Lvl 5 PC should not be able to bypass DR / Epic


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Dark Archive **** Venture-Agent, Finland—Turku aka Tomppa

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So, from the Martial Arts Handbook:

With the 3 Shikigami Style feats, any improvised weapon can deal damage as if it was 3 sizes bigger (maximum 3d6) and give it an enhancement bonus of +1 per 4 caster levels the item has.

Extemporaneous Channeler (occultist):
As a swift action, you can give an improvised weapon +1 enhancement bonus, +1 per every 4 levels after first. You can give it a special ability too, instead of a bonus. Stacks with other things that give enhancement bonuses to improvised weapons.

At level 5, with 3 feats, and activating the Transformative Resonance, you can turn a single pearl of power (1000gp) or Merciful Metamagic rod (1500gp) into a +5 BANE [that thing I'm trying hit] weapon with base 3d6 damage.

That's a total of +7 ab, 5d6+7 dmg.
Ability score/bab/feats/other powers are not included in that.

That's strictly better than a +5 Flaming Frost Butchering Axe (which would cost 98 000 gp to buy) (apart from the axe having x3 crit, but whatever at this point).

... Could we maybe do a trade? I'd be fine with banning this nonsense instead of the Warrior Poet >.>

Alternatively, this could be restricted by simply limiting the shikigami Manipulation with the price of the magic item used. Say, a maximum of +1 per every 3000gp the item costs, or something.

I do sorta enjoy the idea that this build could slap people around a bit with a +1 Bane Large Trout for 5d6 dmg >.>

***** ⦵⦵

Tying a mechanical effect to caster level (something that largely has no effect or impact on some prices) was a bad, bad idea.

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Tommi Ketonen wrote:


... Could we maybe do a trade? I'd be fine with banning this nonsense instead of the Warrior Poet >.>

Actually having done the math on the archetype it comes out to effectively the same if not weaker than a core occultist wielding a normal weapon.

EDIT:
Yeah your math is really disingenuous and kind of impossible to pull off unless you are min-maxing to your character's detriment. It seems powerful on the surface but the archetype makes it quite obvious that if you try that sort of thing you are basically negating every other single class ability you have.

Dark Archive **** Venture-Agent, Finland—Turku aka Tomppa

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How so? It literally requires nothing but 3 feats and a 1500gp magic item. At that point it's more efficient to grab an axe and swing it by its head, hitting people with the club-like shaft than strike normally. The archetype took one of the most powerful occultist ability and decided that it should be a swift action instead of standard.

Can you show some math where a regular occultist is stronger in melee combat than this archetype which can get the equivalent of a nearly 100k weapon by at lvl 5?

Dark Archive **** Venture-Agent, Finland—Turku aka Tomppa

And the archetype isn't even the worst part. If you want, you could just run the same set up with a regular occultist.


I was very surprised to see this Occultist archetype approved for PFS. But I saw over in the general forums that at least one person who knows the class well was underestimating it, so I had a glimmer of hope. Of course, I don't have the book yet and hadn't even noticed the Shikigami Style feats.

Adam Yakaboski wrote:
Tommi Ketonen wrote:


... Could we maybe do a trade? I'd be fine with banning this nonsense instead of the Warrior Poet >.>

Actually having done the math on the archetype it comes out to effectively the same if not weaker than a core occultist wielding a normal weapon.

EDIT:
Yeah your math is really disingenuous and kind of impossible to pull off unless you are min-maxing to your character's detriment. It seems powerful on the surface but the archetype makes it quite obvious that if you try that sort of thing you are basically negating every other single class ability you have.

How are you negating your utility/buffing focus powers and spells (which is what most Occultist powers/spells are best used as) by investing three feats and buying a cheap item that you can also use for its intended purpose?

