space chamber is a circular device often designed to be strapped to an arm or backpack."

The devs likely consider the Null-Space Chamber as worn, and thus counting against your 2 magic items, as well as being more than one of the same type. This would explain the exponential price increase to get more out of your single slot. Same as Aeon Stones and things like the Ferocity Blazon I got for my Envoy despite not being slotted still count against the 2 magic limit.


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Its unclear if it needs to be worn to function. I think its fairly clear everything doesn't spill out if you take it off, so even if you can only use one bag at a time in terms of access, you clearly can carry multiple on you, which is like 99% of the functionality of the item.

My guess is the volume consideration. A 3 foot cube might have issues holding a 6 foot long tactical pike for example. Similarly, a 3 foot by 3 foot by 3 foot cube is 27 cubic feet. A 6 foot by 6 foot by 6 foot cube is a 216 cubic feet (and fits a medium creature). And so on.

A GM is well within his rights from saying you can't put a medium sized power armor in a MK 1 null-space chamber, but a MK 4 potentially could hold a huge flight frame, depending the exact dimensions. Certainly a large armor is guaranteed to fit in a MK 4.

Given it doesn't say one way or the other, if I were GMing I'd probably rule the bigger chambers have bigger openings, just so you can efficiently get stuff into that 1,728 cubic foot MK 4 null space chamber.

If your GM is the type to say you can't wear a walking tank with the equivalent of multiple cannons attached around town without attracting the wrong kind of attention, the higher null-space chambers could be handy for power armor storage. Full round to get it out, full round to get in isn't terrible to go from unarmored to military mecha.

Sovereign Court

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Because Paizo habitually uses faster-than-linear price scaling even when not really appropriate. Classic example: the pricing on wands of higher level healing spells.


There's no way a Null Space Chamber has to be worn to function just because it has a convenient strap attached to it. Worn items without exception(?) grant an ability to the wearer. This is an independent item that doesn't require anything of or grant anything to the person carrying it or who used the convenient carrying strap.


Xenocrat wrote:
Worn items without exception(?) grant an ability to the wearer.

The Null Space Chamber does offer an ability. 2 in fact.

A) It increases the amount of bulk a character can carry by X bulk depending on level.

B) A character can draw any item from it and have it automatically in hand as a full action.

So it's more akin to a Handy Haversack than it is a Bag of Holding. That said, as far as I can tell drawing items normally from a regular pack and having it in hand is two move actions (one to Manipulate an Item, the second to Draw or Sheath if it is a weapon of any sort). However as a magic item you need to activate the Null-Space Chamber:

Null Space Chamber wrote:
When you press a button on the side, the device creates a circular extradimensional rift to a pocket space, the size of which is determined by the null-space chamber’s model. You can close it by pressing the button again, causing the entrance to the space to disappear.

Without specific other wording, activating a magic or hybrid item is a Standard Action. So without the Full Action ability, it would be equivalent to 3 actions (Standard to activate, Move to manipulate and fish out, Move to draw if it's a weapon) to get anything from Null-Space Chamber.


If it functions when not worn it’s not a Worn Item. And LOL at the claim it increases the bulk you can carry. No, your bulk limit is the same strength determined value it always was.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:
Because Paizo habitually uses faster-than-linear price scaling even when not really appropriate. Classic example: the pricing on wands of higher level healing spells.

A wand that does twice as much healing is worth more than twice the price. Why? Because it still only takes one action to use. If you need 30 points of healing now, it doesn't help you that you can get cheaper cost-per-healing by healing those 30 points over 3 rounds.


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Metaphysician wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Because Paizo habitually uses faster-than-linear price scaling even when not really appropriate. Classic example: the pricing on wands of higher level healing spells.
A wand that does twice as much healing is worth more than twice the price. Why? Because it still only takes one action to use. If you need 30 points of healing now, it doesn't help you that you can get cheaper cost-per-healing by healing those 30 points over 3 rounds.

Right but most wands are used out of combat for healing.


Isaac Zephyr wrote:
Same as Aeon Stones and things like the Ferocity Blazon I got for my Envoy despite not being slotted still count against the 2 magic limit.

Aeon stones don't count for your 2 magic item limit you can have as many as you want. CRB pg 222


Styrofoam wrote:
Isaac Zephyr wrote:
Same as Aeon Stones and things like the Ferocity Blazon I got for my Envoy despite not being slotted still count against the 2 magic limit.
Aeon stones don't count for your 2 magic item limit you can have as many as you want. CRB pg 222

My bad on the Aeon Stone then.

My point stands though, and has the additional evidence then that the Null-Space Chamber lacks this exception to the rule in its text.

Sovereign Court

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The CRB doesn't tag items as [worn] or not, something they realized might be useful in Armory.

The Starfinder Backpack in Armory is [worn], but it also has more direct interaction with the wearer: it automagically puts the things the wearer needs at the top allowing fast draw/sheathe actions. And it effectively increases your carrying capacity. It doesn't mention anything about extradimensional space, you just treat your strength as higher. A starfinder backpack sitting on a shelf doesn't do anything an ordinary backpack doesn't do.

The null-space chamber on the other hand doesn't function any differently if you're wearing it or not wearing it. It contains stuff in its pocket dimension even if it's been sitting on the shelf for years. You could have a shapeship hold full of null-space chambers all filled with cargo.

So I don't think the case for treating it as a [worn] item is strong: there's nothing in there about needing to wear it to use it. It's not like a ring or a circlet or suchlike.

Sovereign Court

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Metaphysician wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Because Paizo habitually uses faster-than-linear price scaling even when not really appropriate. Classic example: the pricing on wands of higher level healing spells.
A wand that does twice as much healing is worth more than twice the price. Why? Because it still only takes one action to use. If you need 30 points of healing now, it doesn't help you that you can get cheaper cost-per-healing by healing those 30 points over 3 rounds.

