Insomniac Oracles


Rules Questions


Hi guys,

So currently I'm playing a Rage Prophet (Agree to disagree that it's a trap), but I've got a question about the Lame curse ability of the Oracle class.

Lame Curse:
One of your legs is permanently wounded, reducing your base land speed by 10 feet if your base speed is 30 feet or more. If your base speed is less than 30 feet, your speed is reduced by 5 feet. Your speed is never reduced due to encumbrance.

At 5th level, you are immune to the fatigued condition (but not exhaustion).

At 10th level, your speed is never reduced by armor.

At 15th level, you are immune to the exhausted condition.

It says that at 5th level, I'm immune to the fatigued condition, and at 15th level, I'm immune to the exhausted condition.

Does this mean I can sleep in medium armor? Sleeping in medium armor (without the endurance feat) makes you fatigued, but the oracle is immune to fatigue.

Does this also mean I no longer have to sleep? Or do the sleep deprivation rules kick in?

sleep deprivation rules:
Sleep Deprivation
A character can stay awake for a number of additional hours beyond its normal waking hours (16 hours for most characters) equal to her Wisdom bonus without suffering any ill effects.

For each hour that a character remains awake beyond this amount, she must attempt a Wisdom check (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1 point of sanity damage (see the sanity rules). Characters who have taken sanity damage from sleep deprivation are drowsy (see below). The severity of this condition is based upon the total amount of sanity damage taken from sleep deprivation—she has minor drowsiness if she has any amount of sanity damage from sleep deprivation, moderate drowsiness if her sanity damage from sleep deprivation exceeds half her sanity edge, and severe drowsiness if her sanity damage from sleep deprivation exceeds her sanity edge. If a character’s sanity damage equals or exceeds her sanity score, she becomes comatose (as if she had a Wisdom score of 0) for 48 hours if at least one-quarter (25%) of that sanity damage is the result of sleep deprivation.

Sanity damage from sleep deprivation can only be recovered by sleeping (see below).

Sleep Deprivation and Madness
As with all sources of sanity damage, sleep deprivation can induce madness (see the madness section in Chapter 5 of Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Horror Adventures). Lesser madness caused by lack of sleep takes the form of delirium, fugue, hallucination, or melancholia, while greater madness takes the form of amnesia, catatonia, psychosomatic loss, or schizophrenia.

Recovering from Sleep Deprivation
Sanity damage from sleep deprivation cannot be recovered until the character gets sleep. No magic that restores sanity damage short of wish or miracle heals this damage. A character doesn’t need to make Wisdom checks to avoid sanity damage while she is unconscious or sleeping. A character who gains two consecutive nights of good sleep heals a number of points of sanity damage from sleep deprivation equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 0) + 1 point per consecutive good night’s sleep. A character who has become comatose from sleep deprivation (see above) heals an amount of sanity damage equal to this amount upon waking up, as if she had gotten two nights of good sleep.


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If you're playing in a game using Sanity, sleep deprivation is still a problem yes.

Technically you are right, in a basic game you're looking at ignoring most of the basic penalties for not getting sleep, that being fatigue and exhaustion. However, the larger penalty for flat out not sleeping is going to be not being able to restore HP through resting, or getting your used spell slots from the day back.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Divine casters don't need to rest, they get their spell slots back at a certain time of day.


Val'bryn2 wrote:
Divine casters don't need to rest, they get their spell slots back at a certain time of day.

Can you give a rules citation on that one? I can't find one either way, but I would love to rub it in my GM's face "Op, it's 2 AM in game time, all my spell slots are restored." in the middle of an adventuring day.

The prepared casters are listed needing at least a preparatory hour, arcane or divine. Spontaneous caster don't have anything written since they don't prepare, but if it's time locked that would also mean depending on circumstances you'd be screwing over players.