Dark Archive **** Venture-Agent, Finland—Turku aka Tomppa

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For a comparison, a regular occultist, let's say armed with a butchering axe, deals 3d6 dmg. Let's give him a +1 butchering axe (despite it not being legal) since we're using a 1500gp magic item ourselves. At this point, it's +4 ab, 3d6 +4 dmg vs +1 ab, 3d6 +1 dmg. We -can- use the transmutation resonant power, but since we can't have it up 24/7, I'll ignore it. The regular occultist can have it, so let's give him +2 str, despite both characters probably having a +2 str belt which the ability does not stack with. Regular occultist is now +2, 3d6+2
Let's give him a weapon focus and power attack and furious focus,

it's now +3, 3d6+4 weapon versus a +4, 3d6+4 weapon.

Difference is the second one bypasses all DR except alignment, and can be give +3 ab, +2d6+3 dmg with a swift action, while the first needs a standard action to activate the legacy weapon.

And, if you like the regular occultist, sure, go with that. The problem isn't the archetype specifically, nor the feats specifically, but the fact that they stack and that there are cheap magic items that have CL 17. It's the combination of things.

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Tommi Ketonen wrote:
Can you show some math where a regular occultist is stronger in melee combat than this archetype which can get the equivalent of a nearly 100k weapon by at lvl 5?

Easy. Assuming an intelligence of 14 at level 5 you'll have 9 focus points. In order to activate your supposed cheese 6 or even 7 of those points doing absolutely nothing meaning that you only have 2 focus points to invest in implements.

Quote:
We -can- use the transmutation resonant power, but since we can't have it up 24/7, I'll ignore it.

Nope. You can't. You can't even activate the transmutation resonant power. Not if you want your "cheese" to go off more than once. The reason why your so confused is that it relies on an aspect of the Occultist that I don't many people use because its kind of useless. Seriously, show me the exact focus point build out that you would have on such a character rather than just show me the math.

Scarab Sages ****

If I understand it correctly, the difference between transformative resonance and a regular resonance power is that the bonus you get from it is reduced the more of your generic mental focus you spend? So if you start with 7, spend 1 to get the bonus for a minute, you get a +2 equivalent bonus. Spend another one, and you can only get a +1, since you only have 5 generic resonance left? Is that correct?

Whereas something like legacy weapon is based off how much mental focus you put into your transmutation implement for the day, and the bonus doesn’t change until you’ve spent all of that mental focus for the day.

I can see that being limiting enough for the archetype to stay legal.

The real issue is Shikigami Manipulation, for the reasons pointed out. I think limiting the bonus an item can grant based on the cost of the item is a reasonable clarification. Something I’ve seen suggested is 2,500gp value per +1, though even that might be a little on the cheap side the higher up you go.

Honestly, I’d take Shikigami Manipulation even if all it did was increase the damage die another step and it didn’t grant an enhancement bonus at all.

As a side note, can Monk of the Empty Hand get a clarification to work like Improvisational Combatant from Extemporaneous Channeler?

Improvisational Combatant wrote:
An extemporaneous channeler does not incur any penalties for using an improvised weapon. She is considered to have the Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything feats for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.

That would clear up a lot of confusion around the archetype, which right now is designed to use improvised weapons but never says it removes the penalty for doing so.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

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So...

How about that +4 weapon for 1500 gp?

Scarab Sages ****

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Yeah, that should get clarified away by placing some kind of cost requirement on the item in order to get the full bonus from it. I don’t think there’s much of an argument against that being overpowered.

There’s even a +4 for 25gp with the dull grey ioun stone. I would throw those like sling stones and not even care if the GM ruled they were destroyed in the process.

Dark Archive

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Ferious Thune wrote:

The real issue is Shikigami Manipulation, for the reasons pointed out. I think limiting the bonus an item can grant based on the cost of the item is a reasonable clarification. Something I’ve seen suggested is 2,500gp value per +1, though even that might be a little on the cheap side the higher up you go.

Honestly, I’d take Shikigami Manipulation even if all it did was increase the damage die another step and it didn’t grant an enhancement bonus at all.

