Do variable modifiers change as their conditions change? (re: Dire Griffon)


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Hello, long time player here and pretty good at the Google and searching the forums. I searched high and low but could not find anything relating to this.

1) In Wrath of the Righteous, the Dire Griffon says "Discard this card to explore your location. For each of your mythic charges, add 2 to your combat checks during the exploration."

My question is, if my number of charges changes during the exploration (for example if I have multiple combat checks that I spend them on), will the combat bonus change with it? Or is it locked in when I play the Griffon?

This relates to the next question...

2) A more general question: At what step of a check do dynamic / variable modifiers "lock in" to their final value?

For example, I have 6 mythic charges and attempt a combat check. The steps are:
1. Determine the skill: I have Holy Radiance, which says "For your combat check, reveal this card to use your Strength or Melee skill + 1d8 plus your number of Mythic Charges;..." My skill will be Strength.

2. Determine the difficulty. (nothing special happens).

3. Play cards and powers that affect the check:

I play Holy Radiance. Strength (d12) + 1d8 + 6, b/c I have 6 charges.

I play my Mythic Path power to add my number of mythic charges to my combat check. Right now, that is 6.

Then, I spend 2 mythic charges to change my dice into d20s. Now I have 4 charges.

4. Assemble your dice: I have 2d20.

5. Attempt the roll: I roll 2d20 and add ___?

To review, Holy Radiance adds 6 when played, or 4 in step 5.
My Mythic Path adds 6 when played, or 4 in step 5.
So if modifiers are locked when played, then I get (6+6) = 12.
If they're figured in step 5, I get (4+4) = 8.

What do you all think?

Thank you!


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Good one.

1)
We've always played that allies that you discard to explore and that give a bonus during that exploration should be read as:

"Display this card to explore your location.
While displayed, for you combat check, add 2 for each of your mythic charges.
At the end of the exploration, discard this card"

This way it's clear that it's the number of mythic charge you have when using the displayed power (step 3).

2)
In step 3, you play the powers affecting the order that you want, as long as legal.
Each evaluate the number of Mythic charges at the time they are played.
Note that sometimes you need to play one card (e. g. to add a trait to the check) before you can play another.


We played it like Frencois. To expand on his statement and your process. Burning the Mythic charges happens after your value is set, after you assemble your dice.

So for your first combat you would have: Melee Skill + 1d8 + 6 (bonus of Mythic charges from the sword) + 6 (Mythic Path) + 12 (Mythic charges from Griffon. Then convert two of highest die to d20s for burning two charges.

If the Monster had a second combat check it would be: Melee Skill + 1d8 + 4 (bonus of Mythic charges from the sword) + 4 (Mythic Path) + 8 (Mythic charges from Griffon). When you assemble your dice you could burn more charges for d20s.

I have a better question. Do you really need to burn mythic charges on your first roll? Or you fighting a villain? Because with a typical melee skill is +2, so at set 6 you would be +6 from your character. Your total bonus on the first roll would be a D10 (assumed) + d8 + 30 + other character powers. That is average of 40 before cool character powers and items/blessings/whatnot.


Frencois wrote:

Good one.

1)
We've always played that allies that you discard to explore and that give a bonus during that exploration should be read as:

"Display this card to explore your location.
While displayed, for you combat check, add 2 for each of your mythic charges.
At the end of the exploration, discard this card"

This way it's clear that it's the number of mythic charge you have when using the displayed power (step 3).

That sounds good to me. In using the power of the displayed ally, would you say that prevents you from using another ally during the check, according to one card per type per player per check?

Frencois wrote:


2)
In step 3, you play the powers affecting the order that you want, as long as legal.
Each evaluate the number of Mythic charges at the time they are played.
Note that sometimes you need to play one card (e. g. to add a trait to the check) before you can play another.

Also, sounds good.


Slacker2010 wrote:
We played it like Frencois. To expand on his statement and your process. Burning the Mythic charges happens after your value is set, after you assemble your dice.

Thank you for your input. Are you saying the charges "expended" aren't removed when you use the power, during step 3, but are only removed in Step 4 (Assemble your Dice)?

Slacker2010 wrote:


I have a better question. Do you really need to burn mythic charges on your first roll? Or you fighting a villain? Because with a typical melee skill is +2, so at set 6 you would be +6 from your character. Your total bonus on the first roll would be a D10 (assumed) + d8 + 30 + other character powers. That is average of 40 before cool character powers and items/blessings/whatnot.

I'd probably be fighting a villain if I'm expending mythic charges.

WotR has been (refreshingly) tough. I'm playing solo b/c I've determined my usual PACG partner would not like WotR's masochistic style, and we don't min/max when we're playing together b/c we're more casual and into the roleplay. When I play alone, when a scenario is down to the wire, I easily spend half-an-hour analyzing my options and potential dice rolls for the final fight; and I make sure the encountering character is loaded up for the final fight of the scenario!


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I add the number of charges I had at the start of the check (before I expended any). Mostly because that is how the sequence of the power reads.

Mythic Guardian

Mythic Guardian wrote:
Add your number of mythic charges to your Strength or Constitution check. Then you may expend 1 or more charges. If you do, when you assemble the dice, for each charge expended, replace 1 of your highest non-d20 dice with a d20...

So, you activate the mythic power during "Play cards and use powers that affect the check." And the first thing you do is add the number of charges you have to your check. Then you expend them. Later, when assembling your dice, you swap in the d20s.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
ayres411 wrote:


That sounds good to me. In using the power of the displayed ally, would you say that prevents you from using another ally during the check, according to one card per type per player per check?

No, it would not - by the same argument that should be more clearly visible on the real Griffon.

The *real* Griffon is NOT played on the check - it does NOT say "you MAY add.." so it's not an option to *play*, but a mandatory lingering static effect that you need to comply with - even if for some reason it would be detrimental to add to your Combat check.
I'd argue that even if it DID say "you MAY add..." - adding would still not count as playing the Griffin per se, but those are murky waters (that I'd rather not get into) - that's why an effort is apparently made that every card the gives you an option (to PLAY) is always "displayed" - so its clear that when you're playing the power - you're also playing the card.
And that's why Frencois "home wording" - while being perhaps more clear in terms of timing- is more likely to create confusion in terms of if the Griffon is being actually "played" on the check.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Longshot11 wrote:


And that's why Frencois "home wording" - while being perhaps more clear in terms of timing- is more likely to create confusion in terms of if the Griffon is being actually "played" on the check.

Agreed.

That's why I didn't ask the text to be replaced by mine.

I just said we played the Griffon text as if it was.... just for the purpose of understanding the Griffon's text.
But it is not like if we really play an ally's power during the check so indeed you can play another ally.

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