I as a GM have always been under the assumption the day is over when the players take their rest, or after 16 or so hours, whichever comes first. Cause yeah, time locked would be bookkeeping on the GM's part, and telling your divine casters "Sorry, I know this part of the adventure is at night, but your spell restore was 30 minutes ago. You're going to have no spell slots back when the wizard does at the end of this chapter."


Quote:
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells.


After looking, I think resting only matters to wizards.

Wizard wrote:
He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.

Clerics on the other hand.

Cleric wrote:
Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells.

Spontaneous casters don't seem to specify one way or the other if rest matters or at least I was unable to find anything that seemed to indicate one way or the other. I think it's generally assumed that wizards set the baseline for arcane casters and that clerics set the baseline for divine casters. Which is fine, except oracles don't have any worship requirements. Their whole deal is "I never asked for these powers" and depending on the individual oracle they may see them as a blessing or a curse.


willuwontu wrote:
Quote:
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells.

Again, this is specifically preparation, and I could find that easily under Cleric spellcasting. The full quoted text:

"Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, she must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, she must wait until the next day to prepare spells."

It's also under the header "Preparing Divine Spells", something which an Oracle does not do as a Spontaneous caster. There's also two other headers under the same section, "Spell Selection and Preparation" which talks about leaving slots empty and needing time to fill them later, and "Spell Slots" which was my actual point of contention about not getting rest and ending your day. And contains nothing about when you get your spell slots back.


Preparing divine spells in the CRB. As far as I know, they never updated the text in APG to include spontaneous divine casters so they use the same rules as clerics and not as sorcerers.

You pick a time of day, you spend one hour preparing, and you get your spells back at that time of day.

Including the recent casting rule - any spells cast in the last 8 hours count against your spells you can prepare.

There was a plot point around this in an AP, the baddie had to work a ritual for something like 7 days straight, he just kept preparing lesser restoration & create food and water to stave of fatigue, exhaustion and starvation.


Isaac Zephyr wrote:
It's also under the header "Preparing Divine Spells", something which an Oracle does not do as a Spontaneous caster. There's also two other headers under the same section, "Spell Selection and Preparation" which talks about leaving slots empty and needing time to fill them later, and "Spell Slots" which was my actual point of contention about not getting rest and ending your day. And contains nothing about when you get your spell slots back.

Sure, but nothing says they need to rest either, unlike arcane casters, whose text indicates they do.

As for regaining of slots:

Quote:
Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Oracle. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells)

They get them back automatically, unlike sorcerers and bards who specifically have to spend 15 minutes concentrating to regain theirs.


willuwontu wrote:
They get them back automatically, unlike sorcerers and bards who specifically have to spend 15 minutes concentrating to regain theirs.

Actually, they probably need to spend an hour preparing, because nothing says they don'tuse the standard 'preparing divine spells' rule.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So, in your games, SPONTANEOUS divine casters have to prepare, because there weren't any rules about them at first? Despite it being perfectly obvious that they behave exactly like sorcerers, except for the different style of casting?


Garretmander wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
They get them back automatically, unlike sorcerers and bards who specifically have to spend 15 minutes concentrating to regain theirs.
Actually, they probably need to spend an hour preparing, because nothing says they don'tuse the standard 'preparing divine spells' rule.

Except that they don't prepare spells. ;D


By the same logic, all of the Occult Adventures Psychic casters play by no rules. Nothing says they need to rest, and as neither Arcane nor Divine they don't apply to standard magic rules. The same would be true of most of the hybrid classes, since the base magic rules are divided by class and not the specific details of each class's Spells.

Long story though, the point I'm getting at is that the day ends when the players/GM end it. Normally this is any period in which the players take a long rest, as it would be nonsense to book keep the exact hour of the day when everyone gets slots back. Some days are shorter than others, others take place at radically different hours. Opening the floor to say "Let's adventure between 4 PM and 8 AM every other day so that I can use all my spell slots in the first 8 hours, then get them back at midnight for the second 8 hours." is nowhere written, and a blatant attempt to munchkin the RAW/RAI of base rules which barely apply to many of the post CRB classes.