I would be fine with limiting the Manipulation feat like this as well. What you could do is just have the magic item give an enhancement bonus based on the price of enhancement bonuses on magic weapons. Now there is a significant cost to getting access to this enhancement bonus like with weapons.

Example: Shoes of the Firewalker are 21,000gp so since a +3 magic weapon is 18,000gp, they can give a +3 enhancement bonus.

The only reason I'm using Manipulation on my stiletto character is for the bump in damage.


Ferious Thune wrote:

If I understand it correctly, the difference between transformative resonance and a regular resonance power is that the bonus you get from it is reduced the more of your generic mental focus you spend? So if you start with 7, spend 1 to get the bonus for a minute, you get a +2 equivalent bonus. Spend another one, and you can only get a +1, since you only have 5 generic resonance left? Is that correct?

Whereas something like legacy weapon is based off how much mental focus you put into your transmutation implement for the day, and the bonus doesn’t change until you’ve spent all of that mental focus for the day.

Legacy Weapon: Requires selection of a transmutation implement. Uses are limited by focus invested into your transmutation implement. Duration is 1 minute per use. Bonus is scaled at +1 +1/6 levels (max +4 at 18th level). Standard action.

Transformative Resonance: Available to all Occultists regardless of implements chosen. Uses are limited by amount of generic focus in your body. Duration is 1 minute per use. Bonus is scaled at +1 +1/4 levels (max +5 at 17th level), but is also limited to 1/3 of the amount of generic focus in your body. Swift action.

So TR has a usability advantage (more per day, no implement requirement), it's a push on duration (1 minute for both), it scales faster and more (but is constrained by your available generic focus that you'll deplete throughout the day), and it's faster to use (swift action vs. standard action).

Since Bane is the dominant use and is only a +1 bonus, neither LW's slower scaling nor TR's focus limitation matter much once you have a magic weapon, which is easy for standard Occultists but for improvised weapons seems easily available only through Gloves of Improvised Might (not PFS legal), Magic Weapon as your 1st level transmutation implement spell, or the third Shikigami feat. So the additional flexible uses and greatly improved action economy are pretty dominant.

Of course if you can't get that first +1 (hard to do in PFS) then at 5th level the Extemporaneous Channeler really doesn't want to dip below 6 focus. So since Gloves of Improvised Might aren't allowed and the number and duration of Magic Weapon spell slots are low, you're pretty forced into the Shikigami chain if you want to take advantage of how Transformative Resonance can outperform Legacy Weapon.

And the "pick a spell" replacements for magic circles are, uh, not exactly bad.

Scarab Sages ****

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Gloves of Improvised Might are legal as of this last AR update (and were meant to be before that).


Ferious Thune wrote:
Gloves of Improvised Might are legal as of this last AR update (and were meant to be before that).

Cool, I was just going by Archives of Nethys.

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Kevin Willis wrote:

So...

How about that +4 weapon for 1500 gp?

In the grand scheme of things it's pretty mediocre. It's not even a fun sort of broken that exists in PFS.

Scarab Sages ****

I forgot about the level restriction on legacy weapon. That seems a fair way to restrict Extemporaneous Channeler via clarification.

***** ⦵⦵

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Ferious Thune wrote:

There’s even a +4 for 25gp with the dull grey ioun stone. I would throw those like sling stones and not even care if the GM ruled they were destroyed in the process.

No, a cruel DM would say you throw it, it tries to orbit your head, and winds up smacking you in the face. It deals WHAT kind of damage? 3d6+4? OUCH!

:)

Scarab Sages ****

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The character has an 8 Int, so he does fit the “dull” part of the stone. He might even try throwing a second one.

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Ferious Thune wrote:
I forgot about the level restriction on legacy weapon. That seems a fair way to restrict Extemporaneous Channeler via clarification.

