So here's a bit of a recap; Last night me and my crew were playing Against the Aeon Throne (NO SPOILERS) and we're fighting some Azlanti who were specifically dispatched out to find them and kill them. Now they had set up an ambush of sorts given that they were waiting on the Azlanti to show up. One PC (our witchwarper) wants to charm person one of the Azlanti and convince him not to shoot at him or his team mates, in front of the two other Azlanti beside him.
Now my thoughts here are that the spell would function and that if successful that the Azlanti would not fire on the Witchwarper, but for him not to attack the witchwarper's allies goes against their nature since the whole reason they're out and about is to find and capture/kill the PCs?
In my opinion even though the Azlanti is susceptible to the spell Charm Person, this doesn't make him allies with the allies of the Charm Person, especially if they're here to hunt them specifically - and to further complicate this, he also doesn't believe that if he's successful, that his team mates firing on the Azlanti's team members wouldn't dispell the charm person because the attacks do not directly target the charmed person?
Another point that the witchwarper brought up was that the charmed person treats you as its trusted friend and ally, and that because of the charm that the Azlanti would listen to suggestions that he gives him ("Don't shoot my friends"), but that still seems like a conflicting order that goes against their nature? Especially given their dislike for anything non-azlanti.
Also, the Azlanti didn't speak common, and the Witchwarper doesn't speak Azlanti.
What do you guys think? How does charm person work in this sort of scenario?
Edit after Xenocrat posted: Thinking more about it, I think it just doesn't work. If I meet a group of orcs with my pals, and amongst them, there's... well, I don't know his name, I don't know where or when I met him, I hate orcs and we don't even share a common language. So, I'll very quickly realize that my attraction is certainly magical of some sort, and consider him as an enemy.
Which is extremely different from the situation where, say, the orcs kill all my friends and capture me, trying to get information from me. And among their group, there's one orc I feel nice and I think I can trust, so I negociate with him to keep my life against the information they ask.
Charms, like illusions, can be disbelieved if they are paradoxal with reality. Everyone knows magic exist, and, as such, everyone can think he's tricked by it.
I agree with everyone else, a charmed enemy will generally still attack your allies. If you want them not to, you have to do the opposed charisma check option.
The base charm effect just makes the caster your friend (not even your best friend - they're Friendly, but not Helpful). If I were a cop rushing into a bank robbery in progress and one of the bankrobbers is my friend and neighbor who I sometimes have over for a beer, I'm still going to shoot any of his crew members who are armed and threatening me no matter what he says.
So I feel like I didn't do the best to describe the situation. Group of 4 PCs set up an ambush to attack three Azlanti soldiers. The witchwarper wants to charm person one of the Azlanti before the shooting starts to convince him to -not- attack any of the PCs (because we're friends, and I'm telling you not to attack my friends), all the mean while when the other PCs shoot the non-charmed Azlanti, this wouldn't break the charm because the spell text says "Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed creature breaks the spell." and the other PCs aren't targeting the charmed creature specifically.
Still, I have to say, it still doesn't make sense to me given the current situation. My major hang ups are that the Azlanti doesnt speak common, are specifically hunting for the PC's to capture/kill, the party within the same round would be opening fire on the Azlanti's squad (which doesn't directly threaten him, but they're a part of a trained military unit???).
And this is why the spell has a save. Fail the save, you fail to realize that magic made you think that thing that was a target is now a pretty ok guy.
"The spell does not enable you to control the charmed creature as if it were an automaton. It is unlikely to attempt to harm you, but it is also unlikely to attack any of its true friends or allies."
Emphasis mine. So, no, you are still quite aware the guy's not ok. Just, you consider him as a friend. But if there is no way you can befriend him, you know there's something happening.
Sure, fine, somewhere in the back of the Azlant's mind, maybe he's aware something isn't quite right.
Doesn't matter. He's still charmed. And he'll go ahead and be Friendly with the charmer unless the charmer attacks him, or an 'unlikely' reason to stop being Friendly shows up.
Such as the charmer's friends shooting at him or his allies?
If the charmer's friends shot the charmed target, then yes. *Edit* Because this is in the rules of the spell. The ‘unlikely’ clause and GM intervention don’t need to show up for this example, because the rules tell us how it works. *end edit*
If the charmer's friends shot the charmed target's original friends, then no, not by the rules of charm. *edit* This example could invoke GM discretion and the 'unlikely' clause. Could, but doesn't have to.
