Quick Reload and Trick attack

[SirTristan]

Can I do a Quick Reload using Lightning Reload (Ex) and a Trick attack using the weapon Handcannon, swagger do I need the feat Quick Reload allso?
round one Trick attack and Quick Reload,round two Trick attack and Quick Reload all the way up to round 6??

Lightning Reload (Ex) You treat all small arms that do not have the automatic weapon special property as having the quick reload weapon special property.

Quick Reload feat
You can reload this weapon as part of the same action as firing it, instead of taking a move action to reload.

TRICK ATTACK (EX) 1ST LEVEL
You can trick or startle a foe and then attack when she drops her guard. As a full action, you can move up to your speed. Whether or not you moved, you can then make an attack with a melee weapon with the operative special property or with any small arm. Just before making your attack, attempt a Bluff, Intimidate, or Stealth check (or a check associated with your specialization) with a DC equal to 20 + your target’s CR. If you succeed at the check, you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target is flat-footed. This damage increases to 1d8 at 3rd level, to 3d8 at 5th level, and by an additional 1d8 every 2 levels thereafter. You can’t use this ability with a weapon that has the unwieldy special property or that requires a full action to make a single attack.

Handcannon, swagger 6 4,350 1d12 P 40 ft. Knockdown 6 shells 1 1 Analog, free hands (1), unwieldy

ANALOG
This weapon does not use any advanced electronics, computer systems, or electrical power sources. It is immune to abilities that target technology. While this use of the word “analog” is not technically correct when referring to technology, use of the term in this way has become common.

UNWIELDY
(from Starfinder Core Rulebook)
Weapons with the unwieldy special property are large and awkward, can’t be fired without cooling down first, or are otherwise difficult to use with repeated attacks. You can’t use an unwieldy weapon as part of a full attack (or any other action in which you could make multiple attacks), you can’t attack with it more than once per round, and you can’t use it to make an attack of opportunity.

A free hands
weapon is unbalanced or otherwise awkward to use. This difficulty in using the weapon can be negated by moving the listed number of hands that are not holding anything or being used for any other purpose as counterweights. You wield a free hands weapon using the normal number of hands, but if you have the listed number of free hands available while wielding it, the weapon is not considered unwieldy. For example, a kasatha wielding a flame spinner in two of her hands while her other two hands remain empty treats the weapon as though it does not have the unwieldy weapon special property.

[BigNorseWolf]

seems legit to me

[Lethallin]

As long as you keep that free hand free it doesn't have the Unwieldy trait, so it should be free to Trick attack with.

I'm not sure why you'd need quickload? It has 6 rounds in it before needing to be reloaded. It would be useful after your 6th attack, but before then you should be able to use it as normal without penalty. Unless I'm really missing something.

[meepothegreat]

As long as you're not doing society play its legit.

[meepothegreat]

Lethallin wrote:

As long as you keep that free hand free it doesn't have the Unwieldy trait, so it should be free to Trick attack with.

I'm not sure why you'd need quickload? It has 6 rounds in it before needing to be reloaded. It would be useful after your 6th attack, but before then you should be able to use it as normal without penalty. Unless I'm really missing something.

I know the Bravado Hand cannon has this problem, maybe he was thinking the tech level 2 one?

[Bootsie]

meepothegreat wrote:

As long as you're not doing society play its legit.

What'd be the issue in society?

[BigNorseWolf]

Bootsie wrote:

meepothegreat wrote:

As long as you're not doing society play its legit.

What'd be the issue in society?

Lightning Reload is banhammered in society play

[meepothegreat]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Bootsie wrote:

meepothegreat wrote:

As long as you're not doing society play its legit.

What'd be the issue in society?

Lightning Reload is banhammered in society play

Which I don't think I understand why, but maybe there's an abusive trick it I am not seeing. I guess sniper rifles?

[Xenocrat]

meepothegreat wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Bootsie wrote:

meepothegreat wrote:

As long as you're not doing society play its legit.

What'd be the issue in society?

Lightning Reload is banhammered in society play

Which I don't think I understand why, but maybe there's an abusive trick it I am not seeing. I guess sniper rifles?

It only works with small arms.

It raises DPS over long fights if you're 8th+ level and triple attacking. (Triple attacking does actually out DPS trick attack in some circumstances.) Most small arms have 10 shots from a full magazine, some dart guns only have 5. In a combat that goes 4+ rounds that's a decent boost to your DPS.