It doesn't need restriction. The fact that you can't do anything else as an Occultist with that ability is a restriction. Unless your talking about Shikigami style which isn't a bad way to "fix" it.


Adam Yakaboski wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
I forgot about the level restriction on legacy weapon. That seems a fair way to restrict Extemporaneous Channeler via clarification.
It doesn't need restriction. The fact that you can't do anything else as an Occultist with that ability is a restriction.

You can do plenty. You only want Bane, so it's usable until you drop down to 3 points of generic focus. You get extra focus. And since the most important thing most Occultists want to do in combat is Legacy Weapon, you're not forgoing anything by using a better (because faster) version of Legacy Weapon. Once you're down to 3 points of generic focus, you can just...invest it your transmutation implement and use Legacy Weapon on a simple weapon.

I'll also note that this archetype is a perfect match for the Implement Focus feat - spend your generic focus directly on your favorite implement focus powers when needed without any penalty. Since most resonant powers are bad or just money savers and this archetype is bad at resonant powers, spend a feat or two on your combat important implements (abjuration for damage soaking, divination for attack/save boosts, conjuration for summon/mobility, or transmutation for lots of buffs) and keep everything in generic focus except when performing out of combat utility powers.

With the investment of a couple of feats you can never worry about overinvesting (or wasting a round to invest) in combat, allowing you to effectively use all of your extra focus every day. This option does, of course, slow or conflict with heavy use of Shikigami style, which isn't a bad thing.

Scarab Sages ****

Adam Yakaboski wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
I forgot about the level restriction on legacy weapon. That seems a fair way to restrict Extemporaneous Channeler via clarification.
It doesn't need restriction. The fact that you can't do anything else as an Occultist with that ability is a restriction. Unless your talking about Shikigami style which isn't a bad way to "fix" it.

I think whether or not Extemporaneous Channeler needs limited is part of what is being debated here. The Extemporaneous Channeler ability does have its tradeoffs, clearly. That's not really the issue. The issue is that it (especially when stacking with other abilities) allows you to achieve things at a much lower level than they are otherwise attainable in the game. For example, a 22 INT 4th level occultist can get the benefit of a +3 enhancement on top of everything else they have. True it might only be for 1 minute, but in PFS, that becomes a save for the big fight ability and less of an issue.

With a +1 and +1 at 5th, 9th, etc. (or whatever legacy weapon is), you do two things. You prevent any unforeseen abuse like a single level dip in occultist allowing an extra +2 enhancement on an already powerful build (ghost touch and bane at the same time, for example), and you encourage players to put points back into their implements, because there's limited benefit that they can get by keeping them as generic focus points.

I do think it's a possible fix for Shikigami Manipulation as well, and maybe even a better fit there.


Ferious Thune wrote:

]

I think whether or not Extemporaneous Channeler needs limited is part of what is being debated here. The Extemporaneous Channeler ability does have its tradeoffs, clearly. That's not really the issue. The issue is that it (especially when stacking with other abilities) allows you to achieve things at a much lower level than they are otherwise attainable in the game. For example, a 22 INT 4th level occultist can get the benefit of a +3 enhancement on top of everything else they have.

You can’t do that. It has two constrainsts: you have to have three times your plus in generic focus after you spend a point (your +3 if you have 10 points example) but you ALSO have a level limit. +1 at 1st, +2 at 5th, +3 at 9th, +4 at 13th, +5 at 17th.

The issue is the last Shikigami feat both in isolation and in combination with this.

Scarab Sages ****

Oh, well that level limit was what I was suggesting get added. Since it’s already there, no need! I don’t see as much of an issue with the ability, then. Possibly a clarification so it doesn’t stack with other items/abilities, if it’s deemed that it needs limited.

Shikigami Manipulation definitely needs limited, as noted above. The level limit from legacy weapon/extemporaneous Channeler would be a good option. Or the cost related options discussed here. Or a combination of both.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

There's precedent for the sort of limit we'd need for Shikigami Manipulation. Alchemical Allocation was nerfed a bit so that I can no longer Infusion-feed my CL 15 potion of Stoneskin to the entire party.

