Incendiary Catalyst... Is this as ridiculous as it seems?


Advice


So I've got quite a bit of experience playing an alchemist and using things such as the hybridization funnel, and the grenadier's alchemical weapon ability, but I just came across this item for the first time while browsing.

Incendiary Catalyst.

Can this be used as part of a full round attack throwing multiple bombs?? Could you simply pass these out to your allies, hold your action to when they throw it on an enemy and then launch bombs at them for double damage?

Pending the enemy definitely has immunity to fire, the amount of extra damage that these would provide per their price is crazy, and the idea of crafting or using any other alchemical weapons seems laughable.

a 12th level tiefling alchemist with FCB & 26 Int score with fast bombs, TWF, rapid shot, and haste could potentially throw 5 bombs in a single round dealing (30d6 +70) x 1.5.

It also would help to preserve more of your bombs per day, simply by destroying everything faster.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's good teamwork, but you are burning a quarter your bombs in one turn that still gets to apply any resistances. And it's not 30d6+70, it's ((6d6+14x1.5)-R)x5, resistance would apply to each bomb, not the total, and at 12th level, it's very possible for resistance to do away with most or all of the bomb damage.


Throwing Bombs is its own full round action, so no you can't switch between bombs and other alchemical weapons.


Val'bryn2 wrote:
It's good teamwork, but you are burning a quarter your bombs in one turn that still gets to apply any resistances. And it's not 30d6+70, it's ((6d6+14x1.5)-R)x5, resistance would apply to each bomb, not the total, and at 12th level, it's very possible for resistance to do away with most or all of the bomb damage.

Right, I was simplifying totals without resistances. But like an average of 52.5 fire damage per bomb, not to mention 63 with a targeted admixture. Even with fire resistances, It's not preventing a ton of damage, and you're virtually guaranteed to hit on all attacks pending a fumble, and your bombs aren't going to be just fire... they'll be nauseating, cursing, and blinding.

Meirril wrote:
Throwing Bombs is its own full round action, so no you can't switch between bombs and other alchemical weapons.

Is this true even with all the FAQs that address bombs as suitable for most ranged weapon feats? With TWF? Fast Bombs locks you into throwing only bombs..? Can a Throwing fighter only throw multiple javelins in a full round attack, and not also throw a dagger or anything else.

You can't tail retrieve or spring-loaded wrist sheath access the catalyst into your hand, throw it as your first attack, then throw 4 bombs while hasted?


You can use twf/rapid shot/etc with fast bombs, but the way fast bombs is written is that it's own full-round action. This means it doesn't allow knoves/shurikens/etc to be thrown as part of the action, if you want to throw bombs yiu have to throw only bombs.

This may not be intended, but it is how it's written. I'd say ask your GM, but as it stands you can't mix bombs and other weapons as part of a full-attack.

FAST BOMBS wrote:
An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon.

And actually while I was copying that text I looked again and now I'm less sure. The last sentence there might contradict what I just said =P

Thoughts?


And actually while I was copying that text I looked again and now I'm less sure. The last sentence there might contradict what I just said =P
Thoughts?

Right?! Luckily I'm not doing PFS and my GM/players are very open to RAI & balancing, but even as a player, I would think we'd be in agreement that there should be no all or nothing with bomb throwing. If you only have 1 bomb left and have 4 attacks in a full round attack action do you just throw a bomb, and then do nothing..? I'd argue that if you have a way to arm yourself via swift actions, quickdraw etc. then you can keep attacking.

Though I might advocate for banning of the catalyst's effect entirely. It's just way too powerful for a ranged touch attack. Unless the BBEG is straight up 100% immune to fire, a wizard, alchemist, cleric and at least..... 1 commoner to the throw the catalyst would destroy him in 1 round.

1 round isn't a lot, but when it's on a ranged touch.... that 50% to all typed damage is so controllable and abusable.


The wording between Bomb Throwing (standard action to throw 1 bomb) and adding Fast Bombs discovery leaves a little bit of a grey area. When it comes to making a full round attack I don't like the idea of giving a character options they didn't start the attack with in hand.

Like some people have argued that they can start a full round attack with a bow in hand, finish all of their iterative attacks, then draw a dagger with their off hand and get one more shot at their full BAB with the TWF -2 being added to this attack only because the character just started using TWF now. Clearly this isn't right, and the argument is just how much of this is not allowed. And my personal stance is you start with what you start with and you can't change up in the middle of your action.

So if you start using a ranged weapon that requires 2 hands, you're 2 hands are occupied for the entire full action. If you are throwing one handed weapons with 2 different hands then you can keep throwing different weapons you can draw for free. If you start off 2 handed throwing 2 handed weapons, I think you're stuck with 2 handers and no off hand attacks. And if you want to drop a ranged weapon as long as you can draw a ranged weapon for free I don't have a problem with you continuing along that path.

Also implied in the action is you are using both hands to actively mix and throw bombs. While it sounds like both hands are occupied you are allowed to use TWF with it. I'd probably compromise and say if you can start with the alchemical weapon in hand it could be your off hand attack. Though if it was your first attack, then aren't you wielding a thrown weapon, so you wouldn't be able to use rapid shot? It isn't like any of your first 3 attacks are significantly different if you use Rapid Fire and TWF together.


Given that it has a one round duration, it seems that it is 100% intended to be the first attack in a full attack routine with Fast Bombs/Rapid Shot/TWF...


Meirril wrote:


Though if it was your first attack, then aren't you wielding a thrown weapon, so you wouldn't be able to use rapid shot? It isn't like any of your first 3 attacks are significantly different if you use Rapid Fire and TWF together.

That is a very good catch. And also seemingly a pretty fair compromise for mechanical balance. You could throw the catalyst, then use all your iterative attacks for bombs, but you wouldn't be able to apply Rapid shot to bombs since your first attack wasn't with one.

Now you could apply rapid shot to splash weapons, but I'm really not sure if there is a way to even equip your hands with enough splash weapons for all your attacks, prior to you initiating the full round attack action.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Advice / Incendiary Catalyst... Is this as ridiculous as it seems? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.