My thought process here is the Azlanti already see everyone in this colony as "less-than-Azlanti" and they're all here
Because of that, I still have a hard time accepting that the charm would apply to anyone other than the person who casted the spell, and any sort of violence to the NPC or the NPCs around the charmed NPC would be enough to -at the very least- spurn an opposed check because it goes against his nature to not return fire.
Oh I definitely don't think we're arguing here at all. <3 Whole reason I'm posting here is so I can hear other people's ideas? I'm still slightly heated, because the conversation at the table went less than ideal but that's why I'm here, so I can get other GM's opinions on how this should play out.
Pathfinder introduced the "all the world's my friend" version of Charm in, I think, Inner Sea Intrigue. It solves this problem by making the targets stop fighting anyone and agreeing to help everyone who asks.
Pathfinder introduced the "all the world's my friend" version of Charm in, I think, Inner Sea Intrigue. It solves this problem by making the targets stop fighting anyone and agreeing to help everyone who asks.
So what are you refering to and what point are you trying to get across, I'm not sure I understand?
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I think part of the problem is that you and your player don't seem to agree on "what is Charm Person good for?"
He's a witchwarper. He can know only a very few spells. If a spell turns out to do much less than you thought, that's a big disappointment.
That said, Charm Person has never been an easy spell to use. It's often no good against individual targets who are currently accompanied by other people that you're not charming, and it's also no good in combat (the big save DC bonus when hostilities break out). I also don't think you should be splitting hairs on exactly who's being shot at. If a bunch of people start shooting your comrades, you're probably next even if you like that one guy that's not shooting.
I suggest sitting down with your player and hammering out in which situations Charm Person would be good and when it won't be, and then giving him the choice of learning a different spell if he decides it isn't worth it anymore.
I suggest sitting down with your player and hammering out in which situations Charm Person would be good and when it won't be, and then giving him the choice of learning a different spell if he decides it isn't worth it anymore.
I like this idea a lot, we will have time to do this between sessions because we only play once a month. That being said, how do you specifically feel about the spell? What situations are good for Charm Person or not good in your opinion?
"Against one's nature" should not be conflated with "following orders."
They are not remotely the same.
"Against one's nature" should not be conflated with "following orders."
They are not remotely the same.
In this scenario they kind of are? Azlanti view every other species out there, including Pact World Humans, as inferior species worth nothing except for to enslave and bring under the heel of the Star Empire. If their orders are to capture and kill the "filthy aliens," I feel like their orders and nature align almost exactly.
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Humanity has a nasty habit of not being consistent, regardless of where they are from or who they associate with...
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I suggest sitting down with your player and hammering out in which situations Charm Person would be good and when it won't be, and then giving him the choice of learning a different spell if he decides it isn't worth it anymore.I like this idea a lot, we will have time to do this between sessions because we only play once a month. That being said, how do you specifically feel about the spell? What situations are good for Charm Person or not good in your opinion?
I think Charm Person as a spell has been treated a bit poorly over the years by rulings on how obvious spellcasting is in general. There's also tension about just how much influence the spell gives the caster.
* There's nothing in the spell that says the target forgets stuff, so after it wears off, the target might realize something weird was going on.
* There's nothing in the spell about the target not noticing the act of casting the spell, and the CRB says:
A cast spell always has obvious effects that are noticeable by nearby creatures; it is not possible to clandestinely cast a spell.
So if you walk up to a lone guard and cast Charm Person, if he fails his save, he likes you, but he still knows you just cast a spell. If he rolls well on Mysticism (DC 15), he realizes you're casting Charm Person on him. Does that create the hostile situation described in the spell that gives him a +5 on his save?
* Other bystanders notice you cast the spell. If you try to get past a pair of guards by casting Charm Person on one of them, that's not going to go smoothly.
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So there's a lot of problems with Charm Person being hard to cast on someone without being obvious about it and probably ruining half its usefulness in the process. But what if you pull it off? The target will be friendly and generally cooperative with stuff that doesn't go against his own wishes. And:
You can try to give the target suggestions, but you must succeed at an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries of this check are not allowed.)