*****

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Shikigami Manipulation wrote:
Benefit: While using Shikigami Style, you can treat any magical item you’re using as an improvised weapon as if it granted an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the item’s caster level divided by 4 (minimum +1), to a maximum bonus of +5.
There I Fixed It wrote:
Benefit: While using Shikigami Style, you can treat any magical item you’re using as an improvised weapon as if it granted an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the item’s caster level divided by 4, to a maximum bonus of 1/4 of your character level (minimum +1).

Dark Archive *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

I'm going to catch flak for this, but...

I don't think Shikigami Manipulation works the way people are saying it does. I think it works similar to the ways bows work, in that the enhancement bonus is strictly to attack and damage and does not gauge what sort of DR the weapon bypasses. The feat specifically calls out that it grants an enhancement bonus to attack and damage, not a flat enhancement bonus. So the same way an arrow fired from a +3 bow does not automatically bypass DR/Cold Iron, a dull grey ioun stone would not automatically bypass DR/Adamantine.

It's still a good feat tree, and I'm looking forward to making a character built around it, but it doesn't seem as broken as people are making it out to be.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

So you're drawing a distinction between a weapon that "has" an enhancement bonus (which is applied to hit and damage), and an improvised shikigami weapon that applies it to hit and damage but doesn't quite "have" it? That's awfully fine reading. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's obscure enough that we need a clarification just to you know, make that clear.

***** ⦵⦵

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Keirine, Human Rogue wrote:

I'm going to catch flak for this, but...

I don't think Shikigami Manipulation works the way people are saying it does. I think it works similar to the ways bows work, in that the enhancement bonus is strictly to attack and damage and does not gauge what sort of DR the weapon bypasses.

The title of the thread aside, even IF this level of rules lawyering is true, you are getting way, way too much benefit out of these feats with +4 or +5 to hit and damage off of some fairly cheap magic items.

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Ferious Thune wrote:
Adam Yakaboski wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
I forgot about the level restriction on legacy weapon. That seems a fair way to restrict Extemporaneous Channeler via clarification.
It doesn't need restriction. The fact that you can't do anything else as an Occultist with that ability is a restriction. Unless your talking about Shikigami style which isn't a bad way to "fix" it.
I think whether or not Extemporaneous Channeler needs limited is part of what is being debated here. The Extemporaneous Channeler ability does have its tradeoffs, clearly. That's not really the issue. The issue is that it (especially when stacking with other abilities) allows you to achieve things at a much lower level than they are otherwise attainable in the game.

Have you ever actually established that your issue is even a criteria to be banned? My general experience with PFS points to a mixed bag and this isn't even the most egregious case.

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Ferious Thune wrote:
Adam Yakaboski wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
I forgot about the level restriction on legacy weapon. That seems a fair way to restrict Extemporaneous Channeler via clarification.
It doesn't need restriction. The fact that you can't do anything else as an Occultist with that ability is a restriction. Unless your talking about Shikigami style which isn't a bad way to "fix" it.
I think whether or not Extemporaneous Channeler needs limited is part of what is being debated here. The Extemporaneous Channeler ability does have its tradeoffs, clearly. That's not really the issue. The issue is that it (especially when stacking with other abilities) allows you to achieve things at a much lower level than they are otherwise attainable in the game.

Have you ever actually established that your issue is even a criteria to be banned? My general experience with PFS points to a mixed bag in that they lean towards allowing content that seems broken.

Scarab Sages ****

I didn’t raise the subject, but things that break wealth by level are often targets of clarifications or removed from legality.

I don’t have an issue with Extenporaneous Channeler anymore, since the limit I’m asking for in what you quoted is already part of the ability.