Edit: Correction, it hugely raises DPS with handcannons (the introductory one only has one shell) even if you're trick attacking. Normally you'd have to round 1: trick attack, round 2: reload and standard attack, (repeat round 2).

[HammerJack]

That introductory handcannon is only 1 more point of damage, on average, than the tactical semiautomatic pistol. I don't think that Lightning Reload is so powerful that there would be reason to look at banning it for a non-society game, for example. But it's not that strange that I don't always agree completely with what's banned, or with what isn't. That's just kind of the nature of Campaign Rules.

[Xenocrat]

HammerJack wrote:

That introductory handcannon is only 1 more point of damage, on average, than the tactical semiautomatic pistol.

It's 28.5% more average damage, call it a ~15% increase in expected DPS if you're using a standard attack.

[HammerJack]

Regardless of percentage, it's still 1 point. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be worthwhile, but it does mean it wouldn't be gamebreakingly powerful.

[SuperBidi]

Complete guess: Maybe Paizo plans on releasing high damage low ammunition small arms for them to be a bit more competitive in the hands of Envoys, Mystics and such, but don't want Operatives to get a damage boost. By forbidding this Trick, they avoid an issue later (as it's always harder to ban something afterwards).

I would definitively release better small arms, as they are currently pointless in the hand of anything but Operatives.

[meepothegreat]

Honestly by the time you can get the swagger version all you need to do is apply energetic fusion and it becomes less of a point. Now I have 20 shots before I run out instead of six.

I currently use the Bravado as an operative, but I run a non optimized detective other then skills. Would lightning reload have been cool to take in SFS? Heck yes. Would it make or break the character by not having it? No, because it would of lost value after 6th level beyond an eventual reload in combat.

Thinking on it, it really only helps if you know you're getting into extended fights a lot. Maybe Paizo didn't want to deal with people complaining about a class power they picked which ends up not getting much use?

You don't even get your full level to damage with small arms though either. Why hold onto them if you're going to multi-attack? Why not pick up longarm proficiency at 7th and do more damage? I guess for the occasional time when you want to trick attack. /shrug

[Xenocrat]

HammerJack wrote:

Regardless of percentage, it's still 1 point. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be worthwhile, but it does mean it wouldn't be gamebreakingly powerful.

Percentages are the only relevant and relative measure of anything given numerical inflation across levels. Percentage increase from feats, percentage of HP taken off by a hit, percentage chance of failing a save, etc.

If you're indifferent between a $1 per hour wage raise in 2019 vs. 1980 you're doing it wrong. And if you're indifferent about a 1 point damage raise without asking how much of an increase that is from your base, you're also doing it wrong.

meepothegreat wrote:

Honestly by the time you can get the swagger version all you need to do is apply energetic fusion and it becomes less of a point. Now I have 20 shots before I run out instead of six.

Fusions aren't that cheap as a percentage of WBL. Not having to invest in one is a pretty decent deal.

meepothegreat wrote:

You don't even get your full level to damage with small arms though either. Why hold onto them if you're going to multi-attack? Why not pick up longarm proficiency at 7th and do more damage? I guess for the occasional time when you want to trick attack. /shrug

You're only going to multiattack in the limited but not tiny number of circumstances where it does more DPS than trick attack (and you don't need the debuff or movement from trick attack more than the bit of extra DPS). Spending feats and money to occasionally attack twice with a longarm instead of 3-4 times with a small arm isn't smart.

EDIT: In any case, the SFS issue is likely that too many people already play Operatives (maybe) and lots of people complain that they are too prevalent and too capable of too many things (definitely), so making them better at DPS on top of their skill mastery isn't something that will make that community a happier place.

[HammerJack]

If I was asking "how good is lightning reload for a level 2 operative using a handcannon instead of a tactical semiautomatic pistol" that percentage might be the thing that mattered. Well, after modifying for not only doing standard attacks.

But that's not the questions I was asking. The question I was asking is whether allowing lightning reload to compensate for the 1 round capacity of a level 2 handcannon is powerful enough to be unbalanced against everything else in the game. For that question, the number of points of expected damage is more important than the percentage of a specific other attack.

Whether the operative is doing soldier/solarian level damage and making those players feel overshadowed in the area they should be the best at is much more important for my question than what the percentage increase on expected damage from a single shot on a handcannon vs another pistol, without specialization (because it isn't a question only at level 2) or trick attack.