That's almost the same language as in Pathfinder, but with a significant difference:
You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.)
One of the things that could lead to hissy fits in Pathfinder was that either a PC with pumped up Charisma would try spamming Charm Person on every NPC and stomping all over the plot, or the GM would have an NPC with Charm Person try to boss a PC around (players never like that, and will argue lots and lots on whether any given order is too much), or you get adventure plots where an NPC uses Charm Person on another NPC in ways that go far and far beyond what the spell can really do just to get the plot show on the road.
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Taking into account all that, what would I do? Starfinder has downgraded "orders" to "suggestions", an improvement. Makes the spell more reasonable. I would consider making this spell the exception in that you can actually cast it without being obvious about it. It's the only way the spell can really be used in the way it seems to be intended. Limited influence, but discreetly. Not really useful in combat (warn your player) but very useful for gathering information, sneaking around, getting into restricted areas etc.
I suggest sitting down with your player and hammering out in which situations Charm Person would be good and when it won't be, and then giving him the choice of learning a different spell if he decides it isn't worth it anymore.I like this idea a lot, we will have time to do this between sessions because we only play once a month. That being said, how do you specifically feel about the spell? What situations are good for Charm Person or not good in your opinion?I think Charm Person as a spell has been treated a bit poorly over the years by rulings on how obvious spellcasting is in general. There's also tension about just how much influence the spell gives the caster.
* There's nothing in the spell that says the target forgets stuff, so after it wears off, the target might realize something weird was going on.
There's an answer to that. The Overlord Mystic Connection says this:
Inexplicable Commands (Su) - 1st LevelWhen one of your mind-affecting charm or compulsion spells or spell-like abilities ends, the target loses all memory that it was magically controlled or influenced. That creature still remembers the actions it took, but may be confused by them.
So, only the Overlord has the power to make the target forget he was mind-controlled. Therefore, every other spellcaster does not have that power. The target will definitely know he was controlled, and should react as such.
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I'm fine with Overlords being the only ones to wipe memory of being influenced. That's the mind-wiping afterwards that helps you avoid repercussions on the longer term. Mystic connection is a fairly big deal.
My main change I'd want to make to Charm Person is to make it not so obvious that it is being cast. So that while you're under the influence, you probably don't know you're charmed. Afterwards, you notice that you feel very different (unless it was done by an Overlord). And it should be possible to cast the spell in a social situation without everyone noticing immediately.
Yeah, it definitely seems like it's intended to be used that way, but I've never seen a PC be able to pull it off. Yet a lot of BBEG plans hinge on influencing the right people at the right time.
Maybe that answers the question on its own: perhaps it's more intended to be an NPC spell. Much like how there are a lot of archetypes that a sane PC wouldn't take, but would fit perfectly for certain NPCs.
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There are some big IFs that have to fall in your favor for Charm Person to work. A lot of it is situational, so it can only happen if the GM wants to let it happen.
I see the language as the primary barrier, because in addition to the Charm Person, you probably need to follow it up with a Big Bluff to fast talk the target into believing that maybe their associates are not true friends, and that's why you have to attack the non-charmed Azlanti co-workers.
Maybe you have a Mindlink Circlet Mk3, the only model that will let you telepathically communicate with someone who doesn't have a language in common with you. If your party can delay violence for a round, long enough to (telepathically) Bluff that "You are in great danger, those you are with are about to turn on you. In order to protect you we must attack them."
Maybe the GM rules that the target Azlanti doesn't really like his fellow co-workers. (These are the guys that hazed him cruelly in boot-camp.) If instead they are truly close friends, then an attack on them could easily be considered as if the target was attacked directly.
Maybe the Azlanti you choose to charm doesn't have the stereotypical "Every other race is inferior to us" attitude. Again the GM would have to enable this to let the plot twist in an interesting direction. Fate brings you into contact with one of the very few Azlanti that has sympathy for another race.
Maybe you and your party have some time to pull off some theatrics, a disguise to make the witchwarper look like another Azlanti, a way to communicate and a good story/bluff to give a good reason why a combat against the target's companions is about to happen.
That's a bunch of big Maybe's that have to go your way. In this unlikely of a situation it will take some effort on your party's part and a huge amount of luck to pull off. If the target of the Charm Person is a key NPC it's worth trying. You don't go to this level of effort to try and make the combat easier and ultimately kill off the charmed character at the end of the battle. Charm Person is a Finesse-and-avoid-combat spell rather than a combat spell.