I do think that Shikigami Manipulation should be limited in some way, as a +4 weapon for 25gp (ioun stone) throws off the wealth by level curve. As would a +4 weapon for 1500 (rod), which almost certainly would also be dealing 3d6.

I would hate to see Shikigami Manipulation banned entirely, because I think it’s worth the feat just for the additional size increase, without even taking into account the enhancement bonus.

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Ferious Thune wrote:

I didn’t raise the subject, but things that break wealth by level are often targets of clarifications or removed from legality.

Even breaking wealth by level isn't really an immediate cause for a ban.

Scarab Sages ****

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Adam Yakaboski wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:

I didn’t raise the subject, but things that break wealth by level are often targets of clarifications or removed from legality.

Even breaking wealth by level isn't really an immediate cause for a ban.

This is a particularly obvious and extreme case. 1,500gp for a +4 weapon is saving 30,500 gold.

There are limited abilities that can boost a weapon to +4 at 5th level (Bane, Arcane Pool, etc.), but not until you have a +2 weapon. The earliest that can happen without appearing on a chronicle is at 27 fame/14 XP, and even then costs 6,500+ more gold. Shikigami Manipulation has no limited uses per day. It’s just a flat out constant enhancement bonus for the item.

Yes, it takes four feats to get there. But it’s not like those feats are doing nothing in the meantime. They’re taking a 1d4 Weapon with a -4 to-hit and turning it into a 2D6 Weapon with no penalty to hit. Or a D6 weapon to 3D6. The virtual size increase alone is worth the feats. Before you even start to look at the enhancement bonus.

I’m not advocating a ban of Shikigami Mimicry. I like the chain of feats and plan to use them on a character. But the enhancement bonus part of it is so far out of line with other abilities that it really does need to be limited. I’d rather see it limited by level or cost than see the whole feat, or worse the whole feat chain, banned.

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Ferious Thune wrote:
Adam Yakaboski wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:

I didn’t raise the subject, but things that break wealth by level are often targets of clarifications or removed from legality.

Even breaking wealth by level isn't really an immediate cause for a ban.

This is a particularly obvious and extreme case. 1,500gp for a +4 weapon is saving 30,500 gold.

That's more or less the same amount of gold that a normal Occultist saves mid level.

Scarab Sages ****

How so? Legacy Weapon? That requires a standard action and use of a limited resource (mental focus) for a limit amount of time. The resonant power saves them on a stat boost item, but again, that is limited by level. You can only get a +2 up until 6th, then you can get a +4. That’s still only saving 16,000 gold. You can’t get a +6 until 12th level. Even if you count the difference between a +4/+4 belt and a single stat +4 belt, you’re still only saving 24,000 gold. And that’s limited to a specific class using their major class feature and remaining in that class for at least 6 levels. Not a feat chain that is open to anyone.

But Occultist does kind of ignore some previously established limits. Legacy Weapon was the first ability (that I can think of) to allow adding any enhancement to a weapon, not just picking from a limited list. That was a major step up in power level. So much so that some subsequent options that do something similar are not legal (Warrior’s Spirit). Finding the thing that is already outside the normal limits and then exceeding that is not really a good reason to allow the new, even more powerful thing.

I’d like a clarification of Manipulation so that we don’t get a ban of it a month from now after everyone starts abusing it.

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Quote:
So much so that some subsequent options that do something similar are not legal (Warrior’s Spirit).

That's because its a full BAB class and doesn't really need it. And by your criteria there should be feats from that book that should be banned but aren't because they literally are have a free 4000GP item.

Scarab Sages ****

You'll have to be more specific on what feats you are talking about, because I'm not aware of any that grant items.

If you mean feats granting abilities equivalent to items, that's not unusual. A feat is valued anywhere from 8,000gp to 30,000gp in terms of items which are available that directly grant a feat. But that's different than what Shikigami Manipulation is doing, as it directly modifies a weapon while in use, not making you better at using it. Armor Focus, for example, give a +1 when wearing armor, which could mean anywhere from a 1,000 gold savings to much more than that, depending on what your armor bonus is at. What it doesn't do is add a +1 to your armor allowing you to spend your gold on special abilities instead of an armor bonus and get them cheaper than you would normally.