To get back to the OP's question though, there are other sleep rules as well like taking skill check penalties, and penalties to resist sleep effects. They are optional. Your biggest hit though is going to be not healing HP or Ability Damage from rest. And as mentioned per-day things like saves vs poison and disease, spell slots, etc. your GM may rule without rest and ending your day you aren't benefiting from getting those.


To be honest though, I actually originally tapped into this conversation because I thought Insomniac may have been its own curse. It felt like it could have been, though the closest is a 3rd party one, Waking Dreamer. I think Insomniac might be a cool, if not a tad harsh one.

Like the base is it's difficult for you to sleep, whether due to visions or voices or what have you, so you are perpetually Fatigued and gain only half the benefits from full resting.

5th level you could get some bonus illusion spells, reminescint of hallucinations. Maybe Auditory Hallucination? (A fun spell I love by the way.)

10th you've grown so used to the fatigue that you no longer suffer the ill effects of fatigue.

15th level, you no longer need to sleep, instead at the end of each day you can spend 8 innactive hours performing no more than light activity, but gain the benefits as if you had spent a full day resting (ignoring the penalty from your base curse of course).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No, they aren't divided by class. There are two sets of two divisions: spontaneo us vs prepared, and arcane vs divine.


Val'bryn2 wrote:
No, they aren't divided by class. There are two sets of two divisions: spontaneo us vs prepared, and arcane vs divine.

Those are the general headers, but the original Magic chapters are divided into Arcane, which has a section for Wizards, and then one for Bards and Sorcerers who we know to be spontaneous now, and then Divine which only has prepared rules.

The original draft of the Magic rules has spontaneous listed as Bards and Sorcerers and under the Arcane header, not as its own thing (as there were no spontaneous divine casters at the time of release). Later releases never adjusted these base rules, so they are still labeled by class, and not their individual properties.

Psychic Magic doesn't have any rules listed for spontaneous or prepared, only how the components change. By this point, I think it was just automatically assumed everyone understood the differences between Arcane and Divine, and Prepared and Spontaneous.

You can look at the rules yourself down at the bottom. As far as I can tell, rules specifically detailing prepared and spontaneous casters in general were never written. Though there are feats that call out one or the other specifically. It's frankly odd to me, and a little dumb if I may say, that the game didn't adjust the base rules when it started actively building exceptions against them.


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Val'bryn2 wrote:
So, in your games, SPONTANEOUS divine casters have to prepare, because there weren't any rules about them at first? Despite it being perfectly obvious that they behave exactly like sorcerers, except for the different style of casting?

No, at our table if this ever came up, we'd probably just use the same rules as sorcerers and bards for spontaneous divine casters. That just makes sense.

However, this is the rules forum. Unless I've missed a FAQ about other spontaneous casters, divine spontaneous use the same rules as divine prepared casters. Psychic casters do have a developer clarification.

Clarification on psychic preparation:
Mark Seifter Clarification


Oracle Spellcasting wrote:
Unlike a cleric, an oracle need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level. Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components.

I don't see why you can't just cross-reference other classes spellcasting ability to each other.

The Spellcasting class feature and magic section of the core book literally write the rules you need to follow for each caster:
>Wizards/Witches/Arcanists/Magi need 8 hours of sleep and 1 (continuous) hour of study to prepare spells.

>Bards/Sorcerers/Skalds/Bloodragers/Summoners regain their spell slots at the beginning of the day [no preparation time, as they are spontaneous casters, and as arcane casters need 8 hours of sleep between each day to regain slots.]

>Clerics/Druids/Rangers/Paladins/Shamans/Warpriests all require 1 (continuous) hour each day to prepare their spells, as they are provided by their deity [but lack the '8 hours of sleep' clause].