Charm spells are an obsolete relic of our halcyon days playing AD&D when we didn't have all the rules-lawyering stuff because the rules were much more fuzzy, way less detailed. In those days, rules lawyers still existed, but we were arguing opinions of how we wanted to play rather than interpretations of existing rules minutiae.
In 3rd edition and Pathfinder and now Starfinder, rules became increasingly detailed and Charm Person became completely broken by these details.
As other posters have mentioned, it's nearly impossible to cast any spell on any target without them knowing you cast a spell on them. Friends just don't do that to each other, so casting a spell to make a target your friend means he's a really pissed off friend because you, his so-called friend just cast a spell on him.
There are ways around it. A clever caster might put on a magic show, using numerous cantrips to entertain his intended victim, accompanied by clever and funny patter to make the show entertaining. Slip in one Charm Person in the middle of the magic show, and the victim will never know the difference (unless they have ranks in Spellcraft/Mysticism and identify that spell - a whole extra layer of complication to be sure). A clever caster might be dispensing free magic on a street corner. Come get a Bull's Strength and go back to work bigger and stronger! Come let me heal your injury or cure your disease or detect if you've been poisoned, diseased, cursed, or charmed! Etc. Then slip in a Charm Person on the gullible fool who wants some free magic.
Doing it in public means every other potential witness knows what you did, especially if your target begins behaving differently, more friendly, immediately after you cast your spell.
You can work around this by finding a way to be alone with your target.
Finally, of course he remembers what you did. If you manage to successfully avoid the above challenges and land a Charm Person on the village blacksmith and convince him to make a masterwork sword for you, his good buddy, he might do it. But when that spell wears off, he's going to remember:
1. He didn't even know you before he suddenly thought you were his best friend.
2. He let you talk him into doing all that work for free, even though he didn't even know you an hour before.
3. He remembers who you are, what you look like, what you said, what you did, and all his strange behavior.
He will go straight to local authorities and tell them he was duped by an Enchanter and give them the full description.
Congratulations, you just became a wanted criminal.
This can be extra bad if you actually LIVE in that village.
Side note: In a world with actual magic, I imagine mind-compulsion magic is just about the absolute most hated and feared kind of magic. Being a criminal Enchanter is probably worse than being a criminal murderer, at least in regards to how much the citizenry fear you and how hard the law enforcement is willing to go to put an end to your horrifying crimes. Maybe only necromancy is worse, and that's a maybe.
So, our broken relic of a spell has been rules-lawyered into nearly complete uselessness. Don't use it where you live. Don't use it on anybody who might ever see you again. Don't use it in public. Find some way to let your victim see you use it on him and not be angry about it.
And it still only makes him your friend. No domination, no orders, no doing anything that he wouldn't ordinarily do for a good friend. Which means very little benefit for a huge amount of risk and difficulty of use.
I always warn my players about this when they consider taking the spell. I tell them it's primarily a 'plot device' kind of spell for NPCs and is immensely impractical for PC use in most kinds of game campaigns, period.
The one good use I've seen of it: PCs captured some villain henchman and interrogated him. He was bound and intentionally sleep-deprived but not really tortured. The PC wizard remained hidden through the process, never seen by the victim. When they finally let him sleep, the wizard charmed him then helped him escape. The NPC was happy to be rescued by his good buddy. During their escape, they talked, and of course the wizard learned everything they needed to know.
The NPC didn't see the casting. Check. The NPC was alone. Check. The NPC was never going to see the PCs again. Check. The NPC did what he would ordinarily do with a buddy: escape and discuss his situation. Check.
Outside of specific situations like that, it's pretty much useless.
My main change I'd want to make to Charm Person is to make it not so obvious that it is being cast. So that while you're under the influence, you probably don't know you're charmed. Afterwards, you notice that you feel very different (unless it was done by an Overlord). And it should be possible to cast the spell in a social situation without everyone noticing immediately.
In my opinion, it would make the spell overwhelmingly powerful. Charm Person makes a person your friend. Whoever it is, whatever the situation. Being able to use Charm Person without being noticed would be easily abused: Free equipment ("I need this weapon, but I don't have the money right now, may I borrow it?"), unlimited access to restricted area ("I want to see the queen - Who are you? - Your friend!"), combined knowledge of all NPCs ("So, guard captain, tell me if you are part of a secret cult."), etc...