Please note, for the third or fourth time, that I'm not asking for the feat to be banned. I'm afraid that is going to be the eventual result if no viable alternative is suggested to limit its power. When enough GMs start complaining about +4 weapons showing up on characters in tier 1-5 scenarios, the feat will end up banned without someone suggesting a reasonable option.

Liberty's Edge *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I mean, as it is I have a buddy who is likely to use the chain, though admittedly I hadn't thought of the level of cheese in here and was more just excited to get a tag team partner to pair with my Lifting Hand Monk >.>

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Agent, France—Paris

+4 weapons available for everybody shouldn't even have been there in the first place. Already prepping my grievance paper if I ever GM for such a character. Nerf or bust.

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Philippe Lam wrote:
+4 weapons available for everybody shouldn't even have been there in the first place.

Yeah but this goes back to my original question as to whether it not your criteria is actually what PFS uses. It's why I said earlier it's not even a fun type of broken as a +4 weapon isn't going to wreck havoc with scenario balance as having access to teleport or flight which you can do so easily that it often makes me think it's deliberate. I only day this as someone who didn't realize at the time they were casting what were fifth level spells at level 1.

Scarab Sages ****

I’d again ask you to be more specific about what abilities you are referencing. I’m not aware of anything that would let someone cast teleport at 1st level. For fly, the only thing I can think of is a potion or scroll, which is a limited use item and a significant portion of a character’s wealth at 1st level.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Agent, France—Paris

Adam Yakaboski wrote:
Yeah but this goes back to my original question as to whether it not your criteria is actually what PFS uses. It's why I said earlier it's not even a fun type of broken as a +4 weapon isn't going to wreck havoc with scenario balance as having access to teleport or flight which you can do so easily that it often makes me think it's deliberate. I only day this as someone who didn't realize at the time they were casting what were fifth level spells at level 1.

I don't care an eye bat about the circumstances or whether it's fun. An easy +4 for everybody is still a no.

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Ferious Thune wrote:
I’d again ask you to be more specific about what abilities you are referencing. I’m not aware of anything that would let someone cast teleport at 1st level. For fly, the only thing I can think of is a potion or scroll, which is a limited use item and a significant portion of a character’s wealth at 1st level.

Flight is Flesheater Barbarian which gains it at level 2. You have to eat a bird with a fly speed but that isn't as hard as it sounds. As for the teleport that's the First World Minstrel which I tend to go back and forth on how broken it is as there is a degree of guessing what ability an ally would need as opposed to a static increase in damage and attack.

Also, just as a heads up having seen improvised weapon builds at work the hypothetical 3d6 is just weird theory crafting. Even adding the +4 to attack and damage it still is really a horrible investment in feats.

Scarab Sages ****

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Flesh eater... yeah, that one is interesting. It’s limited to rounds of rage (I think, if I’m reading it right), but still pretty powerful for 2nd level.

First World Minstrel... Do you mean by way of giving themselves Long Step? That is far from equivalent to the teleport spell. Yes, they “teleport,” 10 feet at 1st level after spending a standard to use the performance and a move action to actually move. That’s more in line with the Travel domain or Teleport subschool abilities than with the spell teleport.

Dark Archive

Philippe Lam wrote:
+4 weapons available for everybody shouldn't even have been there in the first place. Already prepping my grievance paper if I ever GM for such a character. Nerf or bust.
Philippe Lam wrote:
I don't care an eye bat about the circumstances or whether it's fun. An easy +4 for everybody is still a no.

Dude, how is this a +4 weapon for everybody? You have to take the feats(4 feats to do this) for it, be 5th level, spend the 5 skill points for ranks in UMD, and most of the item choices I've seen people talking about wouldn't even work as weapons to begin with.

