Seen another way, it has managed to defeat one of its enemies in detail and to box another quite well in.
...
No, pretty sure it barely managed to crush a massive internal insurrection that came out of seemingly nowhere (it's not concretely rooted in any of Cheliax's already-established enemy nations) with considerable loss of life, territory, and prestige, primarily by relying upon a band of mercenary opportunists, while having to allow a traditionally uppity province to out and out leave with a smile and a formal agreement.
That's not interpretation. That's what happened.
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Seen another way, it has managed to defeat one of its enemies in detail and to box another quite well in....
No, pretty sure it barely managed to crush a massive internal insurrection that came out of seemingly nowhere (it's not concretely rooted in any of Cheliax's already-established enemy nations) with considerable loss of life, territory, and prestige, primarily by relying upon a band of mercenary opportunists, while having to allow a traditionally uppity province to out and out leave with a smile and a formal agreement.
That's not interpretation. That's what happened.
Most insurrections depend on local support far more than foreign patronage. And many are surprising. Doesn't mean this particular one is any less definitively put down.
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Most insurrections depend on local support far more than foreign patronage. And many are surprising. Doesn't mean this particular one is any less definitively put down.
Also doesn't mean it wasn't a devastating reality check for Cheliax.
As "wins" go, it didn't even restore the status quo ante.
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I am really unclear on how one could structure a revolution that is not led by 3-6 high level and well-equipped people imbued with uncommon agency in a game that evolved from Dungeons and Dragons.
Like if you want something like what happened in Andoran, that's a tie-in novel not an adventure path.
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I wonder what proportion of people running Hell's Vengeance did some houseruling along the lines of victorious post-WotR characters* thinking "hey, the Worldwound's closed, what would be the next best bit of Avistan to fix?" I appreciate that doing that officially would be counter to the policy of making all the APs as independent as possible, but it really seems acryingly obvious cross-connection.*Major NPCs, anyway. Victorious post-WotR PCs seem likely to have mopped up House Thrune much more efficiently. If I ever get to run Wrath of the Righteous I would be extremely tempted to give it a Bolivian Army ending and not actually play out the final, post-campaign-goal-resolution fight.
Sarkoris is still full of demons after the Worldwound is closed, the WotR NPCs have their hands full dealing with that. At least some of the ones who leave will end up in Tanglebriar, putting their existing demon-fighting skill set to use. Or they'll reinforce Lastwall. Seems like it could use the help.
Furthermore, the Mendevian Crusaders generally seem orthodox in their dogma and priorities, not ones to back heretics like the Glorious Reclamation (especially after they go down in defeat). Overall, I would not expect a great number of Worldwound veterans to make their way to Cheliax. Those that do would be operating as little cells, not as a great party, and can be assumed to be of negligable impact.
WotR's PCs are almost certainly plane-hopping the way they were doing for the last three books of that AP, beyond the concerns of the mortal world.
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I am really unclear on how one could structure a revolution that is not led by 3-6 high level and well-equipped people imbued with uncommon agency in a game that evolved from Dungeons and Dragons.
Like if you want something like what happened in Andoran, that's a tie-in novel not an adventure path.
Actually, could we move this in-depth discussion of Chelish politics to the Hell's Rebels thread?
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I loved Second Darkness as a player. Had a fantastic GM who did characters and voices and everything. Great time.
I thought Council of Thieves was a lot of fun with all the Pathfinder Society lodge tie-ins.
Serpent's Skull had a great story and some epic fights.
So I guess I'm the only one who liked them, from what I've been reading.
I acutally enjoyed playing Second Darkness quite a bit. This is probably mostly due to the GM and our group making the best of it. It does have some issues. There is the point where Riddleport is this interesting fun pirate hive of scum and villainy that is a nice rich setting... and then you leave in the second book, never to return. Some aspects can be unpleasant for many people, the Drow are really nasty. Our GM emphasized this, and I think it helped provide motivation, but this isn't for everyone. There is the point of elves in generally being unfavorably portrayed, but I'm not sure that's really such a bad thing. Elves do have issues, they're often xenophobic jerks who look down upon everyone else, and don't really give much of a damn about the rest of the world, and have a strong sense of entitlement. I mean they are alien invaders from another planet, established a kingdom, left the world to die when Earthfall happened, and then came back and were really upset about people living in the place they abandoned for millennia and took some of the stuff that was left behind. They don't even let many Golarion natives into their country, and when they do it's as second class citizens. I don't think highlighting that is really a problem, especially since part of this is a power struggle between the jerk elves and nicer ones, and you help the good ones. Like everything else, your mileage will vary.