For me, Charm Person is fine the way it is. It's a first level spell, with a very powerful effect but very hard to cast. Look at the other first level Enchantment spells: Command, Lesser Confusion... They are plain bad, and you'll never cast them past level 6. Charm Person keeps its usefullness very late in the game.If you want combat influence, you'll have to wait for higher level spells (Dominate, Suggestion). And if you want to be able to make anyone your friend, you'll have to invest heavily on Charisma, Diplomacy and such. It seems balanced to me.
Friends cast spells on each other all the time. At least they do in every game I've ever participated in.
Yeah, but they have reasons. "Hey, that orc hit Jim with an axe. I'll heal Jim, then give him Bull's Strength, too." Jim kinda expects that sort of thing.
But if Jim is working in his smithy and his buddy Carl walks in and casts a random spell on him, Jim is likely to react just about like you or I would react, in the real world, if Carl walked in and pointed a gun at us. At the very least, we'd be angry and concerned, and pissed that Carl was possibly putting us in danger by being careless with a dangerous weapon. Even if he's a good friend I'd be yelling at him about how that was a stupid thing to do - at the very least.
If IRL magic worked and my buddy walked up, for no reason, and cast a spell at me, I'd assume it's probably a douchebag prank and now my hair was green or there might be an unfortunate drawing on my forehead or maybe he was going to force me to bark like a dog for the next 10 minutes, or some other lame prank, and that would piss me off too.
That's a good point, Pantshandshake, but I don't believe anyone was really saying that.
It's more about what the target remembers and how they will react after the charm wears off.
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My main change I'd want to make to Charm Person is to make it not so obvious that it is being cast. So that while you're under the influence, you probably don't know you're charmed. Afterwards, you notice that you feel very different (unless it was done by an Overlord). And it should be possible to cast the spell in a social situation without everyone noticing immediately.In my opinion, it would make the spell overwhelmingly powerful. Charm Person makes a person your friend. Whoever it is, whatever the situation. Being able to use Charm Person without being noticed would be easily abused: Free equipment ("I need this weapon, but I don't have the money right now, may I borrow it?"), unlimited access to restricted area ("I want to see the queen - Who are you? - Your friend!"), combined knowledge of all NPCs ("So, guard captain, tell me if you are part of a secret cult."), etc...
I think you're making my proposal sounds more far-ranging than it is. What I'm proposing is:
* The act of casting Charm Person is not as noticeable as casting other spells.* The rule that says you notice it when you succeed at a save still remains. So if you try to Charm someone and they succeed at the save, there's still trouble.
* People don't automatically forget about how they felt afterwards (except for Overlord connection mystics) so you do leave a "situation" afterwards.
* People still get the +5 on their save if you try Charm when hostilities are already underway.
* Note that Starfinder Charm only allows for "suggestions" on a Charisma check, not the "commands" that Pathfinder Charm allows.
So using Charm Person is a bit like spiking someone's drink. It's done subtly, not with a big lightshow. People might still notice an odd taste. And they'll wonder afterwards why they acted oddly.
For me, Charm Person is fine the way it is. It's a first level spell, with a very powerful effect but very hard to cast. Look at the other first level Enchantment spells: Command, Lesser Confusion... They are plain bad, and you'll never cast them past level 6. Charm Person keeps its usefullness very late in the game.
If you want combat influence, you'll have to wait for higher level spells (Dominate, Suggestion). And if you want to be able to make anyone your friend, you'll have to invest heavily on Charisma, Diplomacy and such. It seems balanced to me.
Command is actually quite good. Forcing someone to walk past all your allies triggering AoOs, and basically losing out on a useful turn? That's very powerful. It fades a bit at higher level because the save DC doesn't scale, but Charm Person has that problem too.
And Charm Person really isn't combat influence; it's far too fragile for that.
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If someone you don't know starts casting a spell on you, and you succeed at a DC 15 Mysticism check to realize he's attempting to assault your mind, that should justify the +5 bonus to saves for hostilities.
If you fail the save you'll forgive the caster maybe, but the odds of failing the save dropped a lot.