>Hunters/Inquisitors/Oracles function in the same way as the spontaneous arcane casters [no preparation time, and no '8 hours of sleep' clause].

>Occultist/Spiritualist/Psychic/Mesmerist all function as spontaneous arcane casters (as per the FAQ brought up by Garretmander) with the rationale listed above.

>Alchemists and Investigators work in a way that they do not have the '8 hours of sleep' clause, but are unique in that they require 1 minute of work per extract with no 'mass production' method of preparation as most prepared casters have (possibly attributing to the fact they are pseudo-casters.) Personally would treat these as a prepared arcane caster with the 8 hours of sleep, as alchemical reagents are just as volatile as arcane spells.
__________________

If I am wrong in any of the following assumptions, please let me know; as from my understanding, RAI the rules are meant to provide a fun, diverse set of guidelines to play a game, where as RAW they are to prevent an exploitation of the barriers that are left up to GMs, or even PFS (depending on gaming scenarios) to allow or disallow certain interpretations from impeding/devaluing another player's experience in playing the game.


...Upon rereading my ending statement, if I'm coming across as overly hostile, I apologize; just have fun, and if a more official ruling takes precedent, adhere to it for more official games.


Alphavoltario wrote:
...Upon rereading my ending statement, if I'm coming across as overly hostile, I apologize; just have fun, and if a more official ruling takes precedent, adhere to it for more official games.

S'all good. You're pretty much on the ball with how I think things are intended and understood. My comment on the matter has been more "When does a day end?" and just kinda noticing in it all the terms we use frequently are kinda ironically not the base system.


Thanks for the info.

I mostly agree with Isaac Zephyr. Using the same rules for spontaneous casters as the rules for prepared casters is just nullifying the advantage of sponteneous casters (For either Divine or Arcane).

Since I'm a GM in one party and a player in an other party, I find it difficult to make a decision between "yes or no sleep". I could rule in my own game that a Lame oracle just needs to chillax for an hour or so to regain all her dailies, but I will also discuss this with my GM, who is far more experienced in GMing. And since we both use the Wounds&Vigor mechanism, we don't heal HP during a nights rest, but the ability damage does heal overnight (1 damage per night). And an Oracle may still choose to sleep (just like a character with a ring of sustenance may still choose to eat, but not needs to eat) in case of ability damage and such, if her immunity to fatigue and exhaustion may cause her to no longer need sleep.

Although I do think that the fatigue is more a physical issue, the mental deprivation of sleep is thing I'm more concerned about. The body (i.e. muscles and such) may be powerhouses who function 24/7 and no longer need deep rest, it is the mind that still needs the rest. I might rule that a lame oracle no longer needs physical rest: after 15 minutes of chillaxing the spell slots and other dailies (rage, mysteries, others) are returned, but no more than once every ~20 hours. However, the sleep deprivation affects the mind and use the insanity rules.

Isaan Zephyr wrote:

To be honest though, I actually originally tapped into this conversation because I thought Insomniac may have been its own curse. It felt like it could have been, though the closest is a 3rd party one, Waking Dreamer. I think Insomniac might be a cool, if not a tad harsh one.

Like the base is it's difficult for you to sleep, whether due to visions or voices or what have you, so you are perpetually Fatigued and gain only half the benefits from full resting.

5th level you could get some bonus illusion spells, reminescint of hallucinations. Maybe Auditory Hallucination? (A fun spell I love by the way.)

10th you've grown so used to the fatigue that you no longer suffer the ill effects of fatigue.

15th level, you no longer need to sleep, instead at the end of each day you can spend 8 innactive hours performing no more than light activity, but gain the benefits as if you had spent a full day resting (ignoring the penalty from your base curse of course).

This makes a really good and fun oracle curse. It could reallt nicely be combined with a ring of sustenance and just need to chill for about 2 hours :P

EDIT: Either way, with or without the need to sleep, the Oracle can sleep in heavy/medium armor without waking up fagtigued, right?

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