Worth more because it's also faster, sure. But worth how much more? Considering how many people buy CLW wands vs. other wands, it seems clear that the price Paizo asks for this extra speed is higher than most people value it.


well the prices for healing wands drop out of a general pricing scheme for spells rather than a healing wand specific thing.


High-level consummables were overwhelmingly expensive in Pathfinder.

In Starfinder, you can choose to buy an item with disregard to its price if its a few levels under yours.


Ascalaphus wrote:

The null-space chamber on the other hand doesn't function any differently if you're wearing it or not wearing it. It contains stuff in its pocket dimension even if it's been sitting on the shelf for years. You could have a shapeship hold full of null-space chambers all filled with cargo.

So I don't think the case for treating it as a [worn] item is strong: there's nothing in there about needing to wear it to use it. It's not like a ring or a circlet or suchlike.

I'm not arguing the point of whether they still hold gear worn or not. Arguably, yes, if you wanted to buy 30 and use them for mass storage you can.

What I am saying it to actually use it as intended, it is worn, and thus would count against your magic. Even the art of it in the CRB is a pack with straps. If not worn, it would be fundamentally useless in a combat situation. Drawing anything from it is a full action, if it's not worn it's not readily accessible, so it would be a move action to take it out (minimum, a GM may rule more or less depending), a full action to draw from it, and then a move action to put it away, or else you need to drop it. In addition if you drew anything 2-handed from it then you'd also need a swift action in there to weild the thing you pulled out after you freed up the hand holding the NSC. That's effectively 3 turns to draw anything, which defeats the item's purpose.

So to use the item as intended, it needs to be worn as a backpack or arm bag. That makes it worn, and taking up a slot, whether it works outside that slot or not. This is why the exponential cost is on the same lines as say cyber-legs, you can only wear one of it at a time. If you need access to 100 bulk worth of items at your fingertips ready to go in a turn, you need to invest in a better Null-Space Chamber, and acknowledge it's going to take one of your slots. If you're going to fill them with nothing but junk you don't need, you can probably get away with carrying them similar to a portable hole.


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This thread is a great example for why Paizo needs to go back and apply the [Worn] tag to the necessary corebook items, like they did for the later books.

Sovereign Court

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Isaac Zephyr wrote:
What I am saying it to actually use it as intended, it is worn, and thus would count against your magic. Even the art of it in the CRB is a pack with straps. If not worn, it would be fundamentally useless in a combat situation.

I don't agree with your assumption that it was intended for combat at all. I think it's intended for long-distance adventuring where you need to carry lots of supplies or bring back lots of loot. Just like a bag of holding in Pathfinder is not a premier combat item.

The straps are just because you want to have your hands free.

Isaac Zephyr wrote:
Drawing anything from it is a full action, if it's not worn it's not readily accessible, so it would be a move action to take it out (minimum, a GM may rule more or less depending), a full action to draw from it, and then a move action to put it away, or else you need to drop it. In addition if you drew anything 2-handed from it then you'd also need a swift action in there to wield the thing you pulled out after you freed up the hand holding the NSC. That's effectively 3 turns to draw anything, which defeats the item's purpose.

I think the combat item is actually the Starfinder Backpack which allows much faster retrieval than the chamber.

Backpack: at the speed of drawing a weapon (move, or free during a move at BAB 1+
Chamber: full action


Its actually worse than a full action if the chamber is not already open.

I note it describes pressing a button on the chamber to open or close it. It doesn't describe the action it takes to press said button. Activating a magic item defaults to a standard action.

So its actually:

Backpack: At the speed of drawing a weapon (move, or free during a move at BAB 1+)

Chamber: Standard action to open the space.
Full action to get any object you want.
(Optional) Standard action to close the space.


Ascalaphus wrote:

I think the combat item is actually the Starfinder Backpack which allows much faster retrieval than the chamber.

Backpack: at the speed of drawing a weapon (move, or free during a move at BAB 1+
Chamber: full action

While I don't disagree on the Starfinder Backpack being faster, you're also looking at the difference between 4 extra bulk carried and, on the low end, 25.

They're both items with combat utility, it's what do you need more. Speed or quantity.

My Envoy would say speed, simply because most of what she carries are Healing Serums and Grenades, which she wants drawn on the move. Our Soldier who picks up every gun we find to have the different utility options (in case we run into something vulnerable to X) would prefer the quantity because heavy weapons are heavy, as would our Ysoki Operative as he can abuse Cheek Pouches a little bit and use the extra space to hold Barricade junk.

Saying something isn't a combat or worn item because another item has a similar function doesn't make it true. They both have different strengths.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:
Metaphysician wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Because Paizo habitually uses faster-than-linear price scaling even when not really appropriate. Classic example: the pricing on wands of higher level healing spells.
A wand that does twice as much healing is worth more than twice the price. Why? Because it still only takes one action to use. If you need 30 points of healing now, it doesn't help you that you can get cheaper cost-per-healing by healing those 30 points over 3 rounds.
Worth more because it's also faster, sure. But worth how much more? Considering how many people buy CLW wands vs. other wands, it seems clear that the price Paizo asks for this extra speed is higher than most people value it.

And as the rules changes for Starfinder suggest, this is because of unintended glitches in how Pathfinder works. Higher level cure wands were not overpriced, rather, low level cure wands were radically underpriced because of fundamental problems in how the game handled encounter endurance. If the prices were set via actual economics, CLW wands should have had their price increased, a lot. Instead, Paizo is trying to fix the underlying problem that makes cheap out of combat healing so desirable.


Know direction pointed out that some of the powered armor goes through a battery in 20 minutes, so you'll need a large bag of holding to get them around...

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