Rogues do insane damage !


General Discussion


In our lvl 14 playtest, one of my players created a level 14 rogue with multi-class in Monk & Fighter.

1 Action - Flurry of Blows (4d10)+ Backstab (5d6) + Dex (5) times 2
28 - 150 dmg from both hits
2 Action - Double Slice (4d8) + Backstab (5d6) + Dex (5) times 2.
28 - 144 dmg from both hits

Crazy damage !
If all 4 hits succeed, and given the first 2 attacks have no penalty, and the 2nd two attacks are only at -4 I believe?
Thats like 56 - 294 Damage LOL

Avg of 175 dmg per round


1 person marked this as a favorite.
orphias wrote:

In our lvl 14 playtest, one of my players created a level 14 rogue with multi-class in Monk & Fighter.

1 Action - Flurry of Blows (4d10)+ Backstab (5d6) + Dex (5) times 2
28 - 150 dmg from both hits
2 Action - Double Slice (4d8) + Backstab (5d6) + Dex (5) times 2.
28 - 144 dmg from both hits

Crazy damage !
If all 4 hits succeed, and given the first 2 attacks have no penalty, and the 2nd two attacks are only at -4 I believe?
Thats like 56 - 294 Damage LOL

Avg of 175 dmg per round

Several things seem wrong here. First of all, lv 14 sneak attack is only 3d6.

Flurry of blows doesn't ignore any penalties. If you use it as your first action, that means your strikes are at +0/-5, and any further attacks that round are at -10. Those reduce to +0/-4/-8 if it's an agile weapon. Let's assume your using one, because you need to be using an agile or finesse weapon for sneak attack.

Double Slice counts both strikes at your current MAP. But it counts as two strikes for your MAP for the rest of the round.

So flurry>>Double Slice = +0/-4/-8/-8,

while double slice>>flurry = +0/+0/-8/-8

Now here's the the other big problem: what the hell weapon are they using? Double Slice only works if they are wielding a weapon in each hand; unarmed strikes don't count as weapons. I don't think there are any weapons that are one handed, deal a d8, have the monk trait for flurry (since I am pretty sure fierce flurry is how you are getting those d10s), and is also agile or finesse.

On top of all that, keep in mind that's using all 3 actions for the round, assuming they hit despite two being at a -8 penalty, and require the enemy to be flat-footed to get flurry. If you're relying on flanking for that, all the enemy has to do is step out of flanking and they've screwed up your routine.


He is wielding an acidic flaming weapon for +2d6 and sneak attack +3d6

I didn't realize Flurry had a multi-attack penalty on the second attack ?


I had assumed he could use his monk attacks with Double slice - but reading the ability I see they have to be weapon attacks.. hmmm


I suggest carefully sitting down and reading the rules with your rogue player.

Rogues in PF2 are pretty good and can deal considerable damage, but they are not as powerful as your first post might indicate, because they're breaking several rules (accidentally I presume).

Edit: Oh yes, on flurry it definitely causes the multiple attack penalty for the second attack made. The main benefit of flurry is making two attacks for 1 action. Most everyone else can only make 1 attack per action. Some classes get abilities that allow them to make two attacks for two actions, but get to ignore the multiple attack penalty if they use that ability before making any other attacks.


Not sure how he is getting a d10 dice on his flurry of blows. If he is using dragon tail he gets neither the dex bonus to dmg or sneak attack.

But yea several things wrong with the math.

A fighter using a falchion and certain strike can do some crazy stuff too.
1st attack 4d10 + 2d6 (enchantment) + 5 (str)
2nd attack 4d10 + 2d6 + 9 (str + forceful)
3rd attack 4d10 + 2d6 + 13
4th attack 4d10 + 2d6 + 13 (from desperate finish)

With 2nd, 3rd and 4th attack doing 15, 19 and 19 on a miss.

All with a higher accuracy than the rogue would have.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Whoa, nice math find on Forceful. I have been discounting it as inconsequential, but adding up the dice and minimums for use with Certain Strike is brilliant. Ignoring what happens with your 1st attack, that's a minimum 53 points of damage that is unstoppable.

To the point of the OP, there are lots of neat rogue builds that look like they do great damage in cool ways. Every time I've built one, I've found a simpler fighter build whose math is superior. Nettah's build is another check for the fighter as the better... well, fighter. That is rightfully so I think.


The DM of wrote:

Whoa, nice math find on Forceful. I have been discounting it as inconsequential, but adding up the dice and minimums for use with Certain Strike is brilliant. Ignoring what happens with your 1st attack, that's a minimum 53 points of damage that is unstoppable.

To the point of the OP, there are lots of neat rogue builds that look like they do great damage in cool ways. Every time I've built one, I've found a simpler fighter build whose math is superior. Nettah's build is another check for the fighter as the better... well, fighter. That is rightfully so I think.

Well the 53 points aren't automatic. You can still crit fail for 0 dmg, but it does help boosting the average dmg output quite a bit.

And rogue can hang in there, but it does seem fair that fighter is generally the superior melee combatant.

The Exchange

Let me get this straight... you're telling us that Rogues do insane damage and then give us an example of a multiclass into two other classes.

Well... that's the same logic of saying Wizards need to be boosted because a burning hands do a pityfull amount of damage when you're level 20!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Let's be nice. Looking for combinations of feats from other classes is a time honored pathfinder way of maximizing effectiveness in certain ways.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

The problem here isn't that rogues do insane damage, the problem is that the math is wrong because it's a clear violation of both the rules as written and the rules as intended.

On top of that while Rogues are in a much better place than they used to be other classes can easily surpass them in combat.