I've seen a lot of people assuming that just because something is halfway possible that it means everyone will choose to do it.

Yes the feats could've had a few more regulations, but this is far from game breaking.

***** ⦵⦵

Zero the Nothing wrote:
Philippe Lam wrote:
+4 weapons available for everybody shouldn't even have been there in the first place. Already prepping my grievance paper if I ever GM for such a character. Nerf or bust.
Philippe Lam wrote:
I don't care an eye bat about the circumstances or whether it's fun. An easy +4 for everybody is still a no.

Dude, how is this a +4 weapon for everybody? You have to take the feats(4 feats to do this) for it, be 5th level, spend the 5 skill points for ranks in UMD, and most of the item choices I've seen people talking about wouldn't even work as weapons to begin with.

I've seen a lot of people assuming that just because something is halfway possible that it means everyone will choose to do it.

Yes the feats could've had a few more regulations, but this is far from game breaking.

Well obviously blasto the wizard won't be taking the feat chain, but between the size increases, greater hit and greater static damage I think every melee fighter should be taking this. It's better than weapon focus and weapon specialization, greater focus and greater specialization: four other feats that are fighter only.

Having to take 5 ranks in what is arguably the most powerful skill in the game (doubly so with PFSs magicmart) isn't exactly a drawback

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Agent, France—Paris

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Zero the Nothing wrote:
Philippe Lam wrote:
+4 weapons available for everybody shouldn't even have been there in the first place. Already prepping my grievance paper if I ever GM for such a character. Nerf or bust.
Philippe Lam wrote:
I don't care an eye bat about the circumstances or whether it's fun. An easy +4 for everybody is still a no.

Dude, how is this a +4 weapon for everybody? You have to take the feats(4 feats to do this) for it, be 5th level, spend the 5 skill points for ranks in UMD, and most of the item choices I've seen people talking about wouldn't even work as weapons to begin with.

I've seen a lot of people assuming that just because something is halfway possible that it means everyone will choose to do it.

Yes the feats could've had a few more regulations, but this is far from game breaking.

The relative cost is far too low for the performance the thing gives, so I will stand by my statement it is overpowered.

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Ferious Thune wrote:


First World Minstrel... Do you mean by way of giving themselves Long Step? That is far from equivalent to the teleport spell. Yes, they “teleport,” 10 feet at 1st level after spending a standard to use the performance and a move action to actually move. That’s more in line with the Travel domain or Teleport subschool abilities than with the spell teleport.

No. That's initially what I thought but then I realized that its basically a slightly depowered Dimension Door with added abilities that makes it even more useful. Its definitely RAW a tier 7-11 ability that is immanently exploitable at lower levels.

Quote:

Having to take 5 ranks in what is arguably the most powerful skill in the game (doubly so with PFSs magicmart) isn't exactly a drawback

Its five ranks on something that requires a ridiculous amount of investment for you to be competent with. On most martial characters its trash.

*** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Ferious Thune wrote:


First World Minstrel... Do you mean by way of giving themselves Long Step? That is far from equivalent to the teleport spell. Yes, they “teleport,” 10 feet at 1st level after spending a standard to use the performance and a move action to actually move. That’s more in line with the Travel domain or Teleport subschool abilities than with the spell teleport.

No. That's initially what I thought but then I realized that its basically a slightly depowered Dimension Door with added abilities that makes it even more useful. Its definitely RAW a tier 7-11 ability that is immanently exploitable at lower levels.

Quote:

Having to take 5 ranks in what is arguably the most powerful skill in the game (doubly so with PFSs magicmart) isn't exactly a drawback

Its five ranks on something that requires a ridiculous amount of investment for you to be competent with. On most martial characters its trash. Also being better than those feats in its entirety is kind of a massive issue with the Fighter and not that feat chain. The go to feat of every single Brawler is essentially weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, and a bunch of other unique abilities for the cost of one feat.

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