Wrath of the Righteous was the best time I've had with Pathfinder. The power level can be nuts, and it does seem clear that they really didn't have a good hold of the implications of mythic when making these encounters (Beyond Morality is amazingly powerful in this AP. Every PC took it and avoided so many Chaos Hammers, Blasphemies, etc. If any of the bad guys had it, it would completely nerf Paladin's Smite Evil ability and holy weapons. Mirror Dodge is really tough to get around and Foe Biter can lead to insane damage. Our archer paladin had Foe Biter on a legendary bow, and along with other abilities this let him take out a super powerful, mythic linorn in one round. Like over 1000 points of damage. The GM will never let him live that down). It's certainly an AP for you to be Big Damn Heroes. The writing and plot is great. The main problem is the power level might not be your thing, and it can be tamped down. Or you can just embrace the crazy over the top nature, which is what we did. The GM tried buffing enemies, but we often still roflstomped them. I remember one fight near the end where the villain was dropping like 3 Miracles a round. I found it fun, but not everyone would. So again, mileage may vary.
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Folks, Zimmerwald is salty abut the fact that Hell's Rebels isn't about a communist revolution of downtrodden serfs and workers. He thinks Paizo fails to make their APs "Medieval society simulators except PCs are Karl Marx / Vladimir Lenin with fireballs and should be turning Golarion country by country into a communist utopia minus death camps. Except for Lumber Consortium, they deserve a death camp. Maybe even two."
It's been going on for years and I'm not really seeing much of a chance for going differently this time round.
Well, now I have a character concept for my next Wizard. Karl Marx with fireballs... someone finally sold me on a Galt AP.
Well, a Galt module, maybe.
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Folks, Zimmerwald is salty abut the fact that Hell's Rebels isn't about a communist revolution of downtrodden serfs and workers. He thinks Paizo fails to make their APs "Medieval society simulators except PCs are Karl Marx / Vladimir Lenin with fireballs and should be turning Golarion country by country into a communist utopia minus death camps. Except for Lumber Consortium, they deserve a death camp. Maybe even two."
It's been going on for years and I'm not really seeing much of a chance for going differently this time round.
Well, now I have a character concept for my next Wizard. Karl Marx with fireballs... someone finally sold me on a Galt AP.
Well, a Galt module, maybe.
The actual Karl Marx who somehow got time traveled and transported to Golarion? :D
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The actual Karl Marx who somehow got time traveled and transported to Golarion? :DFolks, Zimmerwald is salty abut the fact that Hell's Rebels isn't about a communist revolution of downtrodden serfs and workers. He thinks Paizo fails to make their APs "Medieval society simulators except PCs are Karl Marx / Vladimir Lenin with fireballs and should be turning Golarion country by country into a communist utopia minus death camps. Except for Lumber Consortium, they deserve a death camp. Maybe even two."
It's been going on for years and I'm not really seeing much of a chance for going differently this time round.
Well, now I have a character concept for my next Wizard. Karl Marx with fireballs... someone finally sold me on a Galt AP.
Well, a Galt module, maybe.
Why reach back that far? 4715 is 1920 on Earth - perhaps the martyrs of the January Uprising didn't die, but were whisked away to Golarion and their bodies replaced by simulacra? ;)
Ah, there's a thought. Anastasia Romanov and Rosa Luxemburg meet on a Nirmathi crossroads. . .
I apologize for starting the Hell's Rebels tangent in the "Worst Adventure Paths" thread, since I consider HR to be the best adventure path.
I was merely using it as an example in parallel with Council of Thieves, to make a point about Hell's Vengeance (which I dislike).