I must admit, I am thankful to everyone that pointed out where both my players and myself had misunderstood the rules. Played as originally posted he was just a tad lethal LOL


Well. With all the updates - he still does impressive damage.
Double slice +0/+0
+4 elven blade (4d8) + (+2d6, Acid, Fire enchantment), +3d6 sneak attack +2d6 bonus sneak dice from rogue feat

Total 4d8 + 7d6 +5 LOL


orphias wrote:

Well. With all the updates - he still does impressive damage.

Double slice +0/+0
+4 elven blade (4d8) + (+2d6, Acid, Fire enchantment), +3d6 sneak attack +2d6 bonus sneak dice from rogue feat

Total 4d8 + 7d6 +5 LOL

To dial it back just a touch, umm, I'm pretty sure there is no feat that gets you +2d6 sneak dice. Not sure where you're getting that.

Also how are you getting d8s while using Double Slice? The only d8 finesse weapon is the Elven Curve Blade which is TWO HANDED. Doesn't work with Double Slice.

Maybe you're using a d8 Monk stance or something.

But anyhow, I suppose you have one of two possibilities:

4d8+2d6+3d6+5, avg. 40.5 per hit.
4d6+2d6+3d6+5, avg. 36.5 per hit.

Compared to, say, a Fighter using a Greatsword with the same enchants.

4d12+2d6+5, avg. 38 per hit.
Pretty close, and doesn't have the dual strike deal of Double Slice, but that's ignoring ANYTHING else Fighter can do for their damage. Heck, the above damage is what ANY Str based class can do with a Greatsword with NO feats. A Barbarian will have higher proficiency (which ups his damage overall because higher accuracy), Rage (which puts his average damage above Rogue), and maybe a combat trick or too.

A Fighter will have much higher proficiency for much more reliable damage and crits, plus various Fighter feats to augment your combat performance.

And these don't need to make you Flat Footed to do it either. Not that Flat Footed is hard to cause...

So while Rogues can make great combatants in PF2, which I love, I think it's safe to say they aren't super ahead of the curve or anything. And this IS with multiple multiclassings, but then again final PF2 Rogue will have TWF support.


I love that the rogue seems to have finally gotten it’s due in PF2. I don’t honestly have much to say here except that when playing one I had noticed that there is a monk stance that totally works with rogue, wolf stance is a D8 finesse weapon with forceful If flanking. It requires some feats and items but is workable if you really want it.

Personally I feel that the rogue feats are good enough that it’s not worth it but others may disagree.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Wolf Stance also gives benefits when flanking. Whether it's better than standard Rogue stuff I'm not sure, but it strikes me as the single best martial multiclass option for a Rogue by quite a bit.

But yeah, Rogues are good in combat, potentially very good, but probably not on par with Fighters.

Dark Archive

Edge93 wrote:
orphias wrote:

Well. With all the updates - he still does impressive damage.

Double slice +0/+0
+4 elven blade (4d8) + (+2d6, Acid, Fire enchantment), +3d6 sneak attack +2d6 bonus sneak dice from rogue feat

Total 4d8 + 7d6 +5 LOL

To dial it back just a touch, umm, I'm pretty sure there is no feat that gets you +2d6 sneak dice. Not sure where you're getting that.

If it is what I’m thinking, the extra 2d6 is not from sneak attack, per se, but it is the level 10 Rogue feat precise debilitations, which has all the requirements for sneak attack but does not interact with feats that require sneak attack.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Narxiso wrote:
If it is what I’m thinking, the extra 2d6 is not from sneak attack, per se, but it is the level 10 Rogue feat precise debilitations, which has all the requirements for sneak attack but does not interact with feats that require sneak attack.

This is correct. It will, however, only apply on some attacks (specifically ones after the first, and that resets if they miss for a round or switch foes).


So. the debilitating strike is a free action. Does that mean you get the +2d6 on the first attack, or only on the 2nd & 3rd attacks ?

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
orphias wrote:
So. the debilitating strike is a free action. Does that mean you get the +2d6 on the first attack, or only on the 2nd & 3rd attacks ?

It's free, but you have to have already hit for it to kick in, so I think the bonus damage is only on subsequent attacks. It does apply until after your next turn, so it effects the next turn's attacks as well, though.

Really, in practice, you get your debilitation effects on every attack after the first that hits, IME.

Paizo Employee Designer

DMW is right. Our rogue in War for the Crown took that and Opportune Backstab, with no regrets. The last encounter they fought an end boss was flying away with low but (I thought) pretty good health left over, until the fighter AoOed it and triggered a successful Opportune Backstab, which together took it down.

Not to downplay the awesome Precise Debilitations at all, but I'll note that Vicious Debilitations is in most cases even more powerful if you're a ruffian and your party members match your damage type (or you use versatile weapons like swords to ensure a match with, say, the archer's piercing damage), since 5 damage to everyone is going to be more than expected 7 to just you unless you represent around 2/3 of the group's weapon damage or just can't match damage types.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Not to downplay the awesome Precise Debilitations at all, but I'll note that Vicious Debilitations is in most cases even more powerful if you're a ruffian and your party members match your damage type (or you use versatile weapons like swords to ensure a match with, say, the archer's piercing damage), since 5 damage to everyone is going to be more than expected 7 to just you unless you represent around 2/3 of the group's weapon damage or just can't match damage types.

I vote this most glorious run on sentence in the history of the playtest! I'm still trying to cipher it out, but I already know it is great and have therefore cast my vote (despite knowing some may not find it as popular), since waiting isn't as accepted in contests such as these over more waiting unless the vote is postponed by two thirds as many days as are votes or you just don't vote.

I'm sorry for being bad.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Playtest / Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion / Rogues do insane damage ! All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion